Be Fruitful and Multiply (Round 2)

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Moore11 said:
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Walking_Home:
The above is from another thread – but it has bearing on this one. How accepting, understanding, validating – are those with a larger family themselves being — when they go around trying to lay on “guilt trips”/and or what else they can thing of – to coerce others with smaller families – to have a larger number of children. Looks to be – a one way street with the “I accept you as a person, I understand you, and validate your lifestyle”.
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hmmm I never have experienced it the other way around. It seems to me to be society and the culture that is against LARGE families. I have never ever had someone ask me why my wife wasn’t pregnant. ** I have never ever witnessed in person someone “putting a guilt trip” on someone who was honestly living their familial vocation in accordance to God’s will**. In fact i find that I can’t even imagine a scenario in which someone would accost someone else and berate them for not having kids. (how would one know they were not infertile) I just don’t see this at all. But I do see the other way around. My wife, just today was at the store getting some lunch. A lady asked her when her due date was and she said it was in december. The lady asked if it was my wife’s first. My wife said no that it was her fourth and the lady’s smile quickly turned serious, the lady then told my wife to buy a TV.
And that is just today!!! It happens all the time and not just from strangers. My own mother does not want us to have more than 2. Ever.
It isn’t just the on purpose comments as much as it is the innocent attitudes of people everywhere!

The protestant schools in my area offer a sliding scale of tuition based on number of siblings that go there. Decreasing by 25% until the 5 kid who gets to go for free! The Catholic schools. nope. Or even a restaurant that offers kids eat free! They dont mention it is a 1 to 1 ratio (1 kid entree to an adult entree.)

What shocks me is the absolute guts some people have to say to you. From the strangers who tell you what Isle the condoms are located to the family members who refer to you as earth destroying “Breeders”

Funny, I just dont see random big family Catholics going into the stores and asking the young unmarried couple who’s 5 dogs are waiting in the subaru outside why they dont get married and have kids. And I dont see (at least in my family anyway) someone going up to a homosexual family member and asking them why they are contributing depopulation by being a active homosexual. And I dont see someone going up to a divorced person in my family and berating them for a divorce… I guess it happens but perhaps the “guilt” some feel is their own conscience. One of my most obnoxious and vocal critics is a family member who has 2 teenage girls and he got a divorce from his 1st wife and has been shacking up with a girlfriend for 10 years. He is unemployed and makes constant comments to us about using birth control. I realize it is his own guilty conscious talking to him never ever have said anything about his lifestyle. But sometimes seeing a happy married successful couple embrace and be open to life kind of tweaks some nerves on some people who think life is all about money, and what feels good right now.
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Hmmm – you may not have experienced it “the other way around” – but from your posting history in this thread – you sure are dishing it out. And I also find it shocking – the machinations some will go through – to imply that those who have smaller families – are being “selfish”.
 
Walking_Home said:
Hmmm – you may not have experienced it “the other way around” – but from your posting history in this thread – you sure are dishing it out. And I also find it shocking – the machinations some will go through – to imply that those who have smaller families – are being “selfish”.
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You beat me to it. I agree.
 
Walking_Home said:
Hmmm – you may not have experienced it “the other way around” – but from your posting history in this thread – you sure are dishing it out. And I also find it shocking – the machinations some will go through – to imply that those who have smaller families – are being “selfish”.
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The idea that one should be open to life in a marriage is not judgemental or a “mechanism”.
It’s a directive. I think it is quite odd to imply in the time in which we live that those who petition and speak out for and advocate for a change in the way society and yes Catholics view procreation, life, large families, and prayerful discernment. Vs the obvious selfish and luxurious lifestyles that many live. I do not seek to condemn or judge any one individual, I just find it amazing that with all the data out there, apparently posters on CAF are immune to the temptation of this issue. I personally know that I am not immune of putting my wants and desires ahead of God’s and I know that early in my marriage this took the form of ABC and other selfish acts. I know we all bring our own experiences to the table but too many seem very very defensive about this issue if you ask me.
 
