"Be ye holy..."

[sawman]

“God walk with you, Tom.”
He most certainly is.
Thank you for your blessing, reen.
You would not happen to have a picture of one of those of the four living creatures laying about that you could share?
You are so talented and I’m sure that God has given you sight to see these things.
May our Father bless you !
Tom

 

[reen12]

You would not happen to have a picture of one of those of the four living creatures laying about that you could share?

Tom, I have never come upon a visual rendering of
either St. John’s or the prohpet Ezekiel’s visions that was in any way uplifting.
Hard to visually depict Cherubim, the four living creatures, Ezekiel’s wheel -
and the attempts to do so may end up conveying garish images.

Yet the The Four and Twenty Elders Casting their Crowns before the Divine Throne
by Wm. Blake is not totally off the mark, I think, though more than a hint of the garish is still present.

apocalyptic-theories.com/gallery/throneofgod/blakethrone.jpg

A simple line drawing may be more compelling.

sacred-texts.com/lcr/fsca/img/05200.jpg

C.S. Lewis, in one of his works, notes that the Cherubim
and Seraphim are so wonderous and full of strength and power
that - were we not to know differenlty - we might be tempted
to fall down and worship them.
Surely not the cherubs so often depicted in the art of the
19th and 20th centuries.

T’was the Cherubim who rested atop the Ark of the Covenant,
the glory seat of God- the Shekinah. God’s presence.

Sometimes, a Christian tabernacle is designed with Cerubim
in place.

cgsccdogh.org/pictures/Picture%20038.jpg

reen

 

[reen12]

The imagery that St. John employs needs unpacking. [Rev. 4]

And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven…Rev. 21

gutenberg.org/files/18503/18503-h/images/p358.jpg

As does that of a similar vision by the prophet Ezekiel,
which vision was conveyed in a 19th century spiritual:

"Ezekiel saw the wheel
way up in the middle of the air,
Ezekiel saw the wheel, way in the middle of the air.

• Now the big wheel runs by faith*,
  and the little wheel runs by the grace of God.
  'Tis a wheel, in a wheel, way in the middle of the air…"

The following is a *gorgeous *rendition of this work:
“Ezekiel Saw the Wheel.”

youtube.com/watch?v=I7BMybP1gro

By the time this choir concludes this spiritual,
one knows - with certainty - that ‘Ezekiel saw the wheel.’

It was God’s intention that Ezekiel would see a wheel within a wheel.
If we cannot understand clearly the import of Ezekiel’s vision,
we can surely acknowledge the mysterious ways of God with men.

Why a ‘wheel?’ And a wheel within a wheel?

Wheel as an eternal circle?
Forever. Unending…

Maybe to a childlike heart, if God wants to employ a wheel within a wheel,
so be it. Which is to say, ‘Amen.’

reen

 

[sawman]

Thank you for the links. I agree that the cherubim are not to be taken lightly or should one wish for an encounter at least not in this life. C. S. Lewis does a very good job with angelic beings too, and I also agree that a meeting may be overwhelming for a mere mortal.Ezekiel’s visions have always facinated me. There is much that is hidden from us. We are very probobly better off not seeing the reality that surrounds us invisibly.
The four living creatures though, I wonder. St. John does not hesitate to call a cherubim a cherubim and yet he calls these guys " living creatures". I thought maybe there was some signifigance to that. The description of them does sound like cherubim though.
I do not know languages ( including english ). That is not my speciality. You are certainly learned with this topic and I appreciate your knowledge.God bless you, reen.
Tom

 

[reen12]

The four living creatures though, I wonder. St. John does not hesitate to call a cherubim a cherubim and yet he calls these guys " living creatures". I thought maybe there was some signifigance to that. The description of them does sound like cherubim though.

I am really not learned at all, when it comes to apocalyptic works.
Yet you got me thinking, sawman.

We live in the midst of a highly secularized culture, now.
I can now more identify with Ezekiel - and St. John lived in
the midst of the pagan Roman Empire.

Apparently, Ezekiel was deported to Babylon, after the
destruction of the first Temple. [Israel’s Babylonian Captivity.]

"By the waters of Babylon we sat and wept,
as we remembered thee, O Jerusalem."

This makes perfect sense to me, in terms of Ezekiel’s vision.

Here is a carved figure from the city of Babylon.
They were all over the place.

home.comcast.net/~DiazStudents/MesopotamiaBabylonWingedBull.jpg

Ezekiel must have seen these, as he walked about the city.

Here was tiny Israel, in the midst of ancient peoples who
worshipped a variety of deities.
How to take these misguided beliefs, in the realm of
polytheism, and direct these to the worship of
the One God - the God of Israel?

Here were the Israelites, surrounded by this pagan imagery.
Huge carved figures in the walls of the city.
You couldn’t miss them.

