Be Fruitful and Multiply (Round 2)

[Debora123]

I think he is using rule in the same sense that a religious order of nuns or brothers might have a formal “rule” that they live by(what, when, how they pray, eat, sleep, work, worship etc).

As long as he understands that there is no Catholic “rule” that states couples must have X amount of kids.

 

[bstorm]

You two?

You keep saying you are not judging and you don’t - for awhile and then you make assumptions and judge others. Read what you said about the OP.

You cannot make assumptions about others and it is a matter for them to decide upon. **People who want children and cannot conceive can always adopt. **I think that is a very holy and good thing to do.

Sorry, but I have no interest in telling others about how many children they should have, questioning them about the children they have. I do not intend to join that crusade.

It is a common misconception that infertile couples can just easily adopt. This is simply not true. Unless you want to add insult to injury to those whose struggle with infertility (or adopted children) I would advise you not to repeat those words again. Adoption is not, and in my opinion should not be, just a solution to infertility. I could go on a long rant here, but will stop now, as I do not want to derail this thread.

 

[benjohnson]

As long as he understands that there is no Catholic “rule” that states couples must have X amount of kids.

Forgive me, but I thought that Catholic teaching says that married couples engage in the marital act such that there was a chance for a new life to be created.

Without getting too graphic, and all things being equal, the would tend to increase the size of families.

I certainly wish I followed this teaching (or rule, if you will) - my family would be a lot larger now.

 

[Debora123]

Forgive me, but I thought that Catholic teaching says that married couples engage in the marital act such that there was a chance for a new life to be created.

Without getting too graphic, and all things being equal, the would tend to increase the size of families.

The Church teaches that artificial contraception is wrong but that married couples may use NFP to avoid pregnancy given there is just reason for doing so. For some couples this may mean having 10 children, while for others this may mean having 0 children.

The Church gives no rule on the number of children couples may or may not have.

I certainly wish I followed this teaching (or rule, if you will) - my family would be a lot larger now.

I’m sorry to hear that. Is it too late for more??

 

[Debora123]

It is a common misconception that infertile couples can just easily adopt. This is simply not true. Unless you want to add insult to injury to those whose struggle with infertility (or adopted children) I would advise you not to repeat those words again.

All she was saying is that infertile couples have the option of adopting IF THEY WANT TO. What’s so insulting about that??

 

[ahs]

I have to admit that I’m sort of saddened to see how many people are apparently throwing away one of the true gifts of the Catholic church.

I’ve never met a large Catholic family that regretted their children no matter how difficult. They may not have fancy houses, but they have homes filled with joyful noise and love.

This rule of Catholic life is a gift to those that follow it, and frankly I wish my church had the same rule - my life would have been even more joy-filled and blessed.

I don’t think anyone has apparently thrown away the call of parenthood in this thread, or even alluded towards it. No one has said anything against large families…and some of us posting have large families as well. The main point was that a couple was feeling uncertain about how the Church would view their decision to stop having children right now. It was explained to the OP that 1) there is not a set number of children that a couple must have to show they are “open to life”, and 2) deciding on family size is not a one-time/permanent decision.

Part of this “rule” of Catholic life involves a couple being open to the creation of new life with every conjugal act, yes. But it also involves responsible parenthood. A couple must discern, continuously throughout marriage, what their circumstances are and how “able” they will be to provide for another child emotionally, financially, etc… Indeed children are a blessing, and each child should be seen as such. But that also comes with the reality that children are a responsibility…and every couple has a different threshold for how much responsibility they can handle at any given time in their lives…and yes, with God all things are possible.

 

[severus68]

It is a common misconception that infertile couples can just easily adopt. This is simply not true. Unless you want to add insult to injury to those whose struggle with infertility (or adopted children) I would advise you not to repeat those words again. Adoption is not, and in my opinion should not be, just a solution to infertility. I could go on a long rant here, but will stop now, as I do not want to derail this thread.

I know many who adopt. If you are not too “fussy” and even in the US, if you are willing to adopt older, mixed race, different race, those with health problems, you can within the country itself. I know in Australia it is/was difficult to do so.

In my family, those who have not been able to have children have adopted. I am not insulting anyone so please don’t jump. I was writing in response to a statement that limiting the number of children hurts those who can’t.

I apologise if this is a sensitive issue for you, I had no intentions of upsetting anyone.

 

[bstorm]

I know many who adopt. If you are not too “fussy” and even in the US, if you are willing to adopt older, mixed race, different race, those with health problems, you can within the country itself. I know in Australia it is/was difficult to do so.

In my family, those who have not been able to have children have adopted. I am not insulting anyone so please don’t jump. I was writing in response to a statement that limiting the number of children hurts those who can’t.

I apologise if this is a sensitive issue for you, I had no intentions of upsetting anyone.

I was not offended by your original post. I am simply trying to explain to you that what you stated is not true. Adoption is not an easy solution for infertility. Not every couple can adopt children. Just because you know an infertile couple or two (or even several) that adopted children does not mean that the experience is either universal or easy.

 

[ahs]

I was not offended by your original post. I am simply trying to explain to you that what you stated is not true. Adoption is not an easy solution for infertility. Not every couple can adopt children. Just because you know an infertile couple or two (or even several) that adopted children does not mean that the experience is either universal or easy.

In fairness, severus68 did not say such was “easy” or “universal”. The statement made was a general one. You are reading more into that comment than is really there. The words “easy” or “all” or other words that would suggest ease or universality are simply not present in severus68’s statement.

 

[severus68]

In fairness, severus68 did not say such was “easy” or “universal”. The statement made was a general one. You are reading more into that comment than is really there. The words “easy” or “all” or other words that would suggest ease or universality are simply not present in severus68’s statement.