Moore11 said:
**The idea that one should be open to life in a marriage is not judgemental or a “mechanism”. **
It’s a directive. I think it is quite odd to imply in the time in which we live that those who petition and speak out for and advocate for a change in the way society and yes Catholics view procreation, life, large families, and prayerful discernment. Vs the obvious selfish and luxurious lifestyles that many live. I do not seek to condemn or judge any one individual, I just find it amazing that with all the data out there, apparently posters on CAF are immune to the temptation of this issue. I personally know that I am not immune of putting my wants and desires ahead of God’s and I know that early in my marriage this took the form of ABC and other selfish acts. I know we all bring our own experiences to the table but too many seem very very defensive about this issue if you ask me.
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I never said that. A couple – who prayerfully discerns – on the spacing their children/number of children – using NFP – are being open to life. As was well explained by ahs – NFP – is not a walk in the park. It takes a lot restraint/effort-- with the help from above – not to give in to the desires for sexual gratification. Some couples can’t handle it – and give in to the “flesh” – and of course this results with more children.
 
Walking_Home said:
I never said that. A couple – who prayerfully discerns – on the spacing their children/number of children – using NFP – are being open to life. As was well explained by ahs – NFP – is not a walk in the park. It takes a lot restraint/effort-- with the help from above – not to give in to the desires for sexual gratification. Some couples can’t handle it – and give in to the “flesh” – and of course this results with more children.
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Yes, that is what I believe too. With the exception of giving into the “flesh” Sometimes with NFP that hard to overcome temptation may be God’s way of nudging a couple. 😉

I have met and talked with many many NFP instructors and students who notice the strange way the “fertile” time seems to be the hardest time to abstain. Could be many factors in this. The idea of “forbidden” time being exciting, hormones, pheromones, God’s push, or just the natural biology of wanting to procreate. I know my wife and I struggle with this as well.

But I know this. As much as I love my wife, it is easy for me to know that if her life was in danger or our marriage or family was in danger every time we pushed the limits of NFP I would never ever risk it. That would be a sad sad excuse for a man that would. I know some couples who practice NFP for medical reasons that are understandably the most conservative and knowledgeable with the method they are using. I know and understand many of these issues personally as well. My wife and I have gone through having a child while having a special needs child, (thankfully she is 100% healed now.) and we have visited the other end of the spectrum where we wanted to postpone childbearing so we could take a vacation. So, you see, for us, the vacation was a frivolous reason, one that was purely selfish. We both came to that conclusion. Now I could see where mentally a couple could decide that a non-pregnant vacation was necessary to the health of the family, individuals, and marriage. That would not be a selfish reason. But for my wife and I it was.

It really comes down to prayer and communication between partners and God. But one can only do this honestly with a pure and knowledgeable understanding of being open to life. One has to be able to look at things theologically, and objectively. With a great deal of introspection. And all too rarely are things done like this in this world.
 
Moore11 said:
The idea that one should be open to life in a marriage is not judgemental or a “mechanism”.
It’s a directive. I think it is quite odd to imply in the time in which we live that those who petition and speak out for and advocate for a change in the way society and yes Catholics view procreation, life, large families, and prayerful discernment. Vs the obvious selfish and luxurious lifestyles that many live. ** I do not seek to condemn or judge any one individual, I just find it amazing that with all the data out there, apparently posters on CAF are immune to the temptation of this issue. I personally know that I am not immune of putting my wants and desires ahead of God’s and I know that early in my marriage this took the form of ABC and other selfish acts. I know we all bring our own experiences to the table but too many seem very very defensive about this issue if you ask me.**
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Your words above I have placed in bold, appear very judgemental to me.
 
severus68 said:
Your words above I have placed in bold, appear very judgemental to me.
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Nice tag teaming you two!

How dare you judge my judgement!😉

Look, if saying that we live in a time and place that is selfish, materialistic, and that many Catholic Christians are not living the faith is judgemental then I guess that God will just have to judge me to the same standard. Personally I think it is quite obvious that with ABC, abortion, and the overall small family mindset that we are in the midst of a crisis. If you disagree then I can only say that I am glad that you have experiences that would lead you to a different conclusion. There is a point at which charity can be misapplied and wrapped though. Sometimes the big scary guy coming at you with a knife really is trying to do you harm and not show you a new knife he bought off of home shopping network. To close ones eyes to a serious and rampant problem, even among Catholics is not only unrealistic but is not what we are called to do.

I call it the NPR approach.
have you ever listened to NPR? They always find some speaker, author or interview that is the opposite of the actual trend. For instance NPR will do an hour on Gay Republicans, or the leader of african americans against obama, or a suntanning eskimo… you get the picture. And while we cannot walk into a Church and point individuals out there is no doubt that we are living in a selfish anti family world and I think it silly to not expect that to creep into our mindsets.
So while a 2 kid family may be what some are called to (NPR) that does not mean that all are called to only have 2 kids.