Did God make use of Ezekiel’s experience,
'longside the waters of Babylon? Are the
four living creatures redolent of the figures
seen in Babylon? A way to guide the mind and heart -
from polytheistic thought - and* ground* same in the world of the One, true God?

Thank you for helping me toward an increased appreciaton of the visions of Ezekiel, sawman. http://bestsmileys.com/waving/5.gif

reen

 

[reen12]

The only thing that I’ve ever seen that was redolent of
how regular angels are, [not Cherubim or Seraphim,] was a Christmas performance
of Gloria in excelsis Deo [Glory to God in the highest] by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.

See how the angels glide, almost as if they are not quite touching the ground.
Full of joy in the presence of the all holy God.

“Angels from the realm of Glory…”

youtube.com/watch?v=toKvkuSlAQU&feature=related

Hear the bell ringers expressing their joy!

reen

 

[sawman]

Dear reen,
sorry it took me so long to get back. Thank-you again for your links. That winged bull has always made me think of something like cherubim or the more mysterious living ceatures. I have often wondered about the pagan religions of those times. They seem to have had their own peculiar vision of the heavenlies and their inhabitants. Although in many ways their visions were far darker than the religion of our fathers.
Glory be to God most High.
Tom

 

[sawman]

20 Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his bidding, obedient to his spoken word. 21 Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will. 22 Bless the Lord, all his works, in all places of his dominion. Bless the Lord, O my soul.
psalm 103
Bless Him indeed!

 

[reen12]

I have often wondered about the pagan religions of those times. They seem to have had their own peculiar vision of the heavenlies and their inhabitants. Although in many ways their visions were far darker than the religion of our fathers.
Glory be to God most High.

Yes, they were darker images, and they scare me witless.

When I consider the various idols that man has created
over the millenia, including those of ancient Babylon,
I run like anything, to flee these idols.

Hide me in the shelter of Your wings.
-Psalm 17

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reens

 

[reen12]

As repellent as the stone figures of Babylon were,
I fear that modern culture has raised it’s own ‘idols.’

These modern idols reflect the ‘culture of death.’

*"To claim the right to abortion, infanticide, and euthanasia, and to recognize that right in law, *
*means to attribute to human freedom a perverse and evil significance: that of an absolute power over others *
and against others. This is the death of true freedom." – John Paul II, The Gospel of Life

It is very difficult to remain untouched by the dominant cultural message-
that man is the master all things.

Awash in these cultural idols - and awash in the mindset that accompanies same -
God will reach out and rescue us, if we would only call to Him.

He reached down from heaven and rescued me.
He drew me out of deep waters. He delivered me…
-Psalm 18

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“There is no one holy like the Lord; there is no one besides You…”
1 Samuel 2

Praise to Thee, Master of the universe, in Your infinite Holiness.
You drive out darkness with Thy Presence,
You Who are the source of all light.

reen

 

[sawman]

24 I will take you from the nations, and gather you from all the countries, and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will remove from your body the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put my spirit within you, and make you follow my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances. 28 Then you shall live in the land that I gave to your ancestors; and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Ezekiel 36:24-28
I too see the face of our culture’s idols. They are clearer and clearer every day. These modern idols are as frightening as the ancient ones. In many cases they are the ancient ones. By God’s great kindness and mercy I have been shown how I used to bow down to some of these idols. By this same divine gift I have been given the grace to respond to " Be Ye Holy". God has been giving me a heart of flesh and taking away my heart of stone. I ask Him every day to “send forth Your Spirit O Lord” All this so I can dwell “in the land”.

The pagans served their dark idols without benefit of God’s revelation.We, our culture, serve idols that are even darker and more vicious because we have been given the light and rejected it. So in some ways I think the pagans were far nobler than we. At least maybe, more honest.

" Your deeds, O Lord, have made me glad;
for the work of your hands I shout with joy.
O Lord, how great are your works!
How deep are your designs!
The foolish man cannot know this
and the fool cannot understand."
Psalm 92

" Alas, alas, great city that you are,
Babylon the mighty!
In a single hour your doom has come!"
Rev.18

How glad I am to have shared this with you reen.
Thank you. God bless you!
Tom

 

[reen12]

I too see the face of our culture’s idols. They are clearer and clearer every day.
These modern idols are as frightening as the ancient ones. In many cases they are the ancient ones…

The pagans served their dark idols without benefit of God’s revelation.We, our culture, serve idols
that are even darker and more vicious because we have been given the light and rejected it.
So in some ways I think the pagans were far nobler than we. At least maybe, more honest.
Tom

sawman

I too see the face of our culture’s idols. They are clearer and clearer every day.
These modern idols are as frightening as the ancient ones.
In many cases they are the ancient ones…

I think that a profound observation, sawman.
Modern ‘idols’ are, in point of fact, the same ones -
in different form, and in different guises.

sawman

We, our culture, serve idols that are even darker and more vicious
because we have been given the light and rejected it.

