Beam me up, Scotty

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The Starship Enterprise is taking off soon… I enjoyed your company, though none of my questions have even been answered to my satisfaction. So here is a last one, which is not supposed to lead to a debate, it is just a straightforward question. You guys kept saying the same phrase over and over again, namely that “God is love”.

Now, what can you bring up to substantiate this claim? Please don’t bother with John 3:16, since that is just a story. I ask you to bring up factual evidence, that God loves all of us, equally. Something that shows God’s alleged love, here and now. Something that indicates that God cares about us, cares about our problems, about our misery (of which there is too much). If you bring up something, please think about the possible objection. If you say that action “X” in situation “Z” shows God’s love, ponder why that action “X” is not visible in other situations.

Maybe sometime in the future the Enterprise will return, and I will return with it. In the meantime I will try to tap into the communication link and see your replies - though due to time dilation I might not be able to send a reply.

Live long and prosper.

\//

Spock
 
Spock, I highly recommend that you read the book “Theology and Sanity” by Frank Sheed. It will address your many questions. It is a deep book and not a quick read, but it is a good read with much to meditate on.

You are asking questions that require deep answers, and unfortunately I’ve rarely seen that from a forum, this or any other.

God’s blessings to you on your search for answers.
 
You are looking for factual/historical proof you need look no further than the cross. You cannot see the Love of your creator because you have been blinded by the deception of the world. If you actually try to understand and not just disprove you will start finding many many other proofs. But “YOU” need to look deeper than you may be willing to for fear God exists. As has been said by many " Fear Not " for your father in heaven is a loving forgiving father and awaits your return. 🙂
Praying for you brother
jim
 
Spock said:
. I ask you to bring up factual evidence, that God loves all of us, equally. Something that shows God’s alleged love, here and now.
Live long and prosper.

\//

Spock
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you exist
if God ceased to love you, then you would cease to exist
 
Spock said:
Something that shows God’s alleged love, here and now. Something that indicates that God cares about us, cares about our problems, about our misery (of which there is too much). If you bring up something, please think about the possible objection. If you say that action “X” in situation “Z” shows God’s love, ponder why that action “X” is not visible in other situations.
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The simple fact that we all exist as persons with creativity, self-awareness, spiritual awareness, moral awareness, appreciation of the beauty of art, music and nature, the power of reason, intuition, free will, imagination, physical sentience and skill, control of our environment, family and social relations, a capacity for love and a longing for justice and perfection which most of us have very good reasons to believe will be fulfilled when we die…
 
jpjd said:
Spock, I highly recommend that you read the book “Theology and Sanity” by Frank Sheed. It will address your many questions. It is a deep book and not a quick read, but it is a good read with much to meditate on.

You are asking questions that require deep answers, and unfortunately I’ve rarely seen that from a forum, this or any other.

God’s blessings to you on your search for answers.
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I agree with that. I share Spock’s frustration. I received a few helpful leads to answers in my thread on Atheism vs Theism but most are all the same pablum. I don’t believe hardly anybody reads the sources I am trying to refute (if refutable by a Christian response) so as to be informed before they respond. They just fly off the cuff as if they merely want to debate (although poorly informed) rather than to try to provide a thoughtful informed response that might help me.

I get the feeling from some of his replies that liquidpele was much like me at some point but could not find anyone to answer his questions so he lost his faith. I have been losing mine for a while.Some like reggieM and StillWondering try, but I don’t think they are fully informed on the arguments their facing. I don’t know who is. I think I am going to call the apologist line again and hopefully I get more than referral to March 2009 This Rock or a few tracts. I want some Q&A on some things.Shame on anyone here who treats apologetics as a mere sport to achieve a victory.

Thanks for the Frank Sheed recommendation. I have heard him recommended on audiosancto.org/ (sermons) and unlike some of the Catholic “apologists” on this forum I will investigate leads I have been given. I have always been a seeker of truth.

Summa8447
 
Hi Spock,

I hope to see you around here again. I’ll do my best to answer your question.

Love manifests itself in a great variety of ways. One of these ways is in our very desire to achieve union with God and find happiness. We have an innate desire to not just find some level of happiness, but to find perfect happiness. Now, every innate desire corresponds to something that can satisfy it. If we are hungry, there is food; if we are thirsty, there is drink; if we are curious, there is knowledge; if there is sexual desire, there is sex; and so forth.

Obviously, there are desires that cannot be satisfied. I would love to drive a Porsche, but that doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. 🙂 However, this is an example of a conditioned desired, not an innate desire. The test to see whether or not a desire is innate is if it is found universally. Food is universally desired, whereas a Porsche is not. Perfect happiness, I think, is found universally among human beings, so it is an innate desire.

