Be Tolerant at ground Zero

[JHow]

…PS: Regarding the comment on the Nazi flag, the Nazi’s happened to take a very important symbol from my faith and turned it into a sign that will be forever associated with evil. Why do most people not know that? Because we don’t dwell on it. Why do we not dwell on it? Because It’s what’s inside you that’s important, not someone else’s insult to you. Who is hurt by the insult? The person issuing the insult, the person who lives a life unreachable by insult? Be the latter and not the former, grasshopper

Your friend
Sufjon

Sufjon, can you clarify something for me? As referenced above, which faith of yours was the swastika a symbol of? Your tag line seems to indicate you are agnostic. It is my understanding the symbol has been used by many traditions over time. Just curious. JHow

 

[Splinker]

You mean like Kosovo, where we liberated muslims?

North Korea is too risky because they have thousands of missiles pointed at millions of our allies in South Korea.

Are you claiming that you would prefer Saddam’s rule in Iraq?

I think we’d be better off economically and in costs of American lives, if we left Saddam in power and never invaded Iraq. Iraq was the leash that held Iran. Now Iran has no leash.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I think we’d be better off economically and in costs of American lives, if we left Saddam in power and never invaded Iraq. Iraq was the leash that held Iran. Now Iran has no leash.

Iran now has US military bases and air strips on both sides of their nation. I’m not sure what you mean by no leash.

 

[JHow]

Iran now has US military bases and air strips on both sides of their nation. I’m not sure what you mean by no leash.

Not to mention Iran’s support for the insurgency in Iraq. While not formally declared war, we are engaged with Iran already. The leash is being tried (and chewed on) every day.

 

[jfmarm81]

I read a post earlier that said that the fact that the building was damaged by a plane during the attacks is a lie. Where did that informaton come from? In fact, in aerial pictures of the area taken right after 9/11, a blue tarp can be seen over the buildingfro where it was damaged. Is that all part of some coverup I’m missing? I’d like to see some sources that it wasn’t damaged…

 

[KathleenGee]

Some debris fell on that building they are going to use.

There are also a number of Christian churches at the WTC that were damaged by the attack, and still are not being able to rebuild due to political red tape. To build this site…and if you saw the plans, it is a tribute to Islam…most prominent of anything there. Definitely political…and imposing.

People miss the point that many imams throughout the world tried to tell this group not to do it. Most insensitive and the imams themselves admitting it is coming across as an economic triumphant symbol…over dead bodies.

Did America do the same…erect triumph monuments in Europe and Korea, Japan and the Pacific? I know after the war, the Americans did alot of humanitarian work for those living in formerly enemy lands. It rebuilt the auto industry in Japan. An American executive was able to pass ideas on to the Japanese that American auto manufacturers were not open to, and the rest is history.

Kosovo…that is the place where I saw a Muslim run across the roof and knock the cross off the Orthodox church down to the jeering crowd below…so they took over more churches and turned them into mosques with America’s help…

 

[Sufjon]

You mean like Kosovo, where we liberated muslims?

North Korea is too risky because they have thousands of missiles pointed at millions of our allies in South Korea.

Are you claiming that you would prefer Saddam’s rule in Iraq?

YOUR STATEMENT: “North Korea is too risky because they have thousands of missiles pointed at millions of our allies in South Korea.”

MY QUESTION BACK TO YOU: So, are 100,000 or more deaths in Iraq are more acceptable? What is the line of demarcation between the acceptable number of deaths and an unacceptable number of deaths? Are not the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi citizens who were killed as much our allies as the Allies you have mentioned in Asia? Maybe not political allies, but allies in that they are children of the same God?

YOUR QUESTION: “Are you claiming that you would prefer Saddam’s rule in Iraq?”

