Be Tolerant at ground Zero

[sedonaman]

The property rights of American Muslims should be the same as the property rights of other Americans.

The point I am making here is that someone’s rights would be subject to the laws of the land they are living in and this would be my understanding of property rights for American citizens from a Muslim perspective.

How do you think this is different from the Christian view?

 

[hamba2han]

How do you think this is different from the Christian view?

For one thing, I would gauge that it is different from observing the objections and protests of many Christians in America against this Park51 project and also from reading the posts of some of the Christians on this thread.

Again to reiterate, this is really not a question of wisdom and respect, it is instead about morals and I believe that the people who oppose the project because they feel offended by it are morally wrong to adopt such a stance.

 

[sedonaman]

For one thing, I would gauge that it is different from observing the objections and protests of many Christians in America against this Park51 project and also from reading the posts of some of the Christians on this thread.

Again to reiterate, this is really not a question of wisdom and respect, it is instead about morals and I believe that the people who oppose the project because they feel offended by it are morally wrong to adopt such a stance.

Several points:

1. Muslims seem to think that all non-Muslims are Christians.
2. The objections and protest are not official Christian positions. *
3. If you think the people who oppose the project are morally wrong, by what moral standard do you think they are wrong?*

 

[KathleenGee]

The Americans who voted to have the ostentatious mosque built numbered about 28 people.

What is causing alot of difficulties in the world now are the issues of entitlement by foreigners coming to our country and dehumanizing our own people with actions such as these.

I worked in a foreign country, and all of us had great sensitivity and respect for the heart of the local people. The imam here is a blackmailer as well because he said ‘the Muslim world is watching…and if we do not allow his mosque built, it will bring about national security…’

The imam is the one who is using this particular grandiose mosque as a weapon to show the Muslim world that we are prejudice. He is going against all the imams in America and the world who gently advised him not to do this, and he is furthering the problems people are having.

You come to a country, you learn its language. You come because you appreciate our values.

Our values do not put conquests at the site of the deaths of innocent people. And the same crowd allowing this mosque are also blocking the restoration of St. Nickolas Church that was very damaged by 9/ll, as well as other small Christian sites.

Don’t cave in to a false peace, and give in to a wolf disguised as a lamb.

 

[sedonaman]

…
The imam is the one who is using this particular grandiose mosque as a weapon to show the Muslim world that we are prejudice. …

I think his primary purpose is to show that Islam is superior.

Don’t cave in to a false peace, and give in to a wolf disguised as a lamb.

The U.S. has been a carpet for the world for too long.

 

[Splinker]

Well, we are prejudice. If that was his aim, he could have done it a lot easier.

 

[KathleenGee]

No Muslim would allow another religion to build a church or temple after destroying many innocent people in its land.

Here is what recently happened on the altar of the Cathedral in Firenze…Florence…and the Italians have been so generous in tolerance and allowing mosques everywhere.

www.tgtnews.it/index.php/11/firenze/5365.html

That man committed a grave sacrilege…now wait and see for the Catholics to do nothing, no protests, no killings, no burning Korans…the altar will have to be reconsecrated…and of course, the shoes are used to give the greatest insult.

 

[Splinker]

No Muslim would allow another religion to build a church or temple after destroying many innocent people in its land.

Here is what recently happened on the altar of the Cathedral in Firenze…Florence…and the Italians have been so generous in tolerance and allowing mosques everywhere.

www.tgtnews.it/index.php/11/firenze/5365.html

That man committed a grave sacrilege…now wait and see for the Catholics to do nothing, no protests, no killings, no burning Korans…the altar will have to be reconsecrated…and of course, the shoes are used to give the greatest insult.

When you say “no muslim,” I assume you mean no muslim country. But that is really not the issue. We are talking about what Americans would do. And the intolerance of those muslim countries are very likely a main reason so many of their people came to live in America to begin with.

 

[KathleenGee]

I got hold of a book covering the history of the Arabian people and came to the chapter on Mohammed and Islam. Apparently his last year was spent fighting, and Mohammed decreed that all people were to be killed unless they proclaimed his perception of God.

This is not the type of prophet Christ is, or the Christian prophets since then who enjoy the communion of saints.

