In the USA the Roman Church as adopted an Anglican Use rite. There are only 6 I think parishes scattered throughout the country. Search/google and you will find it. Our Lady of the Atonement (?) in Texas is the biggest one I beleive with 3 AU Masses each Lord’s Day. On Fr Dwight Longnecker’s blog he has a link to their church. Fr. Longnecker is a former Anglican Priest.Why could the RCC not have developed a Mass along this pattern for use today? It might have satisfied traditionalists AND those who wanted a Mass in the vernacular. It has the beauty of the traditional Latin Mass. When the Mass was revised after Vatican II, why did they so completely move away from the majesty of the Tridentine Mass?
BTW, I realize that by nature the original Mass in the early centuries of Christianity must have been somewhat simplistic.
The use of the Anglican Use (so to speak) is supposed to be a temporary expedient to assist an Anglican parish or group of Anglicans, who convert en masse, and have a priest who is formerly Anglican, now ordained under the Pastoral Provision. All told, I’d guess there have been around 20+ such AU parishes established, including one in my hometown, started from a group of traditional Anglicans, part of whom started my own traditional Anglican parish. We were sort of sister parishes. And now there are around 5-7 such AU parishes. That will change.St. Mary the Virgin in Arlington, Texas, used to have the Anglican Use rite as its mid-morning high Mass and I loved to go there because of the music. I hadn’t gone in awhile and when I did recently, they were using Latin and Gregorian chant for the sung prayers. Not what I was expecting. I read in the bulletin that the Anglican Use rite is now the very early morning one on Sundays.
Dispensation for the Anglican Use is supposed to be temporary, isn’t it? Presumably to give the congregation time to acclimate to being Catholic and part of the diocese? Not sure, however.
I keep saying I’m going to do double-duty on Sunday, go to Mass at my parish and also go to an Anglican church for the music!
A reference to those Texas parishes, such as Atonement, that do have a provision for some long-life.GKC,
Yes, that’s what I thought. And it was an en masse conversion from an Anglican parish to Catholic.
What do you mean by “Trophy” churches?
That would be sad as it is such a reverent style of worship and would seem to meet needs of the traditionalists and modernists. I find NO too bland and shallow. I am not sure I am up for TLM (Latin). I accept there are those that prefer one or the other. Catholics have such a treasure in the reverent worship. This Anglican video (Sarum Rite) was surely adapted from earlier traditional Roman Catholic worship. It would be nice too see something like this in RC Churches again. I think that majesty is what many Protestants think of when they think of Catholic Masses.The use of the Anglican Use (so to speak) is supposed to be a temporary expedient to assist an Anglican parish or group of Anglicans, who convert en masse, and have a priest who is formerly Anglican, now ordained under the Pastoral Provision. All told, I’d guess there have been around 20+ such AU parishes established, including one in my hometown, started from a group of traditional Anglicans, part of whom started my own traditional Anglican parish. We were sort of sister parishes. And now there are around 5-7 such AU parishes. That will change.
Except for the trophy churches in Texas, such as OL of Atonement, almost all AU parishes eventually will convert to either NO or the extraordinary use of the TLM. Unless the system itself changes.
GKC
*Anglicanus-Catholicus *
No the Anglican Use Mass is not temporary. That is a misunderstanding by some people. If you have questions regarding this issue please contact the Society of St. Thomas More or Father Phillips at Our Lady of Atonement. For some reason, ususally persons who belong to either an Episcopal church or a continuing Anglican church keep making this comment. It has been suggested many times before that this is not true, but the same people continue to make this statement. The Pastoral Provision has been established for over 28 years now and there are three new ones starting.St. Mary the Virgin in Arlington, Texas, used to have the Anglican Use rite as its mid-morning high Mass and I loved to go there because of the music. I hadn’t gone in awhile and when I did recently, they were using Latin and Gregorian chant for the sung prayers. Not what I was expecting. I read in the bulletin that the Anglican Use rite is now the very early morning one on Sundays.
Dispensation for the Anglican Use is supposed to be temporary, isn’t it? Presumably to give the congregation time to acclimate to being Catholic and part of the diocese? Not sure, however.
I keep saying I’m going to do double-duty on Sunday, go to Mass at my parish and also go to an Anglican church for the music!
I’m fairly certain that Merton '97 was Catholic.Here is a beautiful Anglican Mass using the Sarum Rite (Use of Salisbury) at Merton College Oxford University.
youtube.com/watch?v=21pnAoiGnjs&feature=related
I’m the same person and we’ve been over this before. I didn’t say the AU was temporary. I said its use at a given parish almost always is temporary. You may remember when I posted the average ages for AU parishes now in existence. Within Texas, it was over 20 years (IIRC), and outside is was something like 5-6 years, skewed primarily in each case by 1 or 2 parishes. IOW, setting aside Atonement and Walsingham, the average age of an AU parish was only a couple of years.No the Anglican Use Mass is not temporary. That is a misunderstanding by some people. If you have questions regarding this issue please contact the Society of St. Thomas More or Father Phillips at Our Lady of Atonement. For some reason, ususally persons who belong to either an Episcopal church or a continuing Anglican church keep making this comment. It has been suggested many times before that this is not true, but the same people continue to make this statement. The Pastoral Provision has been established for over 28 years now and there are three new ones starting.