Getting back to the OP’s situation. I get the idea that they are saying they are “closed” to life after 2 kids. Not “maybe” someday but rather, “I just want 2 kids” I think that is not a truthful way to discern God’s Will. Perhaps I am wrong. But someone somewhere has that attitude. And the Op has had several opportunities to chime in on that not being the case.
What appears judgemental to me is that when a person even a Catholic person with a correct and holy understanding of teaching states that maybe people should be more open to life than they are and suggest that people reexamine their motives it is pounced upon as “judgemental” when those of us with more than 2 kids experience a judgement EVERYDAY by the world. Not only that but it is rather insensitive to those who cannot have children or have a real hard time conceiving. Imagine how those people feel to hear people all over talk about how they cannot be burdened in their lives with more than 2 kids!?

Bottom line is that each of us will “win” this conversation. no one will come away with a changed mind. It is just a different way we both view the world. I can’t compete when people start throwing the “hey, you are so Judgemental” bomb around and tag teaming.

But I am curious as to what dog you two have in the fight? What are your experiences? Do you have a large family or a small one? What is your parish like? What are your experiences with NFP and NFP users? How do you actively promote an atmosphere that is life giving? And how might we all help those who have children not be “burdened” so much? It is worth thinking about.
 
Augustine3 said:
What if a couple only want 2 kids even though they could have more and have no serious reason to limit it to 2, would that be an offence/sin? If so, how serious?
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Remember, that this is the original post. And we all got sidetracked with the “semantics” of the word “serious” But I think the OP’s position is plain as day here. While the OP may not have been meaning to split hairs on the use of the word serious. I get the main idea.

The OP does not want more than 2 kids. The OP dos not have (and this is the important part) what they consider to be “serious” reasons to not have more.

I see nothing judgemental about suggesting to the OP that they may want to reach a more fuller understanding of their vocation of family.

Now I think it was ahs or severus that mentioned NFP lending itself to not have the “result” of 2 kids. And that is kind of correct. But it is not very complimentary of NFP is it? NFP is a hard enough sell as it is without us going around saying "thats ok, you just aim for 2 kids and use NFP. (wink wink) What is important is not the number of children someone has or how many times NFP became too hard and they had another child. What is important to our very souls is the attitude in which we are open to life and how we approach something so sacred. Saying I only want 2 kids is like putting a cap on how many times you wish to receive the eucharist.

The end result is not what matters but rather the state of the persons mind in making the decisions. If someone has an attitude that is closed to life but is bad at NFP that does not make them 'open to life just because they have 5 little “miscalculations” running around. I used to work in a store where most people were unmarried and most people had kids, they all dated and slept with each other they all used protection, and they all had babies. That does not make them “open” to life.
 
Usige said:
Here are the parts of the catechism I think most directly relate to your question (bolding mine):2367 speaks to how we are working with God’s plan in the transmission of life. 2368 speaks against regulating birth for selfish reasons. If one says we cannot have more because they will starve then putting off another child for now might be morally acceptable, but doing so purely for ones own selfish desires is not okay.

I work in the computer field so I make a good living. Because of that my wife has been able to stay home for the 18 years we’ve been married.

In specific school fees are easy because we home school. The two oldest know we will help with school, but they are responsible for making decisions and helping pay for their education (i.e. we will pay for a state school, but they have to cover the difference if they want to go to a private university). We also have a number of friends with kids and we share clothes around. Most kids outgrow their clothes long before they get worn out so we just have a list of which families have kids growing out of what for a given season. With larger families you can also buy in bulk without things going to waste or everyone getting sick of leftovers. Our kids don’t play organized sports or have over scheduled lives with 1000 activities a week. Between the 6 families we spend most our time with we have a total of 40+ kids between us; more than enough for almost any game you could want to play. Plus camping trips are a blast with that many kids around. 😃

Long and short is you just plan and prioritize where you spend money. Funny thing is that we spend more and donate more to charity each year, but always seem to have more to spare. I mark that up to putting my trust in God. The more we have put our trust in him, the more blessed our lives have been.
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wow, amazing life, may the Lord bless you more and more.
 
Moore11 said:
Nice tag teaming you two!