Yesterday I came to this magazine from the ‘Digest of the USC Shoah Foundation Institute for Visual History and Education’. There is a difference between textual history and visual history. I also appreciate the comments by Yehuda Bauer, ’ Historians must approach all documentation, written or otherwise, with caution – even skepticism. As a corrective to archival documentation, testimony is indispensible.’ He goes on to clarify that as memory is fickle, early testimonies tend to be more accurate than later ones.

Another is written by an author returning to Rwanda, how he encountered memories of genocide, Donald E Miller, who initially wrote about the genocide of the Armenian people in 1993. He went to Rwanda recently to get testimonies from those survived. He ended saying, 'Unfortunately, the adage of “Never Again” seems to be false, which is why a new generation of scholars must be trained to address the age-old crime of humans killing members of their own species." Yes, the answer is in Islam itself, and we need to pray for new scholars who can help direct Islam in areas it most needs.

I read the “Black Book of Poland” my father obtained in the seminary, printed in 1941, when prior people were hearing all sorts of rumors of atrocities being committed against the Jews and Slavic peoples. It is an early series of textual testimonies assembled in the beginning years of WWII.

I will never forget it. It caused me to sympathize for all people in the world who have hearts of gratitude, and bear with a day’s honest toil of work and living in peace. The US Military says Hezbollah, directed by Iran, is more lethal than Al Qaeda. And there is the brutal Hamas. The NYC imam/slumlord is a supporter of Hamas.

I do not tolerate fork tongues, or bearers of peace but who promote murder in the name of the Lord.

 

[KathleenGee]

My computer went out before I could finish posting…or did it…will look around what i post…It was an ethnic war between Hutus and Tutsi’s, the latter better educated.

It shows that grace works through nature…and things take time, and conversion is a life long process.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Dear CHESTERTOWN RULES: It is a fact that we sold chemical weapons to Iraq durng the 1980’s. It is in the congressional record.

 

[JHow]

…If you believe there was another method, please state it.

12-step program: “Hi, I’m Saddam, and I’m addicted to power! It’s been twelve years since my last Nato incursion.”

“Hi, Saddam!”

 

[thedarknight]

For one thing, I would gauge that it is different from observing the objections and protests of many Christians in America against this Park51 project and also from reading the posts of some of the Christians on this thread.

Thank you for answering.

We have to remember, that Christians in America are not the only group who oppose the Park51 project; Sikhs, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, Muslims as well.

 

[hamba2han]

Thank you for answering.

We have to remember, that Christians in America are not the only group who oppose the Park51 project; Sikhs, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics, Muslims as well.

Have a look at this YouTube video.

It provided me a very good insight on the people who are actively protesting the Park51 project… and I have added my views in the comments section.

You are right though, it is not only Christians who are opposing this Park51 project, I would say that this movement to stop the project is mainly a white “Judaeo-Christian” thing… and these people then wonder why Muslims are so “insensitive” towards their feelings.

 

[thedarknight]

I have nothing against Muslims. I have friends who are Muslims and they have come to America to have a new life from their old countries – ruled and oppressed by shari’a.

In America, my Muslim friends have verbalized they have true freedom and the fullness of human dignity.

The Koran [subsequently the hadith and sharia] with its ambiguity and the de-hellenization of the Muslim mind (take the Koran literally) in the 11th century to present, is fueling today’s terrorism.

Rauf is part of the problem instead of the solution for true “interfaith” dialogue.

Let us read the Mission statement from the Park51 website:

• Encourage dialogue, harmony and respect amongst all people, regardless of race, faith, gender or cultural background.
  • Establish a state-of-the-art eco-friendly facility that will serve as a model and inspiration for sustainable space in an urban context.
  • Cultivate neighborly relations amongst New Yorkers, fostering civic participation
  • Revive the historic Muslim tradition of education, engagement and service.
  • Promote Muslim-Americans identities, engaging New York’s many and diverse Muslim communities.
  • Build partnerships and relationships with institutions who share our values
  • Provide a wide array of social services for children, women & families, seniors immigrants, small business owners and high-need adult populations

(Source: blog.park51.org/?page_id=12)

The mission statement is great but it is not what Rauf envisions, as he uses double talk between Western and Muslim audiences.

In an interview he gave in 2007 to the website HadieIslam, Rauf said, “So the question in our era throughout my discussions with contemporary Muslim theologians is [whether] an Islamic state can be established in more than just in a single form or mold, [whether] it can be established through a kingdom or a democracy. The important issue is to establish the general fundamentals of sharia that are required to govern. It is known that there are sets of standards that are accepted by [Muslim] scholars to organize the relationships between government and the governed. . . . And we also suggest to the governors and political institutions to consult [Muslim] religious institutions and [Muslim] personalities in the field as to assure their decision making to reflect the spirit of sharia.”

