Be honest. Do you attend Mass, or know someone that attends Mass, looking for "abuses"?

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Bohm_Bawerk

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Sometimes knowledge can be a dangerous thing. For a very long time, I’ve seen posters regularly post about the alleged abuses they witness during Mass. They point to a small paragraph in a book (GIRM?) and they say: “Oh, XYZ Mass has XYZ abuses”. You then get a multitude of posters cheering the OP on and saying “Report it to the Bishop”.

To me, it just seems as if people want to get priests in trouble. They want to show how knowledgable they are by boasting about how much they memorized the GIRM/Cathecism, and they then go to Mass looking for “abuses”. They aren’t there to worship God. They are there to get priests into trouble.

I think priests have quite a hard time in today’s society. Even some of their own flock are out to get them. Reminds me of the prophetic biblical verse: “Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me” (Psalm 41:9).

Do you attend Mass looking for abuses, or do you know someone that does?
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
Sometimes knowledge can be a dangerous thing. For a very long time, I’ve seen posters regularly post about the alleged abuses they witness during Mass. They point to a small paragraph in a book (GIRM?) and they say: “Oh, XYZ Mass has XYZ abuses”. You then get a multitude of posters cheering the OP on and saying “Report it to the Bishop”.

To me, it just seems as if people want to get priests in trouble. They want to show how knowledgable they are by boasting about how much they memorized the GIRM/Cathecism, and they then go to Mass looking for “abuses”. They aren’t there to worship God. They are there to get priests into trouble.

I think priests have quite a hard time in today’s society. Even some of their own flock are out to get them. Reminds me of the prophetic biblical verse: “Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me” (Psalm 41:9).

Do you attend Mass looking for abuses, or do you know someone that does?
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I imagine there are people like this. But no, I don’t go to mass looking for abuses, nor do I know anyone who does. I can imagine there are people who do, but I don’t imagine it’s many. Whenever I recognize an abuse in mass, it’s not because I’m looking for it; I just happen to notice it. It’s not even very often at all, except if I travel. In my home parish, I attribute most inconsistencies with just simple mistakes; it happens. But, when I travel, I do go to masses occasionally in which I see abuse after abuse, and many, if not most of these, can’t be just attributed to mistake.

When we’re talking about things like, a priest not holding his hands in praying position, okay, simple mistake, probably. But when we’re talking about things like deliberately and consistently rearranging and modifying, and sometimes even completely deleting or recomposing parts of the mass, that is extremely dangerous and completely unacceptable. It not only is wrong in and of itself, but it reinforces a sense of, “I can do whatever I want, the Missal doesn’t matter,” in the guilty priest, deacon, or lay ministers. Those kinds of things can’t be mistakes, especially if they’re consistent.

So, are there liturgy police in the world? Probably. Are most people who notice abuses liturgy police? I’d say, “No.” The Church has a very firm stance on the perfect way to worship God. We should respect and uphold that, even if it means turning the cantor in to Father, or Father in to His Excellency/Eminence.
 
I attend Mass to worship the Almighty God, to offer thanks, praise and sacrifice. To stand in awe and in fear, and to be grateful that He has given us our lives and His only Son to redeem us.

The abuses, however, smack me in the face. I don’t look for them, I try to ignore them. When I see them, I focus on Christ in the tabernacle.

Priests making jokes on the altar interrupting the consecration
Priests dancing and raising their hands and clapping
Priests ad-libbing and making the Mass as banal and unholy as possible
etc

I don’t look for this, it smacks me in the face. If I were to actively look for abuses, I would struggle to attend Mass.
 
I don’t go ‘looking’ for abuses, but once you’ve been trained in evaluating Liturgy it’s very difficult not to ‘notice’ abuses. So difficult in fact that I often spend most of the Mass with my eyes closed to ignore some of the most blatant ones in my parish: priest refusing to genuflect at all (no, he has no hidden ailments and he’s been doing that for the 12 years that I’ve known him); passing the ciborium around like a candy dish for the altar servers and EMHCs to help themselves and then priest and ministers all consuming at the same time; refusing to purify the vessels and insisting that the EMHCs do it, etc.
 
To the self-appointed Liturgical police I quote the words of St John of the Cross:

“Some souls suffer from another kind of spiritual anger. They watch over others with a kind of restless fervour, perpetually annoyed by the transgressions they perceive. The impulse arises to reprove the other souls in an angry way. Sometimes they even indulge this nasty urge, elevating themselves as masters of virtue. This is all quite contrary to spiritual meekness.”
 
Bohm_Bawerk said:
Do you attend Mass looking for abuses, or do you know someone that does?
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No one is going to answer in the affirmative because no God-fearing Catholic goes to mass just to look for abuses.

No one consciously does it.

However, speaking for myself, CAF has made me ultra sensitive to these things. And if we are honest with ourselves, some of us will realize that we probably have “aha! wait till I post this on CAF” moments.

This is where prayer and humility come in.

Some things should be reported. But I believe the majority of things warrant prayer and patience.
 
I don’t attend mass looking for abuses. I also do not know anyone personally who attends looking for abuses or who has ever even complained about such things.

