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Maciosaig
Guest
Jesus already died for my sins, I confess my sins daily and every Sunday, I also try to live as good as I can. I fear no “purgatory”
- Status
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
It’s too early for a sense of humor
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TimothyH
Guest
Paul walked with fear and trembling but he had great confidence that he had run the race and well and would wear the victor’s crown.
We forget that hope is one of the three theological virtues. Hope is a desire, and we whould desire heaven above all things. Paul had a great desire for heaven, and so he had great hope. We’ve got to be people of hope. God is my life. Jesus is my life. Jesus isn’t just the center of my life, but is my life and I plan to claw my way to heaven, with fear and trembling, but like Paul I have great hope, because I understand a little of what Paul understood.
Every word and every act of Christ was ordered to our redemption. Every breath Christ ever breathed was so that I could be redeemed. God loves you and I personally, so much that he became one of us and allowed us to nail him to a tree so that we could be with him.
He loved his own in the world and he loved them to the end. (John 13:1)
Jesus loved them, and loved me, me personally, to the end. To the bitter end. That’s how much God the Father loves us. That’s how much God wants us to be with him. and that is the message I choose to live with every day.
***Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope. *(1 Peter 3:15)
Paul had hope. Peter the Pope had hope. And that’s why I have hope.
Ya’ll go ahead and work for good grades and I hope you get them. I really do! I hope you all live righteous lives, become saints and wear crowns of glory. I hope future generations sing songs about you and pray for your intercession. I really do hope that. I admit that I am weak, and that without Christ I not only can do nothing, but that I am nothing, and that If I get to heaven, it will be because of Christ, not because of anything I do.
I really don’t think about purgatory much, because for me it isn’t about getting a C- or B+, or about Hell, Heaven and Purgatory. For me it is about making Jesus Christ my very existence, here, now, today, and letting him do the rest. Everything else is up to Christ.
-Tim-
We forget that hope is one of the three theological virtues. Hope is a desire, and we whould desire heaven above all things. Paul had a great desire for heaven, and so he had great hope. We’ve got to be people of hope. God is my life. Jesus is my life. Jesus isn’t just the center of my life, but is my life and I plan to claw my way to heaven, with fear and trembling, but like Paul I have great hope, because I understand a little of what Paul understood.
Every word and every act of Christ was ordered to our redemption. Every breath Christ ever breathed was so that I could be redeemed. God loves you and I personally, so much that he became one of us and allowed us to nail him to a tree so that we could be with him.
He loved his own in the world and he loved them to the end. (John 13:1)
Jesus loved them, and loved me, me personally, to the end. To the bitter end. That’s how much God the Father loves us. That’s how much God wants us to be with him. and that is the message I choose to live with every day.
***Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope. *(1 Peter 3:15)
Paul had hope. Peter the Pope had hope. And that’s why I have hope.
Ya’ll go ahead and work for good grades and I hope you get them. I really do! I hope you all live righteous lives, become saints and wear crowns of glory. I hope future generations sing songs about you and pray for your intercession. I really do hope that. I admit that I am weak, and that without Christ I not only can do nothing, but that I am nothing, and that If I get to heaven, it will be because of Christ, not because of anything I do.
I really don’t think about purgatory much, because for me it isn’t about getting a C- or B+, or about Hell, Heaven and Purgatory. For me it is about making Jesus Christ my very existence, here, now, today, and letting him do the rest. Everything else is up to Christ.
-Tim-
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JRKH
Guest
You bring out a very important pint here…The matter of “Rules”.
When people think in terms of “rules” and they make following the rules the goal of their faith instead of seeing the rules as only the means to the greater goal of sanctification, then they are badly missing the mark.
One only needs to look at the NT to see how Jesus and the Apostles viewed this idea of “following the rules” as being sufficient.
I do not say this to denigrate the teachings of the Church or our obligations therein…but only to point out that the rules are intended as a discipline necessary to the achievement of the higher goal - which is conversion of the heart and sanctification.
Without this conversion and sanctification what we have is really “works” without “faith”…
Not a good thing…
Peace
James
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Pitcharan
Guest
Purgatory is not an invention of the CC. It was always there and even defined in Judaism. It is called Sheol in Hebrew while Hell is called Gehenna. All the confusion and doubt exist because we treat sin and vice as the same. Sin may be forgiven; but a vice can only be PURGED. We can either pardon or punish theft; how sure can we be that it would fully cure the vice of stealing and there will be no more theft committed. Sin is only the effect, caused by the vice. It is much better to let vices be purged through suffering during our earthly sojourn and avoid the terrible purgatory.
Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Punish him with the rod and save his soul from Sheol. (Pro 23:13-14)
“If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. ‘For everyone will be salted with fire’.” (Mk 9:43, 49)
*It is better to atone for sin now and to cut away vices than to keep them for purgation in the hereafter. In truth, we deceive ourselves by our ill-advised love of the flesh. What will that fire feed upon but our sins? The more we spare ourselves now and the more we satisfy the flesh, the harder will the reckoning be and the more we keep for the burning. *(Imitation of Christ, Book- I, Chapter 24)
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Richca
Guest
““I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth” (Revelation 3:14-15).
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TimothyH
Guest
Paul had great hope of salvation, confidence even.
For I am already being poured out like a libation, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have competed well; I have finished the race; I have kept the faith. From now on the crown of righteousness awaits me, which the Lord, the just judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me, but to all who have longed for his appearance. (2 Timothy 4:6-8)
-Tim-
For I am already being poured out like a libation, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have competed well; I have finished the race; I have kept the faith. From now on the crown of righteousness awaits me, which the Lord, the just judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me, but to all who have longed for his appearance. (2 Timothy 4:6-8)
-Tim-
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PJM
Guest
Friend, One does not “sweek into Purgatory”
ONLY no exceptions allowed} those who Die in the State of God’s Grace with NO; None, Zip, Zerro un-confesses; unforgiven Mortal sins will get to Purgatory.
1John.1 Verses 8 to 10 “If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
1John.5 Verses 16 to 17 "If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.
John.20 Verses 20 to 23" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained”
God Bless you,
pat /PJM
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JRKH
Guest
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Mystophilus
Guest
If their motivation for being “better Christians” is to avoid Hell, then they are operating entirely out of selfishness anyway. Do you imagine that God is likely to be impressed by that?
Negative motivations are a bad idea for precisely this reason: rather than encouraging people to do things as well as they can, such threats only encourage people to do the minimum necessary to avoid the punishment.
Have you noticed how the Bible, a rather long text, spends only a very tiny amount of its time upon the afterlife, and an enormous amount upon this present life? This present life is the one with which we should be concerned, because it is the one in which we can help or harm others.
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JRKH
Guest
Very true…Of course we need to recognize that avoidance of punishment is a prime motivator if the immature. As such very many begin their journey toward God from that point of fear. However, it must be hoped that they do not stay there and instead grow in wisdom and holiness so that Love for God drives out fear.
I fear that too many are simply running away from hell and not really running towards the narrow gate…Amen…
Peace
James
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mgoforth
Guest
God is not “impressed” by anything in the sense that you mean, but God is pleased by anything that moves us closer to Heaven. So if fear of punishment is the first step on that journey, God would be very pleased by our fear. If it’s the best we can ever truly do, and it keeps us from mortal sin God will be just as satisfied with that person as with any of the famous saints. I’m afraid your answer comes from pride. Do you remember the parable of the workers in the vineyard? Here’s the crucial part:
I strongly disagree. Have you read very many accounts of saints who were shown visions of Hell? The fear and knowledge that they could easily fall into Hell stayed with them their whole lives. Of course they developed true and deep love for God as they progressed, but fear was still a great motivator for many people that we esteem as being near the pinnacle of holiness. St Alphonsus de Liguori wrote many wise things about cultivating the fear of Hell, such as this:
Christ devoted a rather large part of His teaching ministry to descriptions of Hell and how people would end up there. While it’s true that we should be mindful of our thoughts and actions in this life, St Paul tells us:
Setting our mind on Heaven makes us aware that we might lose our reward as St Paul also frequently warns us.
I would encourage everyone to fear Hell as much as you’re able to, even if you’re also given the special graces necessary to truly love God to the fullest. To say that we no longer “need” the fear of Hell seems dangerous. A master mechanic prefers to use socket wrenches to loosen bolts because they’re the ideal tool. But he will also keep a good heavy hammer around just in case he runs across a stubborn, rusty bolt that doesn’t turn easily and needs a good smack!
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Mystophilus
Guest
Actually, what you are talking about is God being impressed, right there in the expression “God is pleased”. Pure selfishness, however, is really not very good at moving us closer to Heaven.
That is remarkably judgmental, considering how little data you have.
I do. It presents the owner giving the same reward to those who have worked long and to those who have worked only a short time. It does not refer to fear or to selfishness as a motivator.
On the other hand, the Parable of the Talents talks about precisely that: “And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed. And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.’” To which the master responds, “‘Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’” (from Mt 25:14-30 and repeated in Lk 19:11-27).
Jesus really does not represent the fear of punishment there as at all positive.
The most important point is right there in your last sentence: the development away from a fear of punishment.
