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agent_grey
Guest
Was Jesus Tolerant of false religions?
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sedonaman
Guest
This is the “tolerance über alles” principle. Once liberal tolerance rather than traditional morality becomes our guiding principle, we must tolerate anything and everything, including, ultimately, the presence of evil. This is how we have ended up with a society in which decency and sanity have been inverted to the point where organizations like NAMBLA can exist and society has no legal recourse. This is why the government is powerless to stop the evil of killer terrorists: it doesn’t even know how to prosecute them when they are caught in the act.
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sedonaman
Guest
They are treated in America more fairly than Christians are treated … in America.
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sedonaman
Guest
I got a suspicion that it was Elvis and Buddy Holly.
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Light1111
Guest
If a Catholic were to violate the beliefs of Catholicism, that would be his personal sin to contend with. If a Mulsem were to violate the beliefs of Islam, again, that would be that individual’s sin to contend with. Muslems view the acts of the terrorists as we do. Can you not find in your heart the pain a faithful Muslem must feel, to be lumped in a group with mass-murderers? I have asked this question repeatedly and you don’t seem to want to find charity, good will, and loving kindness for your neighbor. I am almost certain Jesus preached that message. I am simply shocked that in a Catholic forum one could find such a refusal to find empathy for the larger group of Muslems who are actually representative of their chosen faith tradition. Whether or not the terrorists identify as Muslems, they are divergent followers of the faith, not mainstream traditionalists who obey the Koran. But their individual beliefs are not the point–it’s the hatred of a Christian I am appalled by. In Jesus’ name, you smear the name of faithful people?
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KathleenGee
Guest
What I don’t understand is how so many tolerant people are ignoring the vast majority of imams in the world who advised this group not to build the mosque,
that it was insensitive – and thus inhumane to plan to hope break ground on 9/11 to build the Cordoba House, and it will be most ostentatious, self-promoting…
no symbols anywhere of mutual faith tolerance in this forthcoming building,
the ‘imam’ arrested a number of times who is a notorious slum lord in NYC, a supporter of Hamas…an outreach of Iran that wants to annihilate Israel…and then anyone opposing this same imam he is now labelling you a bigot…
I think it is time he move back to where he came from.
You don’t abuse victims by rubbing a grandiose Muslim symbol in their face and then name call them as well. There are already 200 mosques in the general area…and the same folks of Americans are not supporting this group are not facilitating the rebuilding of Christian churches.
In the meantime, it is out that the jihadists now have inroads into our country to start killing American citizens…and the Feds do nothing…the Muslim who shot the soldiers at Fort Hood was protected by the Army…a private shot the whole scene on his cell phone including the man shouting allah akbar as he began shooting our troops…the private was ordered to immediately erase the tape…why is this? all to protect militant islam…the shadow government at work.
Yes, we do have right to be outraged by the callous attitude of these militant wolves disguised as sheep who ridicule the native people for not wanting their grandiose conquest. They would never allow any Christian site built near their places either.
that it was insensitive – and thus inhumane to plan to hope break ground on 9/11 to build the Cordoba House, and it will be most ostentatious, self-promoting…
no symbols anywhere of mutual faith tolerance in this forthcoming building,
the ‘imam’ arrested a number of times who is a notorious slum lord in NYC, a supporter of Hamas…an outreach of Iran that wants to annihilate Israel…and then anyone opposing this same imam he is now labelling you a bigot…
I think it is time he move back to where he came from.
You don’t abuse victims by rubbing a grandiose Muslim symbol in their face and then name call them as well. There are already 200 mosques in the general area…and the same folks of Americans are not supporting this group are not facilitating the rebuilding of Christian churches.
In the meantime, it is out that the jihadists now have inroads into our country to start killing American citizens…and the Feds do nothing…the Muslim who shot the soldiers at Fort Hood was protected by the Army…a private shot the whole scene on his cell phone including the man shouting allah akbar as he began shooting our troops…the private was ordered to immediately erase the tape…why is this? all to protect militant islam…the shadow government at work.
Yes, we do have right to be outraged by the callous attitude of these militant wolves disguised as sheep who ridicule the native people for not wanting their grandiose conquest. They would never allow any Christian site built near their places either.