How dare you judge my judgement!😉

Look, if saying that we live in a time and place that is selfish, materialistic, and that many Catholic Christians are not living the faith is judgemental then I guess that God will just have to judge me to the same standard. Personally I think it is quite obvious that with ABC, abortion, and the overall small family mindset that we are in the midst of a crisis. If you disagree then I can only say that I am glad that you have experiences that would lead you to a different conclusion. There is a point at which charity can be misapplied and wrapped though. Sometimes the big scary guy coming at you with a knife really is trying to do you harm and not show you a new knife he bought off of home shopping network. To close ones eyes to a serious and rampant problem, even among Catholics is not only unrealistic but is not what we are called to do.

I call it the NPR approach.
have you ever listened to NPR? They always find some speaker, author or interview that is the opposite of the actual trend. For instance NPR will do an hour on Gay Republicans, or the leader of african americans against obama, or a suntanning eskimo… you get the picture. And while we cannot walk into a Church and point individuals out there is no doubt that we are living in a selfish anti family world and I think it silly to not expect that to creep into our mindsets.
So while a 2 kid family may be what some are called to (NPR) that does not mean that all are called to only have 2 kids.

Getting back to the OP’s situation. I get the idea that they are saying they are “closed” to life after 2 kids. Not “maybe” someday but rather, “I just want 2 kids” I think that is not a truthful way to discern God’s Will. Perhaps I am wrong. But someone somewhere has that attitude. And the Op has had several opportunities to chime in on that not being the case.
What appears judgemental to me is that when a person even a Catholic person with a correct and holy understanding of teaching states that maybe people should be more open to life than they are and suggest that people reexamine their motives it is pounced upon as “judgemental” when those of us with more than 2 kids experience a judgement EVERYDAY by the world. Not only that but it is rather insensitive to those who cannot have children or have a real hard time conceiving. Imagine how those people feel to hear people all over talk about how they cannot be burdened in their lives with more than 2 kids!?

Bottom line is that each of us will “win” this conversation. no one will come away with a changed mind. It is just a different way we both view the world. I can’t compete when people start throwing the “hey, you are so Judgemental” bomb around and tag teaming.

But I am curious as to what dog you two have in the fight? What are your experiences? Do you have a large family or a small one? What is your parish like? What are your experiences with NFP and NFP users? How do you actively promote an atmosphere that is life giving? And how might we all help those who have children not be “burdened” so much? It is worth thinking about.
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You two?

You keep saying you are not judging and you don’t - for awhile and then you make assumptions and judge others. Read what you said about the OP.

You cannot make assumptions about others and it is a matter for them to decide upon. People who want children and cannot conceive can always adopt. I think that is a very holy and good thing to do.

Sorry, but I have no interest in telling others about how many children they should have, questioning them about the children they have. I do not intend to join that crusade.
 
severus68 said:
You two?

You keep saying you are not judging and you don’t - for awhile and then you make assumptions and judge others. Read what you said about the OP.

You cannot make assumptions about others and it is a matter for them to decide upon. People who want children and cannot conceive can always adopt. I think that is a very holy and good thing to do.

Sorry, but I have no interest in telling others about how many children they should have, questioning them about the children they have. I do not intend to join that crusade.
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Exactly.
 
severus68 said:
You two?

You keep saying you are not judging and you don’t - for awhile and then you make assumptions and judge others. Read what you said about the OP.

You cannot make assumptions about others and it is a matter for them to decide upon. People who want children and cannot conceive can always adopt. I think that is a very holy and good thing to do.

Sorry, but I have no interest in telling others about how many children they should have, questioning them about the children they have. I do not intend to join that crusade.
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I dont really understand what you are saying. I am sorry if I upset you.

perhaps you could clarify what position you are coming from personally here.

Or we can just move on…
 
Moore11,

What Walking_Home was pointing out was not the belief that married couples should be open to life…I believe we all agree here. It is in your seeming attitude that couples who only have 2 children are somehow being selfish. The reality is that we cannot know this.

For some reason the OP was under the impression that he had no serious reason. In that case, if he and his wife stop having children, then they are being selfish. However, he also stated his reasons later and said they are using NFP. It appeared to me that the OP was under the impression that even though his reason was serious enough for he and his wife to avoid, that the Church would not see it so. This is incorrect. If he and his wife believe it to be a serious reason, then it is a serious reason. And, as Em_in_Fl pointed out…such should be discerned continuously…such is the nature of NFP.