I have no idea where this misinformation came from, but sometimes I feel that former Anglicans use this as an excuse not to come into Christ’s True Church.
Rumors always run amok and if someone wants to know what the Catholic Church believes they should go to the source, not from hearsay. I have spoken to several AU priests and have validated what I said.
It is too bad that so many former Anglicans just can’t accept the authority of the Church. In my opinion that is what holds them back from entering the Church.
I have read many quotes on websites from continuing Anglicans, many who belong to TAC and they don’t want to be fully Catholic. That is their choice. If there are some who want to enter the Church as a parish and have a priest they can contact St. Thomas More Society for information on what their approach should be to enter the Church within the Pastoral Provision.
I have attended St. Mary the Virgin in Arlington and they are the only AU parish I know of that deviates from the Anglican Use Rite I liturgy. That could change if another priest becomes pastor. I have no idea why the Rite I is not used at the High Mass. As far as Latin and Gregorian chant being used there is nothing wrong with its use at times.
I am sad that there is such confusion among some people regarding the Pastoral Provision being temporary. The only way it would be absorbed into a Latin Rite use is if no one attended the parish. There have been pastors who have retired and been replaced with another Anglican Use priest, so that is also not a viable response from those who seem to want the Anglican Use to dissapear.
God Bless
Bernadette
The parishes that closed were due to the fact that the priest retired or was ill. Yes at the time they had no priest to replace him. Also I believe that they were small parishes. I know that the Pastoral Provision is not just for former Anglicans, but it was former Episcopal priests that approaced Rome and that is how it was put into place, for these priests. They also wanted a Prelature, but that cannot happen until the Church approves it. This is a possibility if some of the US Anglicans were to come through the Pastoral Provision. There are only two parishes that I know of that were closed except for one of the original ones. If one were to look around them they would see dozens of Latin Rite parishes closing.I’m the same person and we’ve been over this before. I didn’t say the AU was temporary. I said its use at a given parish almost always is temporary. You may remember when I posted the average ages for AU parishes now in existence. Within Texas, it was over 20 years (IIRC), and outside is was something like 5-6 years, skewed primarily in each case by 1 or 2 parishes. IOW, setting aside Atonement and Walsingham, the average age of an AU parish was only a couple of years.
And I didn’t say an AU parish would necessarily be absorbed into an AU parish, though I suppose it could be. What I said was that it would become either a NO parish or an extraordinary form parish using the TLM. That was precisely what happened to the AU parish of the Good Shepherd, in my home town. It’s still there, and now uses the TLM.
Do not confuse Pastoral Provision with AU. They are separate things. And I am not saying Pastoral Provision is temporary, either. But since it is the source of priests for the AU, it’s a limiting factor. Were the AU to become a Rite or a Prelature, with a guaranteed source of priests to serve it, things might be different. But they aren’t. Good Shepherd had one follow-on priest, who (IIRC) had been there from the start, who took over for a while after the original priest became incapacitated. And then they converted, first to NO, then to TLM as an indult parish, now to TLM.
And I am not an opponent of the AU, far from it. I don’t know an Anglican who is. A RC friend of mine did the frontispiece for the Book of Divine Worship. If I were in charge, there would be widespread use of the Use, in the RC. I think it would be an improvement over the NO, at least ( and a still better improvement would have used the 1928 Book as a start, rather than the 1979). I’m very fond of the AU and happy to see it in the RC and wish it would flourush. But I don’t see it flourishing there and that’s my point. There are (I’m not going to look it all up again) about 8-9 AU groups, including the 6 parishes in Texas. Which includes 3-4 groups not yet formal parishes that have begun in the last couple of years. Over the past 29 years or so there have been maybe 20 such groups formed. What do you suppose happened to the rest of them? Drop by Good Shepherd, on Calhoun St., and see an example.
Don’t mistake history for hostility.
GKC
m
Yes. The closed parishes who lost their (formerly Anglican) priest were eventually closed because there is no regular, formal means to provide a replacement. No such means were thought necessary since the AU is designed to be a transitional situation, for a given parish; not permanent; IOW the AU differs from a formal Rite. Of course, they need not be closed; they can transition to another form of the Latin Rite. But they don’t continue as AU.
The point I as making about the Pastoral Provision was not that it was not limited to Episcopalians (it is only operative in the US), but that it is not directly related to the AU. The AU is a Rite which a priest who comes into the RCC under the Provision may, but not necessarily must, use.
What you say about the attitude of many of the American RC hierarchy toward the AU is quite true. One reason why it is so rare.