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KathleenGee
Guest
I just finished listening to Zuhdi Jasser, MD, a member of the Islamic Forum for Democracy.
He said his family left their country to escape the oppression of this particular Muslim government he did not identify. He said the people in the world do not realize that the Muslim world is in its own civil war.
The Islamic Forum for Democracy opposes this particular mosque as well these Muslim political theological idealogues that are spreading such thinking throughout the world. People do not realize that the NYC imam is not a moderate but of the same genre. The Left is to the point of being pathological in not recognizing who these people really are.
Dr Jasser also said that the USA should spend more of its attention in helping those suffering oppression from Muslim political ideology as we see in Saudi Arabia and Iran, and further distance ourselves from them.
Lebanon has been a primarily Christian country with its Muslim centers. But now through Iran…many settlements of Hezbollah have settled in following a brutal war in the 70’s between the Muslims and Lebanonese Arab Christians. All this is to encircle Israel.
These Muslim political idealogues want America to bring in all sorts of different courts of law to serve specific groups of people, such as Sharia for their people, this the open opinion of the imam of the Cordoba House.
Dr Jasser also said the Muslim world needs to speak out against the extremes of Saudi Arabia and Iran, and America also needs to work to help reform these certain countries. It is the Muslim Brotherhood that is the umbrella for all these political Islam groups, and it originated in Egypt.
We need to recognize who is who not buy into all the pressure the Far Left in collusion with the political theological idealogues and stand up for common humanitarian relations among all people instead.
He said his family left their country to escape the oppression of this particular Muslim government he did not identify. He said the people in the world do not realize that the Muslim world is in its own civil war.
The Islamic Forum for Democracy opposes this particular mosque as well these Muslim political theological idealogues that are spreading such thinking throughout the world. People do not realize that the NYC imam is not a moderate but of the same genre. The Left is to the point of being pathological in not recognizing who these people really are.
Dr Jasser also said that the USA should spend more of its attention in helping those suffering oppression from Muslim political ideology as we see in Saudi Arabia and Iran, and further distance ourselves from them.
Lebanon has been a primarily Christian country with its Muslim centers. But now through Iran…many settlements of Hezbollah have settled in following a brutal war in the 70’s between the Muslims and Lebanonese Arab Christians. All this is to encircle Israel.
These Muslim political idealogues want America to bring in all sorts of different courts of law to serve specific groups of people, such as Sharia for their people, this the open opinion of the imam of the Cordoba House.
Dr Jasser also said the Muslim world needs to speak out against the extremes of Saudi Arabia and Iran, and America also needs to work to help reform these certain countries. It is the Muslim Brotherhood that is the umbrella for all these political Islam groups, and it originated in Egypt.
We need to recognize who is who not buy into all the pressure the Far Left in collusion with the political theological idealogues and stand up for common humanitarian relations among all people instead.
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Sufjon
Guest
Hi KathleenGee: This post is all over the place, so it’s hard to figure out what part to discuss. I figured I’d go with the part above, but even this has a lot of components. Okay (deep breath), here we go:
-Can you tell me where it is out that a wave of jihadists have arrived or are on their way? I haven’t heard it, so it is out there where?
-You said the Feds are doing nothing. Which Feds - the FBI? Suppose they were doing nothing. Can you then tell me what the motive would be for doing nothing? I can’t imagine what that would be, but I’m listening.
-Have you or any news agencies seen the cell phone video you mentioned? Let me be specific though, I don’t want to know how many have talked about it - I want to know how many have, or who has seen it if I may.
-Who is the shadow government, and what components of our government are working with them? Names or titles would be good. Sources would be good too.
Your friend
Sufjon
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KathleenGee
Guest
Shadow government…there are forces here in our country…one wants to retain our republic and constitution, our national sovereignty, and the ending of the loss of freedom of religious expression mostly experienced by Christians. The media has a great hand in this.
Then you have the globalists who want a North American Federation, sharing the wealth so to speak, attempting to bring about economic equality by taking production out of America while retaining its consumerist lifestyle. This force is not protecting our borders, is oblivious to the thousands of Americans already killed by illegal immigrants.
