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Sufjon
Guest
Hi JHow:
-Stalin was in no position to start a world war. Without his initial alliance with Hitler he would never have been so bold.
-The Film with Chaplain reflected views of Hitler that existed long before the movie was made. The references to Chaplain regarding Hitler preceded the movie by at least eight years.
-Yes, by the time Pearl Harbor happened there was no alternative to war. I am still convinced that proper governmental action beforehand could have stopped it from getting that far, and as far as Iraq was concerned, there is no way that was needed. This western inclination to military action in that region will have no good end. That is my opinion. You may disagree with it, but on the same token I will never be convinced otherwise.
-There were lots of bullies where I was raised. I was raised in a very bad neighborhood full of racial tensions in a city that was at the time the murder capital of the United States. I was never once in a fist fight nor never once ran. My religious conviction to non-violence (ahisma) was well known, in fact, people were curious about it and would ask me a lot of questions in regards to it. It would have been easy to take advantage of me at any time. In spite of that, or perhaps because of it, (I can’t say why) I was welcomed by all racial or ethnic groups, honor students and thugs alike. I had and continue to have nothing but friends.
Your friend
Sufjon
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brakelite
Guest
All Christians in America should be demanding that Imam Rauf be free to build his mosque wherever he wishes. This issue has everything to do with religious freedom.
Religious freedom is an unalienable right, a God given gift, and something that is to be cherished and protected. Religious freedom is not toleration. If the people of America so influence the powers that be to deny this building to go ahead, then they have turned religious freedom into religious toleration.
To tolerate something is to suffer something until such time as you see fit to deny it. Religious toleration is religion by permission.
Religion is between me and God. Alone. The state, the church, nor any person has any right to interfere with it, nor ‘tolerate it’. No-one has any more right to tolerate my religion that I have a right to tolerate fishing in Alaska.
Abraham Lincoln said:“Familiarise yourself with the chains of bondage (or withhold Imam Rauf his right to build his mosque) and you prepare your own limbs to wear them. Accustomed to trample upon the rights of others, you have lost the genius of your own independence, and become fit subjects of the first cunning tyrant who rises among you.”
The mitigating factors of course are the motives behind such a building. I appreciate that there are many mosques already in NY and so the Muslim community has certainly been given the benefit of the freedom that America offers all who choose to live there. But we must be very very careful if we start out on the road to judging motive.
And remember, history reveals to us that there was a time when America was in its infancy, when its founders and first European inhabitants were themselves fleeing religious intoleration in Europe, that Catholicism was viewed with great hostility and downright suspicion. It took some time before true religious liberty afforded Catholicism the same freedom that is now enjoyed by all.
And let us be honest; if we consider the official Islam goal as being to subjugate the world through tyranny and force if necessary and enforce sharia law on all and therefore deny them their rights even as being equal under the constitution, ought we not also deny Catholicism their rights also because in times past Rome held a similar world-view, some even claiming that particular world-view still stands?
Religious freedom is an unalienable right, a God given gift, and something that is to be cherished and protected. Religious freedom is not toleration. If the people of America so influence the powers that be to deny this building to go ahead, then they have turned religious freedom into religious toleration.
To tolerate something is to suffer something until such time as you see fit to deny it. Religious toleration is religion by permission.
Religion is between me and God. Alone. The state, the church, nor any person has any right to interfere with it, nor ‘tolerate it’. No-one has any more right to tolerate my religion that I have a right to tolerate fishing in Alaska.
Abraham Lincoln said:“Familiarise yourself with the chains of bondage (or withhold Imam Rauf his right to build his mosque) and you prepare your own limbs to wear them. Accustomed to trample upon the rights of others, you have lost the genius of your own independence, and become fit subjects of the first cunning tyrant who rises among you.”
The mitigating factors of course are the motives behind such a building. I appreciate that there are many mosques already in NY and so the Muslim community has certainly been given the benefit of the freedom that America offers all who choose to live there. But we must be very very careful if we start out on the road to judging motive.
And remember, history reveals to us that there was a time when America was in its infancy, when its founders and first European inhabitants were themselves fleeing religious intoleration in Europe, that Catholicism was viewed with great hostility and downright suspicion. It took some time before true religious liberty afforded Catholicism the same freedom that is now enjoyed by all.
And let us be honest; if we consider the official Islam goal as being to subjugate the world through tyranny and force if necessary and enforce sharia law on all and therefore deny them their rights even as being equal under the constitution, ought we not also deny Catholicism their rights also because in times past Rome held a similar world-view, some even claiming that particular world-view still stands?
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John_Paul_Jones
Guest
I didn’t say the main reason was humanitarian. And I have to contest the use of “we” in that statement. In most case the US gov’t in dealing with foreign affairs acts irrespective of the general opinion of the American people. If there were any reason that gov’t committed to topple Saddam Hussein it was for Saudis, not so much for the Iraqi people. If there was any reason for a just war, it was for the protection of the Kurds, but the time to do so had past. The war came after Saddam’s possible threat to Saudi Arabia.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Imam Rauf is not a humanitarian…otherwise he would be humane and recognize the ongoing suffering and grief of our people and their sensitivities, and be a good landlord. This man is a supporter of Hamas and essentially said America brought this on. To call it Cordoba?