MY REPLY: Of course not. But I don’t think that killing people is an acceptable way to stop people from killing people. We are endowed as humans with mental resources that enable us to find better solutions than that. In fact, as humans we are given the challenge from God to use the intellect He gave us to do the right thing in the least destructive manner possible. There were many less expensive and less lethal ways of dealing with Saddam Hussein. My heartfelt opinion is that we allowed Saddam’s evil to draw us into evil. You can justify the whole episode to yourself and perhaps most people, but never to me. For me, it will always be very simple. My belief is that I am called upon bu God to avoid violence in deed and in thought to the point where it becomes absolutely unavoidable. That means exploring EVERY avenue first. I see no evidence this was done in the case of Iraq.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

Sufjon, can you clarify something for me? As referenced above, which faith of yours was the swastika a symbol of? Your tag line seems to indicate you are agnostic. It is my understanding the symbol has been used by many traditions over time. Just curious. JHow

Hi JHOW: Absolutely, I have explained it many time before:

I am agnostic when it comes to Christianity and Abrahamic religions in general. I am told by the great saints from my faith that all paths to God are equally acceptable to God and that they are to be respected and revered as such. So, I do honor Christianity, but I find it very confusing, especially when I see the dialogs between various Christian groups. There doesn’t seem to be a whole lot of agreement beyond some basics. Because of this, I frequent this forum in the hopes that asking questions and occasional engagement of opinion sharing will help me to have a fuller understanding and appreciation of your faith, as well as put me more at ease with it. I fully accept that Jesus was God in human flesh, but beyond that, I find the faith traditions of His followers diverse and somewhat confusing. That may well be attributable to my lack of understanding, but I am certainly trying.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

I wasn’t quite as interested in who is right – Muslems or individuals in the U.S. (among whom we do count Muslems, might I add). Instead, I was concerned that in a Catholic forum, we find such obvious distaste, even hatred, pointed at anyone, however “deserving” we might feel them to be. Certainly it is the case that “all Muslems” haven’t been active participants in the decision to erect a Mosque at Ground Zero–I know that if I were in the shoes of a Muslem, I’d feel frustrated that I was personally being blamed for something I might also disagree with. Who has been in charge, here? Have “Muslems” been given a voice? Has each member of that faith tradition weighed in, expressing support of this decision? Just as it’s uncomfortable for “All Catholics” to be blamed for the few priests who molested children, it’s also unfair anytime we blame a whole category of people for the behaviors, thoughts or feelings of a select few. The reason why racism, classicsm, and sexism is so stupid, is because we can never relegate all members of any category to one standard truth that applies to each one of them. It’s not possible. If you think of all the categories to which you belong – by your gender, your ethnicity, your nationality, your religion, etc. – you certainly would not wish to be lumped into a massive stereotype, one by one, as it would never truly represent the human being you are. It’s never fair, and in any case, it’s never Christian, to exhibit such behavior. That’s what I was hoping to remind the posters . . . Jesus never exhibited an example that would lead His followers to condemn an entire group of people . . .or even one person.

Nicely said Light1111.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[jfmarm81]

In regards to Saddam Houssein and Iraq, I think that between 1991 and 2003 we did explore other options. In 1993, Houssein sent agents into Kuwait to assassinate former president George HW Bush. In reply, Bill Clinton ordered the bombing of the Iraqi intelligence agency at 2am when there was nobody there. (Source: Why America Slept, by Gerald Posner, 2003)
Throughout the 1990’s and into the 2000’s, it was widely known that Houssein played cat and mouse with weapons inspectors. While it has been shown that there were no WMD’s in Iraq, Houssein certainly left the impression that there was by toying with UN inspectors. He aslo ingnored warnings and condemnations by the UN.
As much as I don’t think the war was a smart idea, I think that other avenues were explored. After a while, there seemed to be no other option. I was against the war because I felt that we were already at war with Afghanistan, and shouldn’t spread ourselves thin with two different wars. However, others felt different…
But, it’s not like we hadn’t tried the peaceful option already…

 

[Sufjon]