I read the Mindzenty Report in 1994 or 5. It said that the Marxists south of the border were preparing gangs to infiltrate our borders, to commit crimes in our country that would become evident by 2005.
Through this, I also was witnessing the past 35 years or so how only white people are racist, but ignoring a segment of foreign born people coming here for the benefits with no concern about citizenship or welfare of our people, and also adding to racial tensions and more gang and criminal activity within our country.
About jihad…our borders are so open, I saw films of what was happening just a few weeks ago and it is absolutely shocking how the Fed’s will not do anything. They will not allow protection for Americans living on it. This is something you need to research, Sufjon, and the massive influx of illegal aliens is not an accident just happening by chance. We are dealing with the drug cartels and others within the Mexican government.
About jihadists being here. …Yes, they are here, and they have now the inroads. It is only a matter of time. FBI. Intelligence. Arrested terrorists. We hear on the news how many terrorists have been apprehended before committing crime. But we are now at the point that we will begin to see more happening.
The Muslim who killed the soldiers at Fort Hood, as well as other individuals who ran down Americans or shot a woman at a Jewish center …it was no accident, and each and every one claimed insanity. The soldier using his cell phone to videotape the shooting at Fort Hood was told by an Army official to destroy other tape. The question is why and why is the government not revealing more? In the town I live next to, a Muslim was driving very fast down the hill here, tail gated a couple in their car, and then ran into a car with two women killing them. He was driving a van and the women with him, dressed in the long clothes…the crime totally disappeared from the news. Then the following week, a man from Bosnia rammed his SUV into the bank blocks away, and again no more news. When things like this happen locally, there is always a follow up and court hearing. Nothing. They disappear.
You might spend your time elsewhere researching and trying to see the pathology this tolerant Muslim MD is trying to say. IF you are defending this particular Cordoba mosque…without understanding the people behind it, and simply considering the whole situation as a sign of intolerance…I would say to start look more and try to understand the bigger picture here.
Then you have the globalists who want a North American Federation, sharing the wealth so to speak, attempting to bring about economic equality by taking production out of America while retaining its consumerist lifestyle. This force is not protecting our borders, is oblivious to the thousands of Americans already killed by illegal immigrants.
I read the Mindzenty Report in 1994 or 5. It said that the Marxists south of the border were preparing gangs to infiltrate our borders, to commit crimes in our country that would become evident by 2005.
Through this, I also was witnessing the past 35 years or so how only white people are racist, but ignoring a segment of foreign born people coming here for the benefits with no concern about citizenship or welfare of our people, and also adding to racial tensions and more gang and criminal activity within our country.
About jihad…our borders are so open, I saw films of what was happening just a few weeks ago and it is absolutely shocking how the Fed’s will not do anything. They will not allow protection for Americans living on it. This is something you need to research, Sufjon, and the massive influx of illegal aliens is not an accident just happening by chance. We are dealing with the drug cartels and others within the Mexican government.
About jihadists being here. …Yes, they are here, and they have now the inroads. It is only a matter of time. FBI. Intelligence. Arrested terrorists. We hear on the news how many terrorists have been apprehended before committing crime. But we are now at the point that we will begin to see more happening.
The Muslim who killed the soldiers at Fort Hood, as well as other individuals who ran down Americans or shot a woman at a Jewish center …it was no accident, and each and every one claimed insanity. The soldier using his cell phone to videotape the shooting at Fort Hood was told by an Army official to destroy other tape. The question is why and why is the government not revealing more? In the town I live next to, a Muslim was driving very fast down the hill here, tail gated a couple in their car, and then ran into a car with two women killing them. He was driving a van and the women with him, dressed in the long clothes…the crime totally disappeared from the news. Then the following week, a man from Bosnia rammed his SUV into the bank blocks away, and again no more news. When things like this happen locally, there is always a follow up and court hearing. Nothing. They disappear.
You might spend your time elsewhere researching and trying to see the pathology this tolerant Muslim MD is trying to say. IF you are defending this particular Cordoba mosque…without understanding the people behind it, and simply considering the whole situation as a sign of intolerance…I would say to start look more and try to understand the bigger picture here.