That’s the stunning thing about these modern ‘idols.’
Cannot they be seen for what they are?

Can we not stand back and just look at what is shown on the TV?
Even some of the commercials offend against goodness -
and offend against the sacred nature of man - such nature given to him by God.

Human beings are sacred to Him.

Modern idols wound human beings, with the message:
“Man is the master of all things,
and that man will decide that which constitutes ‘the good.’”

---

Taste not of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

“…for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”
-Genesis 2

Man is not the ‘master of all things.’

reen

 

[reen12]

When modern ‘idols’ seem overwhelming - even appearing in many
nooks and crannies of modern life - I try to soothe the anxiety they create in me,
and sometimes the outright fear these ‘idols’ instill, by remembering Who is Lord of all.

He has made a safe pasture for His sheep, wherein He gives rest and quiet,
and peace of heart and mind.

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reens

 

[sawman]

“Can we not stand back and just look at what is shown on the TV?
Even some of the commercials offend against goodness -
and offend against the sacred nature of man - such nature given to him by God.”

The sneaky thing is, the more TV you watch the less you are able to see. TV is nearly a wholely owned organ of the idols.The idols time-share their influence on TV.
Mammon
Molech
Ishtar
Bealzebub
The gods of violence and harlotry,witchcraft and sorcery inhabit the land . They go about looking for those they can devour. They seek out the poor and the helpless. They are attracted to the blind and the deaf. They use their whiles to wound and disable.

“That’s the stunning thing about these modern ‘idols.’
Cannot they be seen for what they are?”

“Unless you become like one of these little ones” The closer the little sheep clings to the good sheperd, the better she can see. When we become the masters of the universe it is because we are blinded and deaf and disabled. The deeper we put out into the lake, the more we seek " Be Ye Holy" the more we can see and are empowered to see.
Peace, Tom

 

[sawman]

" But wait, there’s more!"
It is funny you should mention the " man is master" idea.The world is seeing a resurgence of the evil philosophy of " man as master" and " man is the measure of all things".This is at it’s root an atheistic pride. It is one of the oldest evils in creation. Our culture is particularly infatuated with this concept. It is a harbinger of death and destruction. It has haunted human civilization forever. " I will not serve!" is the motto.
May we fight the good fight by being small in the eyes of the world. May we overcome by being weak and of no account in the eyes of the world. May we persevere by being wounded and grieving. In the eyes of the world. Those are the eyes that cannot see. Those are the ears that cannot hear.
I do pray " Blessed be the most Holy Name!"
Blessed be You, O Lord, our God!
" Blessed are You who look into the depths
from Your throne upon the cherubim,
praiseworthy and exalted above all forever.
Blessed are You in the firmament of heaven,
Praiseworthy and glorious forever!"

Peace Tom

 

[reen12]

The world is seeing a resurgence of the evil philosophy of “man as master”
and “man is the measure of all things”.
…May we fight the good fight by being small in the eyes of the world.
May we overcome by being weak and of no account in the eyes of the world.
May we persevere by being wounded and grieving. In the eyes of the world.
Those are the eyes that cannot see. Those are the ears that cannot hear.

There is much in both of your posts that I would address, sawman,
and I begin in this way.

An ‘idol’ can be made out of any of God’s creatures -
when the creature is exalted above the Creator.

There are many in our day who have a blessed concern
for all of God’s creation. As the steward’s of His creation.

But there are also those, I fear, who exalt the creature over
the Creator.

When an unfortunate whale washes up onto a beach,
people leap in to help.

Yet everytime I see this, I think of the practice
of partial-birth abortion. A cold horror. Who leaps to
the defense of this infant? Who cherishes the
beloved life of this infant, the most helpless among us?

In the new Nature Religion [which is not at all new
in the annals of man,]
has the whale or the dolphin become a new idol?
Where the life of a whale is exalted above that
of an unborn child?

---

Is this another instance of the golden calf?
Another animal - selected from God’s creation -
who is then to be worshipped as an idol,
upon a rude altar created in the mind?

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reen

 

[reen12]

“Unless you become like one of these little ones” The closer the little sheep clings to the good sheperd,
the better she can see. When we become the masters of the universe it is because we are blinded
and deaf and disabled. The deeper we put out into the lake, the more we seek " Be Ye Holy"
the more we can see and are empowered to see.

You shall indeed hear but never understand, and you shall indeed see but never perceive.
For this people’s heart has grown dull, and their ears are heavy of hearing, and their eyes they have closed - lest they should perceive with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn for Me to heal them.
(Isaiah 6:9-10)

I sometimes think that it is those who have endured profound limitations -
in myriad expressions - who understand, to the depth of their being, their
need for God. They have no illusions - as to men and women being the
Masters of the Universe. Often, they are just trying to take the next tiny
step possible, holding onto God for dear life.