Thanks. I was making the point that there is a choice. Not all choices are easy or are what a person wants. This all started from a response to someone saying to the effect that those who decide on having a few children would be offending those who can’t have or have difficulty having children.

 

[bstorm]

Thanks. I was making the point that there is a choice. Not all choices are easy or are what a person wants. This all started from a response to someone saying to the effect that those who decide on having a few children would be offending those who can’t have or have difficulty having children.

I will repeat here what you wrote: “People who want children and cannot conceive can always adopt.” The word “always” implies that adoption is possible for every single infertile couple. I am simply trying to tell you that it is not. Also there is a connotation that adoption is supposed to be some treatment for infertility. Again, it is not.

BTW, the poster who commented on how the conversation about limiting children is perceived by those with difficulty having children was right at least in part. From my point of view, children are being reduced to something you can choose to obtain (usual way, the adoption, treatment) or choose not to obtain (contraception, NFP). Just like you choose to buy something in the store. This mindset is, in my opinion, a reflection of our materialistic consumerist society. Children are not a choice. They are a gift.

 

[severus68]

I will repeat here what you wrote: “People who want children and cannot conceive can always adopt.” The word “always” implies that adoption is possible for every single infertile couple. I am simply trying to tell you that it is not. Also there is a connotation that adoption is supposed to be some treatment for infertility. Again, it is not.

BTW, the poster who commented on how the conversation about limiting children is perceived by those with difficulty having children was right at least in part. From my point of view, children are being reduced to something you can choose to obtain (usual way, the adoption, treatment) or choose not to obtain (contraception, NFP). Just like you choose to buy something in the store. This mindset is, in my opinion, a reflection of our materialistic consumerist society. Children are not a choice. They are a gift.

Yes, it is a choice. It may cost a lot if you have to adopt from overseas, it is easier to adopt a older child than a baby. No, never said or implied it was a treatment for infertility. I gather treatment for infertility can cost and it can be more than a little uncomfortable for a woman.

I disagree with your view on limiting the number of children. It is not for us to make assumptions or judge decisions made by couples. It is between them and God. Adoption is about adding a child to your family and giving a home to a child. It is a good and holy choice. It is nothing about being materialistic. I think I will end here as for one I cannot understand your reasoning.

 

[whm]

As long as he understands that there is no Catholic “rule” that states couples must have X amount of kids.

I think it has to do with prayerfully accepting the difficulties and sufferings that life throws at you. But can’t say for sure what the other poster meant.

 

[Superkind]

The only reason Catholics are against birth control is because you people are brainwashed and the Catholic Church is a big money-making industry that feeds off of your big families. There are enough people in the world eh? The church wants you to breed like rabbits so they ultimately get more money from all you and all your good money-giving catholic children. Why do you think everything is guided in the Catholic Church?

 

[ahs]

The only reason Catholics are against birth control is because you people are brainwashed and the Catholic Church is a big money-making industry that feeds off of your big families. There are enough people in the world eh? The church wants you to breed like rabbits so they ultimately get more money from all you and all your good money-giving catholic children. Why do you think everything is guided in the Catholic Church?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That’s too funny! It’s been awhile since I’ve heard this one.

If you really think this is the case and want to discuss it, please open a new thread so as not to derail this one.

 

[severus68]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That’s too funny! It’s been awhile since I’ve heard this one.

If you really think this is the case and want to discuss it, please open a new thread so as not to derail this one.

 

[benjohnson]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That’s too funny! It’s been awhile since I’ve heard this one.

He’s is of course incorrect.

Even us Lutherans know that Catholics don’t have lots of children for the all the wonderful money and gold… They have them so they can eat them.

 

[ValPal]

I will repeat here what you wrote: “People who want children and cannot conceive can always adopt.” The word “always” implies that adoption is possible for every single infertile couple. I am simply trying to tell you that it is not. Also there is a connotation that adoption is supposed to be some treatment for infertility. Again, it is not.

I just randomly quoted a post to use as a launching post for dissertation.

It’s is true that couples can’t “always” adopt in the absolute sense. There are certain factors that will likely exclude a person from adopting. Certain criminal activities is the major one. In particular, anything pertaining to crimes against children, and domestic violence. If you’ve done any of these, forget about adopting. Same with certain violent felonies. Poverty is also a consideration; if you can’t support the child, then they’re not going to let you adopt. Age, health, and certain other factors come into play if they affect one’s ability to take care of the child.

Other than that, you’re good to go.

It often isn’t “easy,” as other implied, but that doesn’t mean it won’t happen. For any adoption involving a governmental agency, lots of paperwork will be involved. It will include income tax returns, background checks, etc. It really isn’t a big deal, it just seems to be in the day of “give it to me now.”

What often happens, and I’ve seen it plenty of times, is that people impose unreasonable requirements on the adoption which greatly lessens their chance of adopting. For example, the baby must be of a certain age, sex, race, has to look like one of the parents, etc. I lose patience when I hear these stories.

We’ve adopted two girls from China, and both are truly extraordinary people.

 

[ValPal]

BTW, the poster who commented on how the conversation about limiting children is perceived by those with difficulty having children was right at least in part. From my point of view, children are being reduced to something you can choose to obtain (usual way, the adoption, treatment)

This is an incredibly derogatory view of those that choose to adopt.

Children are not a choice.

My wife and I made the choice to adopt abandoned children.

God gives us the ability to reason and make choices.

 

[severus68]

This is an incredibly derogatory view of those that choose to adopt.

My wife and I made the choice to adopt abandoned children.

God gives us the ability to reason and make choices.

I agree.