In regards to Saddam Houssein and Iraq, I think that between 1991 and 2003 we did explore other options. In 1993, Houssein sent agents into Kuwait to assassinate former president George HW Bush. In reply, Bill Clinton ordered the bombing of the Iraqi intelligence agency at 2am when there was nobody there. (Source: Why America Slept, by Gerald Posner, 2003)
Throughout the 1990’s and into the 2000’s, it was widely known that Houssein played cat and mouse with weapons inspectors. While it has been shown that there were no WMD’s in Iraq, Houssein certainly left the impression that there was by toying with UN inspectors. He aslo ingnored warnings and condemnations by the UN.
As much as I don’t think the war was a smart idea, I think that other avenues were explored. After a while, there seemed to be no other option. I was against the war because I felt that we were already at war with Afghanistan, and shouldn’t spread ourselves thin with two different wars. However, others felt different…
But, it’s not like we hadn’t tried the peaceful option already…

Thank you jfmarm8: Yes, I know we explored other options, but the fact that we didn’t find an effective one means we didn’t explore them all. The route eventually taken was messy, destructive and the long range outcome is that we may have set the stage for even more of the same in the long-term. I expect the people we pay handsomely with our taxes to make better decisions than that,especially when even I could think of many more options and I’m not even paid for it.

For me, one of the hardest parts was the money. The fact that my tax money was used made me an enabler to this behavior in an indirect way, and this is very much out of line with my personal code of conduct to ever be involved in such a thing. There were wars and affronts to God before I came to this world, and there will be more of the same after I am gone. My choice is not to be part of it. If someone takes advantage of me, harms me or kills me because my non-violent approach at some point becomes ineffective, then so be it. My focus is on infinitely more important things, and my hope is that my approach will properly serve the glory of God’s creation. I will have done what I thought best.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Mikeoffaith]

This place was going to be named the Cordoba Mosque…and we now all know what happened to the non-Muslims during the Sharia compliant occupation of Spain by Islam.

This crowd wanted the Cordoba mosque site to start on September 11…and to say this is no conquest symbol?

One of the top imams in the world wrote a public letter to the Pope and said many Muslim imams in the world felt doing this in NYC was wrong…and that the attack at the World Trade Center was not an attack against Christianity but against America as the world economic top power. So the attacks were economic…and to place this Cordoba building at the economic center of the world was indeed a statement of conquest.

Please please please do not listen to the flower power words of these Islamacist characters in New York…check out their Marxist/socialist supporters or with those affluent and powerful Americans who are in secret clubs that use Islam symbols and facilitated this group…do not listen to what they say…they will see you as fools anyway…but watch what they do and who they associate with…and their history of how they treat our people once they are here — suing, intimidation, money laundering…fraud.

September 11 means something to the Islamicist militants…do a search and find out yourselves on what this means to them, and what September means to them in general.

The Muslim Brotherhood – contemporary Militant Islam – that comes out of Babylonia thousands of years ago and is continually at war…be it through Islam or as the former spirit of Amalek – this evil entity just declared war on America in September…the month of Mary, Mother of Sorrows.

There are the Muslims of Mecca who are peaceful. Then there are the Muslims of Medina who worked to take over our holy places, the source of the origin of our beliefs…now many Christians are being forced to flee the Holy Land…is this what Christ warned about in Scriptures…?..I don’t know. But I am also hearing as of last night that the South Sudan which is Christian, has been suffering Muslim atrocities for many years and now are facing the Arabs and their possible liquidation.

This is genocide…but it is in the name of Allah, of God the creator…this is not God but sheer evil.

Now my exit from this thread…

And where is the Pope when you need the call for a good old fashion crusade against the muslim hoard? Benedict, are you listening?

 

[KathleenGee]

Christianity in itself did not spread by the sword, and it failed in its Crusades.

I believe it will be the Blessed Mother who will help us bring Muslims to Christianity… I have heard Muslim imams on You Tube that they think they are loosing many to conversions to Christianity.