What this implies is that there truly is something that can fulfill our desire for perfect happiness. But, nothing in this world is capable of satisfying this desire; so to paraphrase C.S. Lewis, “I must have been made for another world.”

Love offers perfect happiness, and it is often in our darkest hour that we see this most clearly. As the saying goes, sometimes it has to get really dark before you can see the stars.

My thoughts and prayers are with you, friend.
 
liquidpele said:
So why did God kill a bunch of people in the OT instead of them just ceasing to exist?
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they disobeyed and suffered the consequence of their actions, they continue to exist for all eternity, we don’t know whether in heaven or hell, you think it is more merciful to simply snuff people out of existence, or never create them at all?

if you can find one example anywhere in the universe, anywhere in history, of disinterested pure love, then you must admit the existence of God because God is love.
 
Spock said:
The Starship Enterprise is taking off soon… I enjoyed your company, though none of my questions have even been answered to my satisfaction. So here is a last one, which is not supposed to lead to a debate, it is just a straightforward question. You guys kept saying the same phrase over and over again, namely that “God is love”.

Now, what can you bring up to substantiate this claim? Please don’t bother with John 3:16, since that is just a story. I ask you to bring up factual evidence, that God loves all of us, equally. Something that shows God’s alleged love, here and now. Something that indicates that God cares about us, cares about our problems, about our misery (of which there is too much). If you bring up something, please think about the possible objection. If you say that action “X” in situation “Z” shows God’s love, ponder why that action “X” is not visible in other situations.

Maybe sometime in the future the Enterprise will return, and I will return with it. In the meantime I will try to tap into the communication link and see your replies - though due to time dilation I might not be able to send a reply.

Live long and prosper.

\//

Spock
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See you on the other side, Spock. The question you ask is not one perfect for the short, typically poorly detailed answer that is doomed to leave you with nothing more than you began the question with. Please read the attached to the end. It is short enough and well worth the read. My thanks to TheWhim for the URL.

communio-icr.com/articles/PDF/spaemann32-4.pdf

Peace brother, and God bless:

jd
 
How has it seemed to you that your questions are unanswered? I have read some of your threads and it seems to me your questions have been answered again and again, from many different angles. If you thought people on a forum were sitting in university specialty libraries with stacks of documentation handy for any subject, and hours to finish a post, well, not me.
 
Spock said:
The Starship Enterprise is taking off soon… I enjoyed your company, though none of my questions have even been answered to my satisfaction. So here is a last one, which is not supposed to lead to a debate, it is just a straightforward question. You guys kept saying the same phrase over and over again, namely that “God is love”.

Now, what can you bring up to substantiate this claim? Please don’t bother with John 3:16, since that is just a story. I ask you to bring up factual evidence, that God loves all of us, equally. Something that shows God’s alleged love, here and now. Something that indicates that God cares about us, cares about our problems, about our misery (of which there is too much). If you bring up something, please think about the possible objection. If you say that action “X” in situation “Z” shows God’s love, ponder why that action “X” is not visible in other situations.

Maybe sometime in the future the Enterprise will return, and I will return with it. In the meantime I will try to tap into the communication link and see your replies - though due to time dilation I might not be able to send a reply.

Live long and prosper.

\//

Spock
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I remember my old Protestant pastor once querying God’s “Love”. He said, “I sometimes wonder if it’s true. He seems to write people off pretty easily.”

I think it’s going to depend on what we mean by “Love”. He’s not soft. The dog-eat-dog world of nature is His design, mixed in with colossal beauty. Cheek by jowl with the cuteness of most young animals is the reality that most of them will suffer a violent death of one sort or another, many of them while still young, and at the claws and teeth of carnivores which God Himself designed. We have a cat, which we’re fairly kind to. But she doesn’t reciprocate with the least bit of kindness to birds or any other small creature she gets her claws on. And it was God who built in the instinct to kill and before killing, toy with her captive.

The universe He has designed is dangeously indifferent to us once we move outside the confines of this planet, and even on this planet there are dangers eg. earthquakes, tornados, tsunamis, floods, storms at sea, and disease. There is sometimes famine and starvation.

He promises judgment for those who disobey or ignore Him. The price for our forgiveness was the crucifixion of His own Son.

So the one hand we have this infinitely Holy God, who’s not soft, and on the other an infinitely evil adversary, the Devil, who hates our guts.

I think we’d be better trying to find a definition of “Love” as it relates to God, and I suspect it has a lot to do with what might be called “Infinite Holiness”. Hence Love and Judgment become two sides of the same coin.

Unfortunately when it comes to sin and unholiness, we’re like the puppy who is dragged off to the hated bath, in our case confession. As soon as it’s over, it wants nothing more than to get back to its comfortable dirtiness.

It think it depends on what you mean by “Love”. In the case of God, it certainly isn’t the stuff peddled by Hollywood, or the marketeers.