Study the plight of non - Muslims in Cordoba, Spain during the Islamic invasion. And he wanted ground broken on 9/11. It is not a house of interfaith dialogue but the promotion of Islam. It is a conquest symbol.
Study the plight of non - Muslims in Cordoba, Spain during the Islamic invasion. And he wanted ground broken on 9/11. It is not a house of interfaith dialogue but the promotion of Islam. It is a conquest symbol.
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Sufjon
Guest
Great post Brakelight. I wish I was able to put it so eloquently!
Your friend
Sufjon
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Sufjon
Guest
Hi KathleenGee: I know you are convinced that it’s a symbol of conquest. I don’t believe it is, but let’s say it is. Let’s say it’s a symbol of conquest. What will happen if it gets built? Wouldn’t a symbol of conquest look rather silly in the middle of a city and a nation for that matter where life simply went on around it? Only you control what is in your heart and what your mind is set on. A paper cup doesn’t clash with a rock in a stream. It gently glides around it, riding the current to wherever it might be going.
Your friend
Sufjon
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KathleenGee
Guest
Sufjon,
You can’t just listen to emotive words…you have to step back and see the bigger picture, see the connections. There is alot happening in our country right now to turn us into a different type of country against the will and charism of our country. And the working and middle class people are the ones taking the brunt of it. We have been marginalized for so long that people are at their breaking point.
There are thousands of innocent Americans who have died, besides the victims of 9/11, due to people who should not have gotten into the country, because our borders are not being protected.
We have the drug cartels and Marxists to the South, and militant Islam gaining more connections into society, and the globalists working to place judges into out system to only judge from a particular philosophical position. Plus we have native citizens in the educational system that are not teaching our young to think, but again to be formed into another mindset that is not representing what our country has traditionally represented.
Over and over again we are being told to be tolerant by a crowd that isn’t, and is blind to the sanctity of human life.
You can’t just listen to emotive words…you have to step back and see the bigger picture, see the connections. There is alot happening in our country right now to turn us into a different type of country against the will and charism of our country. And the working and middle class people are the ones taking the brunt of it. We have been marginalized for so long that people are at their breaking point.
There are thousands of innocent Americans who have died, besides the victims of 9/11, due to people who should not have gotten into the country, because our borders are not being protected.
We have the drug cartels and Marxists to the South, and militant Islam gaining more connections into society, and the globalists working to place judges into out system to only judge from a particular philosophical position. Plus we have native citizens in the educational system that are not teaching our young to think, but again to be formed into another mindset that is not representing what our country has traditionally represented.
Over and over again we are being told to be tolerant by a crowd that isn’t, and is blind to the sanctity of human life.
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Light1111
Guest
Again, individual beliefs of Catholics are questioned by outsiders, as you question the belief above. And the reason I brought up varying interpretations of the NT, is because I frequently have encountered, here in this forum, a very strong stance against anything but that which is taught by the CC, including varying beliefs within the ranks of Christianity. Forgive me for misunderstanding the 21st century beliefs and sense of charity of the CC. I was only extrapolating based on what I’ve seen and heard from members.
In the end, my main point is that we must be charitable in our views of others, even when they differ in their beliefs. That is the path one walks, when one chooses to walk with Christ. If you quote Christ as condemning various peoples, may I remind you that as God, He was elevated to a level where He had the right, the knowledge, the wisdom to do so. I do not believe we can put ourselves in the same shoes and also condemn others. And at the end of the day, the real point here is that we are confusing the religion of Islam with a bunch of extremist terrorists who are diverging from the pure intent of their faith tradition. In this forum, that is what I have attempted to defend. It is not fair to lump all Muslems into the same pot to which we’ve relegated the terrorists. It does not have a basis in reality, and it is cruel.
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JHow
Guest
And is intellectually dishonest to tap dance around muslim violence, which is more widespread than you want to admit. Arguing over which is the “real” islam is beside the point. There is nothing about Catholicism that says I can’t condemn wife-beating when someone advocates it, same goes for murder.
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hamba2han
Guest
I have watched a YouTube video which claims that one of the alleged 19 hijackers was in fact a Christian… and that some of these “hijackers” have been found to be still alive after the event on 9/11.
And so, the jury is still out on whether or not Muslims attacked America on the morning of Sept. 11, 2001.
And so, the jury is still out on whether or not Muslims attacked America on the morning of Sept. 11, 2001.
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dianaiad
Guest
You don’t seem to get the problem. Sure, there are a few idiots out there who are advocating forced prevention of this mosque…but the vast majority of us are quite aware that this man’s freedom in this nation allows him to build the mosque anywhere he has the legal right to do so–even there and then.