What I am opposing are the wolves in sheep clothing who were opposed – by the majority of reasonable imams as well as the vast majority of Americans – NOT to build the mosque there in NYC because the attack was economic…and it is perceived as a symbol of conquest…and the name of the mosque…Cordoba…

Do not support these specific people. There are already mosques in the area…but this one reeks of conquest, its look most ostentatious…and unreciprocal…don’t expect these same people to give non Muslims the same rights. The NYC imam, a bad slum lord, and a supporter of Hamas, wants Sharia in America…

Pray, do penance, and looking at history, defend our people, our faith, and our humanity. Turn to the one true religion, Christianity and the true Church, the universal apostolic church, the Catholic Church…the bark of Peter…on these present stormy seas…

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

MY QUESTION BACK TO YOU: So, are 100,000 or more deaths in Iraq are more acceptable?

Isn’t that the estimated outside number of Kurds that were killed while Saddam Hussein was in power?

There were anywhere from 50,000 to 100,000 Kurds that were killed that can be directly link to one person, Saddam Hussein. If anytime there was a reason for a just was it was then, but no action came from the international community to stop it, it was taken only when Saudi Arabia was threaten by such a loose cannon as Saddam (when Iraq invaded Kuwait) did we get involved. The reason (probably the only real reason) American gov’t got bogged down with a war in Iraq is the Saudi monarchy.

 

[benidict]

So, when are we headed to North Korea or a dozen other places that don’t have oil but do have plenty of tyranny and brutality?

Your friend,
Sufjon

if this was about oil, we simply would have lifted the sanctions on iraq. and also we are in korea. we occupy the DMZ there. germany didnt attack us in WW2, but we went after them anyway, thank God. the right thing to do there would have been to go straight on to the soviet union. it was unfortunate that we didnt. the right thing here would be to exit iraq, via iran. but again. that is not going to happen. lets not forget, we also got involved when Muslims were being massacred in bosnia. that also was the right thing to do. we should have gotten involved in rawanda. we possibly could have saved many lives. so in answer to your question. we have been many places that do not produce oil. and no. killing is not killing. if i am walking through a park, and your grandmother is getting attacked by someone, should i just walk on, when i have the means to stop the attack? i would be just as guilty as the one attacking your grandmother. and if i have to kill the assailant, so be it. it is justifiable homicide in the eyes of the law, and in the eyes of God.

 

[benidict]

Thank you jfmarm8: Yes, I know we explored other options, but the fact that we didn’t find an effective one means we didn’t explore them all. The route eventually taken was messy, destructive and the long range outcome is that we may have set the stage for even more of the same in the long-term. I expect the people we pay handsomely with our taxes to make better decisions than that,especially when even I could think of many more options and I’m not even paid for it.

For me, one of the hardest parts was the money. The fact that my tax money was used made me an enabler to this behavior in an indirect way, and this is very much out of line with my personal code of conduct to ever be involved in such a thing. There were wars and affronts to God before I came to this world, and there will be more of the same after I am gone. My choice is not to be part of it. If someone takes advantage of me, harms me or kills me because my non-violent approach at some point becomes ineffective, then so be it. My focus is on infinitely more important things, and my hope is that my approach will properly serve the glory of God’s creation. I will have done what I thought best.

Your friend
Sufjon

high ideals until your staring down the barrel of a weapon. and again, if i came across you in this situation, im sorry, i wouldnt let you become a martyr. that is MY responsibility before my Creator. and i will defend to the death, your right to hold your views. oh. and just for the record. i am at this time sitting next to an iraqi Catholic who has suffered persecution over here. he has come back to his country to help build it back up. he is glad we are here. as are many many Muslims. i work with them too.

 

[benidict]

The people at FOX News like Sean Hannity and Glenn Beck have on numerous occasions announced that the proposed Islamic community center near Ground Zero is planned to open on Sept. 11 of next year i.e the 10th anniversary of the event.

This is nothing but an ill-intent and bare-faced lie and if any of the FOX News presenters like Beck and Hannity had even an ounce of professional integrity and decency within them, they would apologize for helping spread this brazen untruth.

And is there another example of a bare-faced lie that the opponents of the Park51 project have manufactured out of thin air?