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sedonaman
Guest
You are looking at Islam through the lens of Western political methods. You apparently know little about Islamic tradition, for it is not one of peace but of war – the basic tenet being the world is divided into two: house of Islam and the house of war; everything that is not Islam is considered war against Islam and must be made to submit, by violent means if necessary. “Radical”, “extreme”, “liberal”, “conservative”, “traditional”, and “mainstream” are not concepts in Islam. For example, what is a “moderate” Muslim? One who is nice to you? An analogy closer to home, is a “moderate” Catholic one who accepts that abortion is ok in some cases? Of course not; the “moderate” view is that put forth by the Magisterium. You cannot conclude that Islam is good because there are some Muslims out there who are what you consider “good” or “nice” any more than you can conclude that Catholicism is bad because there are bad Catholics.
What determines a “moderate” Muslim? Mohammed. Mohammed is the perfect Muslim and an example to all Muslims to follow; he, not some 21st century American Rodney King philosophy, is the yardstick by which to measure the conduct of Muslims. To the extent that a Muslim is kind to kafirs is a possible sin that he must contend with, but more likely he lacks the power to wage jihad against those kafirs, so it is not a sin but merely the biding of time until his power returns.
Catholicism teaches that everyone has been created in the image and likeness of God and hence is entitled to human dignity; Islam does not. Not everyone is created as such; only Muslims have full human dignity, and that is why Muslims can treat non-believers like low-life. If a non-believer commits some insult to Islam or Mohammed, the whole non-believer’s community is considered guilty. That’s why there were acts of violence and murder against Christians in Africa when the Mohammed cartoons were published in the Netherlands.
These examples are only part of what “moderate” Islam is about.
Some references:
For a good overview, see Islam 101 by Gregory Davis
John Quincy Adams Knew Jihad and Jihad Begot The Crusades, both by Andrew Bostom
The Decrees of Islam by Radhasyam Brahmachari
Also consider this somewhat lengthy analysis. [You can skip over the references for a quicker read and go back later for verification.]
The fact there are Muslims who are sincere in their search for God is beside the point. Whether you agree or not, Islam is the force we must contend with.
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hamba2han
Guest
If anyone wishes to learn a few things about the ‘American Islamic Forum for Democracy’ and it’s founder Zuhdi Jasser (who appears to be it’s only member it would seem), then this website has a bit of info.
You can always count on FOX News to find an Uncle Tom like this Zuhdi Jasser to advance their own political agenda.
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dianaiad
Guest
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hamba2han
Guest
At best, this Zuhdi Jasser guy can be considered to be an ‘ultra-liberal Muslim’… and I am not sure whether such an individual is considered to be still in the fold of Islam.
If this guy really wants to look like a true Muslim who is speaking for the Muslim community, then he should first grow a beard.
If this guy really wants to look like a true Muslim who is speaking for the Muslim community, then he should first grow a beard.
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dianaiad
Guest
It’s not the closeness of the mosque that is the problem, actually. It is that the building being used IS ‘Ground Zero,’ in a very real sense–the reason it needs renovating is because it was actually hit by one of the engines of the planes that hit the Twin Towers. It is also the proposed groundbreaking date, the associations of the Imam who is proposing it, and the obvious symbology of the proposed ground breaking date. This man has done everything in his power to enforce the obvious insult.
In fact, he could have built it, more quietly, in a different building (one not damaged by the actual plane, for instance) even closer to the Twin Tower site and it wouldn’t have been a blip on the radar. If his groundbreaking were set for a different date–in other words, if he weren’t so obviously and deliberately tying the building of this center TO the events on 9/11, he could probably build the thing across the street from Ground Zero, or even carved himself out a little corner OF the newly arising complex–no problem. Shoot, he’d probably even get a bunch of non-Muslims helping. I doubt highly that he would have recieved THIS reception, anyway.
In other words, it’s not the center itself. It’s the obvious intent behind building it, as evidenced by the deliberate choice of the site and of the dates.