And does God make use of their shattered selves,
to bring light to others?

Does God use even a shattered vessel to carry the waters of Siloe?

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a106/reen12/Shatteredvessela.jpg

reen

 

[sawman]

reen,
There are creatures that in their natural order would cause us to worship them because of our relative smallness and weakness. This we must never do though. I marvel at some of these creatures nonetheless. I am filled with awe at the sight of the full moon for instance. I marvel at God’s handiwork, making me in such relation to His moon that I should be awestruck by it. I have never seen a cherubim, but I am certain that I would melt into a puddle of old man fat if I did. Awe and real fear I think would be my response. This too is somehow appropriate. Only One deserves true worship. This I strive for, to rid myself of all distractions,to awake fully to realness and put aside what is passing and false.
I think maybe God does give us times when if we’re lucky, we can see Him and hear Him and know Him better than we could before. Quite often for me that has been in the crucible of humiliation and want. i now can thank Him for the suffering in my life because I now know Him better for it. There is no price that I can pay for the priveledge of knowing Him better. May I never fail to take advantage of every opportunity He sends my way, for I have squandered so many in the past.
God bless you reen
Peace, Tom

 

[reen12]

sawman

Only One deserves true worship. This I strive for, to rid myself of all distractions,
to awake fully to realness and put aside what is passing and false.

It’s harder, I think, in one’s youth, to recognize the ‘passing and false.’
For one thing, one hasn’t lived long enough to even adequately contemplate that which passes away.
We have little to measure it by. Yet as life goes forward we may recognize, clearly, the words of St. Teresa.

Let nothing disturb you. Let nothing frighten you.
All things pass away. God never changes.
…One who has God lacks nothing…

-St. Teresa of Avila

My mother passed away last Thanksgiving morning of
advanced Alzheimers. Mom would have been 90 last month.
To see her become near emaciated, her mind dimmed,
brought the words of a hymn that comforted me.

O Thou Who changes not, abide with me…

I thank God for His mercy to my mother, taking Mom
home with Him, for now she is with Him, beyond all that passes away.

No, men and women are not the Masters of the Universe.

youtube.com/watch?v=Rw5TtwJFIKU

Abide With Me

Abide with me; fast falls the eventide;
The darkness deepens; Lord with me abide.
When other helpers fail and comforts flee,
Help of the helpless, O abide with me.

Swift to its close ebbs out life’s little day;
Earth’s joys grow dim; its glories pass away;
Change and decay in all around I see;
O Thou who changest not, abide with me.

** **…I need Thy presence every passing hour.
What but Thy grace can foil the tempter’s power?
Who, like Thyself, my guide and stay can be?
Through cloud and sunshine, Lord, abide with me.

---

…I fear no foe, with Thee at hand to bless;
Ills have no weight, and tears no bitterness.
Where is death’s sting? Where, grave, thy victory?
I triumph still, if Thou abide with me.

Hold Thou Thy cross before my closing eyes;
Shine through the gloom and point me to the skies.
Heaven’s morning breaks, and earth’s vain shadows flee;
In life, in death, O Lord, abide with me.

reen

 

[sawman]

reen,
I am sorry for the loss of your mother. My wife lost her mom last October. My folks are 80.
Life can become very tedious at that age. Yet I am grateful for the hope of more years, as I see how far astray my earlier years have left me. God’s mercy does often come through suffering. It seems to be a purgation and an opurtunity for acceptance. How many times I’ve declared that I don’t want this from God, or that. Now that I’ve lived this long I can see with my own eyes that He does not change. He wants this for my life, He will have it. He wants that for my life, He will have it. Blessed be the name of the Lord! May your will be done! The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh, blessed be the Lord. May I always be willing to accept with good will and confidence in His abiding love. Trusting Him has taken me a long time to learn. So a long life is a mercy, a chance to learn the ways of heaven.

“18 For thus says the Lord, who created the heavens (he is God!), who formed the earth and made it (he established it; he did not create it a chaos, he formed it to be inhabited!): I am the Lord, and there is no other. 19 I did not speak in secret, in a land of darkness; I did not say to the offspring of Jacob, “Seek me in chaos.” I the Lord speak the truth, I declare what is right. 20 Assemble yourselves and come together, draw near, you survivors of the nations! They have no knowledge— those who carry about their wooden idols, and keep on praying to a god that cannot save. 21 Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the Lord? There is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is no one besides me. 22 Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 By myself I have sworn, from my mouth has gone forth in righteousness a word that shall not return: “To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.” 24 Only in the Lord, it shall be said of me, are righteousness and strength; all who were incensed against him shall come to him and be ashamed. 25 In the Lord all the offspring of Israel shall triumph and glory.” Is.45

Triumph and Glory.
He is the Lord, there is no other.
Peace, Tom