What you don’t seem to grasp is that freedom of speech and religion go two ways. While this Imam has the right to build the mosque, the rest of us have the right to let him know that doing so is an egregious insult to the people who died there (including the Muslims who died there) and in Washington and in a lonely field; it is an insult and a challenge to the nation as a whole–and we are very well aware of the irony of using the very freedoms that define us to hurt us…of using the very freedoms these extremists want to take FROM us in order to accomplish this.
It is vitally important that freedom of speech be protected…and part of that freedom is the right for the rest of us to express our outrage–in the hope that the builders will realize that their stated hopes regarding this building are best realized by not building it.
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dianaiad
Guest
Well, you have certainly just shed light upon your agenda and intelligence, hamba2han. I do believe that I know exactly how to classify your posts, now.
Tell me…was Auschwitz a day spa?
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hamba2han
Guest
Auschwitz you say?
I got involved on a discussion about the Holocaust not too long ago on another section at CAF but apparently, the moderator there found my comments to be a tad too distressing for his tastes and promptly gave me a warning.
And BTW, the YouTube account that had the video I was referring to has since been abruptly suspended for some unknown reason… and so perhaps it might not be too wise for me to elaborate on such a sensitive subject as 9/11.
With regard to the mosque at Ground Zero and also the wider subject of the causes of 9/11 in general, Muslims are expected to sit at the back of the bus and not be a trouble-maker like Rosa Parks.
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dianaiad
Guest
Yep, you are fullfilling all my expectations.
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hamba2han
Guest
Earlier in this thread, I have pointed out that FOX News presenters like Sean Hannity and Glenn Beck had deliberately LIED when they continually announced that the Park51 project is slated to open on the 10th anniversary of 9/11 next year.
But yet, the opponents of the project do NOT seem to care at all that they have been intentionally lied to by their idols at FOX News.
And the same thing happened when the stars of the anti-Islam movement i.e. Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer, continually LIED when they said that part of the landing gear fell on the Burlington Coat Factory building.
And this sadly reminds me of the ahadith of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) concerning some of the signs of the end-times:
There will be years of deceit, in which a truthful person will be disbelieved and a liar will be believed. … (Ibn Kathir)
The time will be years of confusion. People will believe a liar, and disbelieve one who tells the truth. People will distrust one who is trustworthy, and trust one who is treacherous. … (Ahmad)
I fear that we are indeed in the end-times.
But yet, the opponents of the project do NOT seem to care at all that they have been intentionally lied to by their idols at FOX News.
And the same thing happened when the stars of the anti-Islam movement i.e. Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer, continually LIED when they said that part of the landing gear fell on the Burlington Coat Factory building.
And this sadly reminds me of the ahadith of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) concerning some of the signs of the end-times:
There will be years of deceit, in which a truthful person will be disbelieved and a liar will be believed. … (Ibn Kathir)
The time will be years of confusion. People will believe a liar, and disbelieve one who tells the truth. People will distrust one who is trustworthy, and trust one who is treacherous. … (Ahmad)
I fear that we are indeed in the end-times.
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Sufjon
Guest
Change and mutability are unavoidable imperatives of natural order. Without them, all things would stop and cease to be. You cannot stop change, but you can influence the outcomes with right action. Reacting to what we think are insults is probably not the best action for our peace of mind or in the promotion of constructive dialog.
I know. That is very sad indeed and we should work together to stop it. I can’'t see how worrying about the community center will do much to that end.
You are so right. The world is rife with problems and suffering. It always will be. In my faith we have this approach, and I don’t think it will conflict with anything in yours, so I will share it. All you can do is to work hard to make what changes you can, but don’t get attached to a particular outcome. Whatever the outcome, it will be undone or changed over time. Give the outcomes and the result of your work as an offering of love to God. Do the work and everything you do in the spirit of offering. Hold on to none of it for yourself. If all fails, the offering of your work and your life is the triumph of your being. This will bring you peace even in midst of whatever is happening around you. Do your work and at the same time let go. None of this is yours.
Your friend
Sufjon
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hamba2han
Guest
On this point, I agree with you 100% and I am certainly not defending the people who were responsible for 9/11… whoever they may be.
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JHow
Guest
Well, we know who they were… they were muslims acting in the name of islam as they understood it.
If it makes you feel better to call them “bespoilers of the muslim faith”, have at it.
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JHow
Guest
Wow! Didn’t see this until I looped back in the thread. This is nonsense on stilts. There is no point in debating you further - you are impervious to evidence.
Muslims are not the victims of 911. They are treated in America more fairly than no-muslims are treated in any muslim country. Wherever muslim culture encounters any other culture there is friction and violence. Muslim anger is rooted in the fact that their idealogy tells them they should inherit the world, while reality tells them that their culture has been left behind, their civilization is a backwater, propped up (for now) by oil money in some areas. How much of the muslim condition is tribal culture and how much is islamic idealogy is a problem for muslims to figure out. But you can’t fault the rest of the world for being concerned about the danger posed by muslim terrorists (and, if the postings here are representative, their “moderate” muslim enablers).
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