To be honest I don’t like God sometimes. I’ve had far too many spiritual experiences to deny He exists, and I am equally certain the Devil exists also. But in some respects I often feel I’ve been treated unfairly. Yet I suppose that if He did deign to answer me, He wouldn’t answer the question. He’d probably just give me a Tour de Force as He did Job.

And no explanation.
 
Spock said:
The Starship Enterprise is taking off soon… I enjoyed your company, though none of my questions have even been answered to my satisfaction.
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I apologize. I did my best. I enjoyed your company too. I have much respect for you and have been impressed by your intelligence, despite our disagreements.
Spock said:
So here is a last one, which is not supposed to lead to a debate, it is just a straightforward question. You guys kept saying the same phrase over and over again, namely that “God is love”.

Now, what can you bring up to substantiate this claim? Please don’t bother with John 3:16, since that is just a story. I ask you to bring up factual evidence, that God loves all of us, equally. Something that shows God’s alleged love, here and now. Something that indicates that God cares about us, cares about our problems, about our misery (of which there is too much). If you bring up something, please think about the possible objection. If you say that action “X” in situation “Z” shows God’s love, ponder why that action “X” is not visible in other situations.
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I may be wrong, but I’m quite sure that God’s love is a bit too shrouded in mystery without divine revelation. Hence, there is no factual evidence that God loves all of us equally (for “factual evidence” would mean data that all accept).

But, if I’m horribly wrong, then someone please correct me … because this is kind of an important point … and hence would be good to know.
Spock said:
Live long and prosper.

\//

Spock
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Peace and long life.

\//

Areopagite
 
Spock said:
The Starship Enterprise is taking off soon… I enjoyed your company, though none of my questions have even been answered to my satisfaction. So here is a last one, which is not supposed to lead to a debate, it is just a straightforward question. You guys kept saying the same phrase over and over again, namely that “God is love”.

Now, what can you bring up to substantiate this claim? Please don’t bother with John 3:16, since that is just a story. I ask you to bring up factual evidence, that God loves all of us, equally. Something that shows God’s alleged love, here and now. Something that indicates that God cares about us, cares about our problems, about our misery (of which there is too much). If you bring up something, please think about the possible objection. If you say that action “X” in situation “Z” shows God’s love, ponder why that action “X” is not visible in other situations.

Maybe sometime in the future the Enterprise will return, and I will return with it. In the meantime I will try to tap into the communication link and see your replies - though due to time dilation I might not be able to send a reply.

Live long and prosper.

\//

Spock
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Hey Spock
The fact that people put up with these questions and keep up the conversation is a testament to the love that God has poured out to give them the endurance to keep on keeping on for your sake just to help you see that it is God who loves you too
And may this same God bless you always!
 
I need to run out soon, so will write something later if I have the time. You ask us to substantiate the phrase “God is love”?

Very well, I submit the crucifixion, and propose to your attention NT Wright, Evil and the Justice of God
 
The existence of the universe. The universe only exists because God is selfless Love. A selfish god would have been content to remain in his own presence for eternity. God would not bring anything into existence if it weren’t for His love; in other words, if it weren’t for God’s love for us, what motive would he have to create us? Unless, I suppose, we are means to a higher goal, but somewhere down the line there is something or someone God loves enough to create a whole universe for it.

My thoughts, anyhow. I’ll miss reading Spock’s threads.
 
Scotty:It sounds to me that you are asking to see God personally do something.But you cant possibly mean that can you?Or are you really asking to prove God?
 
Spock my first responce is that I do not respond to drive-by postings. Then I read a few post and thought maybe I should give a responce. How to prove that God is Love? The first thing that come to mind is we arre here. That God has told us in scripture how to live and what we can expect if he do so, and what happens if we don’t. If he was not love why would he have bothered?

I do not expect you to accept anything that is written here are anywhere for that matter. I to beleive takes an a act of faith to begin with. One must start with prayer, true honest prayer. Not asking for things like God is a genie in a bottle to grant wishes, but true honest prayer ( conversation). Conversion an take serveral years or a few moments, it gratly depends on how open you are to it. There is a Painting of Jesus standing at a door knocking, If you look you will see that there is not a handle on that side of the door. It musst be opened from within. God will only come in to your life if you ask him in. I his love he will stand there and let you chooce to ignor him.

All that we need to know is there and until we make ourselves open to it, will any of it make any since to us. Nor will we be able to accept untill we first become willing to believe.

May you and others open the door to your heart and let him in. The choice is yours alone,
nothing anyone here can say can do it for you.

For me that is god love he loves us so much he is willing to lets do whatever we think will make us happy. All the while knowing that only with him can we truely be happy. He stands at the Door and Knocks. He will not knock it down
 
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