…]

“The 64 sharia courts that already operate in Britain severely undermine the rights of women, as has been thoroughly documented in an important study by the group One Law For All.”

(Source: nationalreview.com/articles/246268/one-imam-multiple-messages-ibn-warraq?page=2)

Sharia is medieval and barbaric, undermining the human dignity and the freedom to exercise religion. This is why my Muslim friends left their country, or defected (my Iranian professor in the 1980s) to come to America.

Rauf is also ambiguous with his answers to questions, circumventing around them. This is evident such as the lecture Rauf gave in Australia in 2005:

“We tend to forget, in the West, that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al-Qaeda has on its hands of innocent non-Muslims. You may remember that the U.S.-led sanctions against Iraq led to the death of over half a million Iraqi children. This has been documented by the United Nations. And when Madeleine Albright, who has become a friend of mine over the last couple of years, when she was secretary of state and was asked whether this was worth it, said it was worth it.”

(Source: nationalreview.com/articles/246269/two-faces-feisal-rauf-ibn-warraq?page=1)

Rauf uses the fallacy of tu quoque to say that the terrorist act of September 11 was justified.

Muslims have the right to build the Park51 project as reason would say.

However, it comes down to objective morality.

That is why I am against the Park51 project.

Further reading:

“One Imam, Multiple Messages”
nationalreview.com/articles/246268/one-imam-multiple-messages-ibn-warraq?page=1

“The Two Faces of Feisal Rauf
What’s wrong with What’s Right With Islam.”
nationalreview.com/articles/246269/two-faces-feisal-rauf-ibn-warraq?page=1

**edited to provide links

 

[JHow]

An abundance of white people is all that is necessary to prove bad motives… that and the yellow rattlesnake flags.

For the record, this clip mainly pans the same set of people, but I spotted the following:

Black woman 51 secs
Woman with “Stop Killing Christians in Egypt” sign 1:20
Black woman 2:06
Asian woman 2:16

I’m not counting the two black guys with the camera equipment, obviously.

 

[hamba2han]

An abundance of white people is all that is necessary to prove bad motives… that and the yellow rattlesnake flags.

For the record, this clip mainly pans the same set of people, but I spotted the following:

Black woman 51 secs
Woman with “Stop Killing Christians in Egypt” sign 1:20
Black woman 2:06
Asian woman 2:16

I’m not counting the two black guys with the camera equipment, obviously.

Like I commented:

I guess this anti-mosque movement is primarily a showcase of prejudice against minorities by white people and others who consider themselves white.

There is a name given to them i.e. (1) coconuts – brown on the outside, white inside… (2) bananas – yellow on the outside, white inside.

 

[thedarknight]

Have a look at this YouTube video.

It provided me a very good insight [emphasis mine] on the people who are actively protesting the Park51 project… and I have added my views in the comments section.

If that one video clip provided you a ‘very good insight,’ your views on the Park51 project should be placed under “personal” subjective feelings.

and these people then wonder why Muslims are so “insensitive” towards their feelings

Muslims in America can be “insensitive” because they are protected under the Constitution. Something that is not afforded in places such as Iran and Saudi Arabia.

You are right though, it is not only Christians who are opposing this Park51 project, I would say that this movement to stop the project is mainly a white “Judaeo-Christian” thing… and these people then wonder why Muslims are so “insensitive” towards their feelings.

Interesting, a “Judaeo-Christian” thing?

 

[jakasaki]

Like I commented:

I guess this anti-mosque movement is primarily a showcase of prejudice against minorities by white people and others who consider themselves white.

There is a name given to them i.e. (1) coconuts – brown on the outside, white inside… (2) bananas – yellow on the outside, white inside.

It seems like you are doing your best to shut this thread down.

There is a name given to them i.e. (1) coconuts – brown on the outside, white inside… (2) bananas – yellow on the outside, white inside.

 

[sedonaman]

Like I commented:

I guess this anti-mosque movement is primarily a showcase of prejudice against minorities by white people and others who consider themselves white.

There is a name given to them i.e. (1) coconuts – brown on the outside, white inside… (2) bananas – yellow on the outside, white inside.

So, who does Allah say are “the best of peoples” ?