Until I came to CAF about a year ago, I did not even know that these kinds of complaints were on people’s minds. I do think that we see a disproportionate amount of liturgical abuse concerns represented here on the forums simply because it is a place for people to share their observations and concerns. It does appear though, that there are a few people out there who enjoy taking on the role of “policing” and I suspect these people are well known to the bishop after lodging several complaints. Most of the general population attending mass comes with the right intention, I believe.

Yes, I agree. Being a priest is a very difficult job and their responsibilities are no light matter. They deserve our trust, respect, and prayers.

I think that it is beneficial to try to keep our minds away from trying to find abuses and wondering if each and every little variation we see from parish to parish is evidence of an abuse.

We must enter the kingdom of heaven like little children, right?
 
Actually, could turn the question around to “Do you attend Mass, or know someone that attends Mass, deliberately intending to do things that are in violation of the GIRM?” This could be musicians, EMHC’s, lectors, etc. This could be to advance an agenda, promote their own vision of “the church”, push the envelope, be creative, etc. Whatever their motives are really does not matter. Their intentions may be good, who knows. But, if everyone would take time to learn what is given to us for the Mass by Holy Mother Church and be humbly obedient to following the guidelines, I believe that there would be less people that are perceived as “liturgy police” looking for abuses.
 
No, absolutely not. Whenever I go to mass to a new church I always hope there will be no abuses. I find the idea of people going in order to police absurd. I can’t imagine anyone actually doing that.
 
No, but I notice them when they occur. Music is the main thing I notice. Yikes. But whatcha gonna do?
 
Asperges_Me said:
Actually, could turn the question around to “Do you attend Mass, or know someone that attends Mass, deliberately intending to do things that are in violation of the GIRM?” This could be musicians, EMHC’s, lectors, etc. This could be to advance an agenda, promote their own vision of “the church”, push the envelope, be creative, etc. Whatever their motives are really does not matter. Their intentions may be good, who knows. But, if everyone would take time to learn what is given to us for the Mass by Holy Mother Church and be humbly obedient to following the guidelines, I believe that there would be less people that are perceived as “liturgy police” looking for abuses.
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This is an excellent response. However, I think that they are also not deliberately out to subvert the Mass. I think they are well-intentioned people who don’t know, have never been taught, were taught but didn’t understand, etc. Many people assisting with Mass were trained by the volunteer ahead of them, who told them what Fr So and So told him back when he started doing this 10 years ago. Fr So and So, not a gifted liturgist, was in a hurry that day and didn’t explain things clearly. etc. etc. And so people continue from day to day doing things not quite right and ad libbing as their creativity inspires them. The new Fr X, also not a gifted liturgist, doesn’t want to rock the boat, doesn’t really have time to retrain everyone and so it goes.

Phemie brought up a different point, which is the priest doing things he has obviously not never been taught and couldn’t defend. However, he is also the only priest for 2 or 3 parishes, is stretched thin and the Bishop is very unlikely to say anything.

We need to all be praying for an increase in vocations (all vocations) and good and holy priests who will celebrate Mass correctly and reverently.
 
I chase a perpertual state of grace, through the churchs and the membanes of my mind. I know of no other place in the world to be forgiven my sins. Truly a Blessing the Church is. .
 
thistle said:
To the self-appointed Liturgical police I quote the words of St John of the Cross:

“Some souls suffer from another kind of spiritual anger. They watch over others with a kind of restless fervour, perpetually annoyed by the transgressions they perceive. The impulse arises to reprove the other souls in an angry way. Sometimes they even indulge this nasty urge, elevating themselves as masters of virtue. This is all quite contrary to spiritual meekness.”
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@Thistle…Great quote.
 
Just like spelling and grammar errors irritate me when I read something in print, liturgical abuses stick out like a sore thumb when I experience them. Twelve years ago, when I returned to the Church after a twelve year absence, I didn’t know what the GIRM was. All I had was my childhood experiences of Mass, two times a week, in schools and parishes where not much liturgical abuse happened. I knew the Mass well by heart and I knew by instinct what was, and was not, allowed.

Therefore, when I returned to the Church and found myself in a Newman Center where liturgical abuses were egregious and commonplace, I naturally complained. Mostly to my fellow parishioners. Sometimes loudly enough to be overheard by staff or clergy. I was rather indiscreet in my complaints and not charitable. And that contributed to a very adversarial relationship between me and the leadership. Since then, I have learned to keep my mouth shut in public. These forums provide a safe, anonymous place to share concerns about liturgical issues. I do not volunteer my parish or diocese and I do not denigrate clergy, but it is the responsibility of the faithful to exercise our right to a properly-celebrated liturgy. If we don’t stand up against abuses, then who will do it? If we don’t notify the pastor and bishop with our complaints, then how will they know anything is wrong?

I am generously blessed these days to be living in a parish with a pastor who is orthodox and faithful, who says the black and does the red. I have never once been compelled to complain about the celebration of the Mass or other rites here. In fact, I have learned much about what is permitted by observation of the faithful celebration of liturgies. I pray that this spirit will catch on in the seminaries and in far-flung parishes, and that many others can be inspired by faithful pastors such as mine.

I don’t think anyone is happy to find liturgical abuses committed, I am sure we all pray for unity and obedience in our pastors. I just believe that the Catholic Answers Forums are a good place to share our unique experiences and for the doubtful to determine what is truly permitted and right when it comes to liturgical celebration.
 
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