The default should never be to assume that a couple using NFP is being selfish. The default, if it has been made our business by solicitation(as in this case) should be that we recognize that in using NFP, the couple is conforming their sexuality to God’s Will. Pope JPII gives us proper insight to this in Familiaris Consortio:

[After speaking of the evil of contraception]…When, instead, by means of recourse to periods of infertility, the couple respect the inseparable connection between the unitive and procreative meanings of human sexuality, they are acting as “ministers” of God’s plan and they “benefit from” their sexuality according to the original dynamism of “total” selfgiving, without manipulation or alteration.(90)
In the light of the experience of many couples and of the data provided by the different human sciences, theological reflection is able to perceive and is called to study further the difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle: it is a difference which is much wider and deeper than is usually thought, one which involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality. The choice of the natural rhythms involves accepting the cycle of the person, that is the woman, and thereby accepting dialogue, reciprocal respect, shared responsibility and self- control. To accept the cycle and to enter into dialogue means to recognize both the spiritual and corporal character of conjugal communion and to live personal love with its requirement of fidelity. In this context the couple comes to experience how conjugal communion is enriched with those values of tenderness and affection which constitute the inner soul of human sexuality, in its physical dimension also. In this way sexuality is respected and promoted in its truly and fully human dimension, and is never “used” as an “object” that, by breaking the personal unity of soul and body, strikes at God’s creation itself at the level of the deepest interaction of nature and person. (FC 32)

And before this even, Paul VI states this as well in Humanae Vitae:

Neither the Church nor her doctrine is inconsistent when she considers it lawful for married people to take advantage of the infertile period but condemns as always unlawful the use of means which directly prevent conception, even when the reasons given for the later practice may appear to be upright and serious. In reality, these two cases are completely different. In the former the married couple rightly use a faculty provided them by nature. In the later they obstruct the natural development of the generative process. It cannot be denied that in each case the married couple, for acceptable reasons, are both perfectly clear in their intention to avoid children and wish to make sure that none will result. But it is equally true that it is exclusively in the former case that husband and wife are ready to abstain from intercourse during the fertile period as often as for reasonable motives the birth of another child is not desirable. And when the infertile period recurs, they use their married intimacy to express their mutual love and safeguard their fidelity toward one another. In doing this they certainly give proof of a true and authentic love. (HV 16)
 
Walking_Home said:
The above is from another thread – but it has bearing on this one. How accepting, understanding, validating – are those with a larger family themselves being — when they go around trying to lay on “guilt trips”/and or what else they can thing of – to coerce others with smaller families – to have a larger number of children. Looks to be – a one way street with the “I accept you as a person, I understand you, and validate your lifestyle”.
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Hit the nail on the head, WH. As you usually do.

The double standard and hypocrisy in regards to this subject is absolutely appalling here on CAF.
 
Moore11 said:
I dont really understand what you are saying. I am sorry if I upset you.

perhaps you could clarify what position you are coming from personally here.

Or we can just move on…
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Don’t worry, you have not upset me.
 
I have to admit that I’m sort of saddened to see how many people are apparently throwing away one of the true gifts of the Catholic church.

I’ve never met a large Catholic family that regretted their children no matter how difficult. They may not have fancy houses, but they have homes filled with joyful noise and love.

This rule of Catholic life is a gift to those that follow it, and frankly I wish my church had the same rule - my life would have been even more joy-filled and blessed.
 
benjohnson said:
I have to admit that I’m sort of saddened to see how many people are apparently throwing away one of the true gifts of the Catholic church.

I’ve never met a large Catholic family that regretted their children no matter how difficult. They may not have fancy houses, but they have homes filled with joyful noise and love.

This rule of Catholic life is a gift to those that follow it, and frankly I wish my church had the same rule - my life would have been even more joy-filled and blessed.
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With respect, you did not need a rule to have had as many children as you wanted.
 
benjohnson said:
I have to admit that I’m sort of saddened to see how many people are apparently throwing away one of the true gifts of the Catholic church.

I’ve never met a large Catholic family that regretted their children no matter how difficult. They may not have fancy houses, but they have homes filled with joyful noise and love.

This rule of Catholic life is a gift to those that follow it, and frankly I wish my church had the same rule - my life would have been even more joy-filled and blessed.
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What rule?
 
Debora123 said:
What rule?
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I think he is using rule in the same sense that a religious order of nuns or brothers might have a formal “rule” that they live by(what, when, how they pray, eat, sleep, work, worship etc).
 
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