In fact, he could have built it, more quietly, in a different building (one not damaged by the actual plane, for instance) even closer to the Twin Tower site and it wouldn’t have been a blip on the radar. If his groundbreaking were set for a different date–in other words, if he weren’t so obviously and deliberately tying the building of this center TO the events on 9/11, he could probably build the thing across the street from Ground Zero, or even carved himself out a little corner OF the newly arising complex–no problem. Shoot, he’d probably even get a bunch of non-Muslims helping. I doubt highly that he would have recieved THIS reception, anyway.
In other words, it’s not the center itself. It’s the obvious intent behind building it, as evidenced by the deliberate choice of the site and of the dates.
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dianaiad
Guest
Correction…the building was hit by part of the fusilage and landing gear of one of the planes, not an engine.
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Sufjon
Guest
I have to say that I still don’t get this whole thing. People from all sorts of religions and nationalities died near that spot, including Muslims. There are fringe groups from diverse demographic backgrounds and this applies to Islam like anyone else. None of these fringe groups acts in accordance with the majority. The 9/11 gang were Saudi nut cases, not emissaries from Islam. I participate in blogs outside of this one where people think that the whole Catholic Church should be condemned because of what a few priests did. They have equally compelling arguments that the behavior of these priests is the result of the male dominated authoritarian culture of the Church. I know better than that of course because I know a lot of Catholics. Same goes for Muslims. I know better than what being said here because I know a lot of Muslims. That said, I imagine this is never going to end, and as an outside observer I will continue to be puzzled by the whole thing.
Your friend
Sufjon
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sedonaman
Guest
Where is the proof that the behavior of these priests “is the result of the male dominated authoritarian culture of the Church”? It would be difficult, if not impossible to find a single passage in the NT where Jesus commanded his followers to wage perpetual child molestation [or some other evil], but not so difficult to find commands to wage perpetual war in Islamic foundational texts. So I doubt the anti-Catholic bloggers’ arguments are “equally compelling.” Not only that, but the fact that Catholic priests molested children is completely irrelevant to Islam’s scriptures commanding jihad.
Which brings us to the second point. You have equated people with doctrine. They are not the same. “I know a lot of [good] Muslims therefore Islam must be good” is a non-sequitur, as you have observed the reverse in the case of Catholic priest molesters.
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Light1111
Guest
I’ve just read through all of the posts in this thread once again, and Sufjon, I am truly humbled by your fine example. Seldom in life do we come across people who exhibit such loving kindness, goodwill, and a true sense of charity. Each time I do, I remember those people’s words and actions when I am feeling it difficult to extend those rights onto my fellow man, and extend a peace offering.
While you are not on the path of Catholicism, or even Christianity, I believe you exhibit an example that closely follows the path outlined by Jesus. As we have seen, it is not always easy to exemplify the teachings of any faith tradition–even as we quote our Holy Books, we are forgetting to uphold basic human dignity. I am grateful for your contributions, both intellectually, but also spiritually, as they remind us what it means to “Love Thy Neighbor as Thyself.” One of the very basic Commandments, it often falls to the wayside when a person’s politics get in the way of their faith.
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CHESTERTONRULES
Guest
Evasions and lies.
Your are either incredibly ignorant or you are dishonest. You post falsehoods to support your position so it is no wonder that you reach the wrong conclusions.
You might be sincere, and I hope you are, but this is disappointing.
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dianaiad
Guest
Ok, let’s put it this way. I am a Christian, and some Christian extremists have just used a truck bomb to blow up the school that your children attended, and they did so because they claimed that God told them to do so; that the children in the school were minions of Satan and deserved to be sent to hell early, before they grew up to wreck havoc on the world. Several hundred children…including yours…died that day.
Now I have been known to say things that sympathized with the goals of that specific Christian extremist group. I have sought, and recieved, funding from people who give money to that group. I now propose building a church across the street from the school, using the building that housed the truck bomb; in fact, I chose it because it housed that truck. I announce that I am going to start construction (groundbreaking) on the 10th anniversary of the bombing. I do these things deliberately, because of the symbolism of the site and of the date. My purpose is to make a statement regarding that event–and the statement is not one of sympathy, but as a declaration of victory, very much like monuments on battlefields.
Would you not, given MY motivation, understand quite well the insult I am handing you?
It’s not actually about the mosque–it’s about the motivation BEHIND it.
- Status