You assume incorrectly. I am not member of the TAC, or its American jurisdiction, the Anglican Church in America. I am a different sort of Continuing Anglican. But I have watched with interest the dance that the TAC has been saying it has been having with Rome, for around 12 years. I am doubtful that anything will come of it. Some of the issues are that it is top down driven, in the TAC, not a broad-based popular movement. There is certainly a potential problem with their bishops, many of whom are married, though their declared position is that they are ready to step aside. And overall is the fact that there is not wide-spread support in Rome (and hasn’t been, from the beginning) for a mass acceptance, in any form, of the TAC, as opposed to individual submission. It was precisely that attitude that stopped the Pastoral Provision, aided by the Anglican Use, as a transitional tool, from being established in England, for example. Bottom line: I doubt that anything will come from the TAC story, but I still watch. Note that all the info comes from the TAC, nothing from Rome. But the TAC and its odyssey is not related to the situation of the AU, as it was formed and as it currently exists…
I repeat: Good Shepherd wasn’t closed, when it lost its last Anglican priest, because it was a viable parish, and what was done was what was intended to be done with AU parishes all along: it transitioned to another form of the Latin Rite. That is the eventual end of all AU parishes, save the big ones in Texas, unless a change in the system occurs.
Whatever tone you seem to discern in my posts is doubtless the result of my verbal infelicity.
And another point we have covered is the relationship of the AU to Rite I of the 79 book. It is roughly 75% identical. I am not interested in covering that again, but it is so. Since it is based on the Sarum Rite, as is the 1928 Book, and, indeed, as is the 1549 Book, that is not surprising.
Do remember that I have no hostility toward the RCC or the AU, and my history of posting here over the years supports that. What I am is a history buff. And an Anglican.
GKC
bernadettem;5648887:
m
yes. The closed parishes who lost their (formerly anglican) priest were eventually closed because there is no regular, formal means to provide a replacement. No such means were thought necessary since the au is designed to be a transitional situation, for a given parish; not permanent; iow the au differs from a formal rite. Of course, they need not be closed; they can transition to another form of the latin rite. But they don’t continue as au.
The point i as making about the pastoral provision was not that it was not limited to episcopalians (it is only operative in the us), but that it is not directly related to the au. The au is a rite which a priest who comes into the rcc under the provision may, but not necessarily must, use.
What you say about the attitude of many of the american rc hierarchy toward the au is quite true. One reason why it is so rare.
You assume incorrectly. I am not member of the tac, or its american jurisdiction, the anglican church in america. I am a different sort of continuing anglican. But i have watched with interest the dance that the tac has been saying it has been having with rome, for around 12 years. I am doubtful that anything will come of it. Some of the issues are that it is top down driven, in the tac, not a broad-based popular movement. There is certainly a potential problem with their bishops, many of whom are married, though their declared position is that they are ready to step aside. And overall is the fact that there is not wide-spread support in rome (and hasn’t been, from the beginning) for a mass acceptance, in any form, of the tac, as opposed to individual submission. It was precisely that attitude that stopped the pastoral provision, aided by the anglican use, as a transitional tool, from being established in england, for example. Bottom line: I doubt that anything will come from the tac story, but i still watch. Note that all the info comes from the tac, nothing from rome. But the tac and its odyssey is not related to the situation of the au, as it was formed and as it currently exists…
I repeat: Good shepherd wasn’t closed, when it lost its last anglican priest, because it was a viable parish, and what was done was what was intended to be done with au parishes all along: It transitioned to another form of the latin rite. That is the eventual end of all au parishes, save the big ones in texas, unless a change in the system occurs.
GKC
I just e-mailed an AU priest and your above statement about AU parishes being a transitional parish to be turned into a latin rite parish is not correct. Please contact legitimate sources. Some of your statements are misinformed. The AU parishes are to be permanent, this is from rome itself. Yes there have been times where there is no AU priest to take over a parish, but there are now several young men who are going into the priesthood from AU parishes and will be able to serve these parishes.
I don’t believe that Rome expects all members of TAC to submit on an individual basis in the US. Furhtermore I don’t accept the fact that Rome is against former Anglicans from coming into the Church as a group. Of course there are individual Bishops who have blocked some requests for an AU parish, but as I said before more Bishops are opening their hearts to these groups. If there is a priest and a congregation in TAC in the US they can go through the Pastoral Provision. The problems with TAC are that many of the members don’t want Rome and the relationship in the United Kingdom is a whole different situation. The Church recognizes the problems with the internal workings of TAC and I am sure they know it would be a disaster to just accept the whole group on the words of as you say the top.
Yours in Christ
Bernadette
whatever tone you seem to discern in my posts is doubtless the result of my verbal infelicity.
And another point we have covered is the relationship of the au to rite i of the 79 book. It is roughly 75% identical. I am not interested in covering that again, but it is so. Since it is based on the sarum rite, as is the 1928 book, and, indeed, as is the 1549 book, that is not surprising.
Do remember that i have no hostility toward the rcc or the au, and my history of posting here over the years supports that. What i am is a history buff. And an anglican.
Gkc
A beautiful service indeed. I am an ex-Catholic turned Anglican and have had the opportunity to attend some very beautiful high-church Eucharists such as the one you have produced here. It is the Anglican church that has gotten me to the place where I attend church regularly and have once again become an attentive person to God’s Holy word and Sacrements.Here is a beautiful Anglican Mass using the Sarum Rite (Use of Salisbury) at Merton College Oxford University.
youtube.com/watch?v=21pnAoiGnjs&feature=related