Well, I would say that the story that part of the landing gear of an airplane fell on the Burlington Coat Factory building on the morning of Sept. 11 is another example of their shameless lies.

People like Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer have continually spread this story without even giving a shred of evidence to support their claim that a part of the landing gear fell on the building… and sadly, the media and many others seem to have swallowed this story hook, line and sinker.

I do not believe a word of this story and I think that it is a complete fabrication without an iota of truth which has been manufactured and spread by people who have an agenda to stop the Park51 project.

as opposed to what? the bald face lies of cnn and msnbc and company? you crack me up!

 

[benidict]

The problem is…

…ven’t seen any widespread public disaproval of this proposal from Muslims.

(shrug)

this could be because they are afraid for their lives to make such an opposition my friend. there are elements in this “tolerant” faith, that would kill them even in the U.S. if they made such a stand. peace to you and yours.

 

[benidict]

True while that may be, one has to remember: We live in a “free country,” but one still must have power, in order to have their voice be heard. I for one have been very much against the two wars we are fighting overseas, but my voice was never heard. I attended anti-war rallies, and witnessed the many tens of thousands who joined me in our march. On TV and in the newspapers, they showed the faces of teenagers with mohawks, who were texting on their cell phones, as the representatives of the march. It was tactical; it made the whole purpose seem trivial, even wasteful. I don’t tend to look down on those teenagers, but the purpose of showing them instead of the formally-dressed professorial types was evident.

You don’t always have a voice; you need a platform in order to be heard. I doubt very much the media is eager to provide Muslems with such a platform.

At the end of the day, whether “All Muslems” agree with the erection of a Mosque at Ground Zero, or not – it’s still not Christlike to speak negatively about this group of individuals. Another thing to consider is this: Muslems have obviously faced terrible persecution since 9/11. Why would they willingly (as a group) invite further contention? I’ve heard many Muslems express a desire to be seen as the peace-keeping people they are, when holding true to the value system of their religion. The terrorists hold a skewed view of the Koran–one that is not shared by the mainstream members of that faith.

i love it when people use the phrase, " its not Christ like to do this or that." really? lets see. he had some harsh things to say about the pharisees. he had some harsh things to say about the sadducees. he called a samaritan woman a dog. he got angry, cursed a fig tree, then proceeded to beat the tar out of the money changers in the temple. the Jesus i follow, is not the watered down weak character those on the left, would have us believe in. the Jesus of the bible is completely different. also he was the one who appeared to Moses in the burning bush. sure did a number on the egyptian king. not to mention all the blood he directed be shed in the promised land, when the israelites entered it.Jesus is not just loving and kind, he also is just. what persecution have the Muslims faced in the U.S. since 9-11? i havent seen any mass murders or torture used against these people. what there is, is people questioning them, and disagreeing with them. is that persecution? what terrible persecution have they faced?

 

[Sufjon]

if this was about oil, we simply would have lifted the sanctions on iraq. and also we are in korea. we occupy the DMZ there. germany didnt attack us in WW2, but we went after them anyway, thank God. the right thing to do there would have been to go straight on to the soviet union. it was unfortunate that we didnt. the right thing here would be to exit iraq, via iran. but again. that is not going to happen. lets not forget, we also got involved when Muslims were being massacred in bosnia. that also was the right thing to do. we should have gotten involved in rawanda. we possibly could have saved many lives. so in answer to your question. we have been many places that do not produce oil. and no. killing is not killing. if i am walking through a park, and your grandmother is getting attacked by someone, should i just walk on, when i have the means to stop the attack? i would be just as guilty as the one attacking your grandmother. and if i have to kill the assailant, so be it. it is justifiable homicide in the eyes of the law, and in the eyes of God.

Hi benidict:

-If your grandmother is being attacked in a park there is little time to formulate anotherany other plan than to act immediately. We had lots of time to be smart about Saddam. The fact that we were unable unwilling to find a smart solution doesn’t make it fine in my thinking to fall back to a messy and lethal one. You are free to think what you like. I just disagree with you.

Your friend
Sufjon