Thus,
“Fear of suffering hereafter and the suffering it engenders are beneficial to all who are starting out on the spiritual way …] as soon as he has beheld the glory of God, however obscurely, his bonds will be loosed: fear, his tormentor, will leave him, and his heart’s suffering will be turned to joy. It will become a spring from which unceasing tears will flow visibly and which will fill him spiritually with peace, gentleness, and inexpressible sweetness, as well as with courage and the capacity to submit to God’s commandments freely and unreservedly. This is something impossible for those who are still beginners, for it is the characteristic of such as are in the middle of their spiritual journey.” St Symeon the New Theologian, ‘Practical and Theological Texts’ 66-7.
“if we refrain from sin merely out of fear of punishment, it is quite clear that, had punishment not awaited us, we should have done things deserving punishment, since our propensity is for sinning behaviour, not a change in heart]. But if we abstain from evil actions not through threat of punishment, but because we hate such actions, then it is from love of the Master that we practise the virtues, fearful lest we should fall away from Him.” St Theodoros the Great Ascetic, ‘A Century of Spiritual Texts’ 100.
“David the Psalmist says, ‘Fear of the Lord is pure, and endures forever’ (Ps 19:9), because he knows that of all things fear is best able to preserve divine love. Such a fear is, he realises, very different from the fear of being punished for crimes. This second type of fear is indeed ousted and destroyed by love, as John the Evangelist makes clear when he writes, ‘Love casts out fear’ (1 Jn 4:18). But the fear David is talking about is a natural expression of the law of true tenderness, and it is through this fear that the saints always keep intact the rule and practice of love, both for God and for each other.” St Maximos the Confessor, ‘On the Lord’s Prayer’
See also Nikitas Stithatos, ‘On the Practice of the Virtues’ 56; St Diadochos of Photiki, ‘On Spiritual Knowledge’ 16-17; St Maximos the Confessor, ‘First Century on Love’ 80-82, ‘First Century on Various Texts’ 69, et pl al.
What they all point out consistently is what Plato identified regarding adherence to the Law, what Kant identified regarding adherence to religion, and what modern psychology has identified regarding motivation generally: negative motivations are far less effective in producing genuine changes in people than positive ones are.
Actually, my search engine counts only 15 references to 'Αιδης and Γεεννα combined across all four Gospels.
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mgoforth
Guest
Impressed and pleased are different, at least in the way I use those terms. Beings of lower natures can be impressed by other beings of equal or higher natures. God is above all others so He is pleased in the way a father is pleased with the well-meaning, but awkward efforts of a small child. If God is impressed with anyone it would be the Virgin Mary…but for you or I to claim that we “impress” God is not understanding the infinite divide between His nature and ours.
I’m sorry if I offended you.
That’s one reading of it. Another reading would be that those who worked long represent saints with extraordinary virtue, and those who worked a short time represent saints who just barely made it to Heaven…probably with a fair amount of time in Purgatory. In the first class would be those who loved God perfectly, not out of fear of punishment. I agree with you that fear of punishment is a base motive and comes from selfishness. That would be the “short-timers”…those whose work for God was relatively minor in that they followed the rules but only out of fear. Fear generally won’t motivate us to perform abundant works of charity, but it can produce some.
There are multiple interpretations of these parables that fit within Catholic doctrine.
You’ve just said that this parable teaches that we can be sent to Hell if we’re afraid of going to Hell…I’m sorry but that can’t be true. Even if the best motivation we could ever manage was fear of Hell, and it kept us out of mortal sin, we would go to Heaven. I’m sure you wouldn’t disagree with that, would you? I’m afraid of Hell, not because I think I’m going there but because it’s a possibility (however slim) for everyone. I’m trying to learn to love God as perfectly and purely as possible, as I’m sure you are too…but we’re not safe until death. We could always have a moment of weakness and commit a mortal sin. It will always be in our fallen nature to do that in this life. If I had to use the fear of Hell to keep me from a really tempting mortal sin, I’d do it in a heartbeat.
Also consider that there are most likely souls in Heaven right now who got there almost solely from the fear of Hell. Those souls are of infinite value to God. And therefore, whatever motive helped them get to Heaven would be a very good thing - certainly nothing to look down on. Yes, it’s a beginner’s motive and we hope that people will aspire to more and greater love. But God loves beginners just as much as anyone else. Aren’t we told to take special care of the “little ones” among us?
I agree with you on all this. It’s better to develop genuine love for God.
It depends on the person in question. For a beginner, true love of God isn’t usually possible, without extraordinary graces. So for that person, negative reinforcement is probably essential for a period of time…and who knows how long we’ll have to grow in faith before we die? For more advanced souls, positive motivation is of course the preferred route - BUT lets all remember that those souls are only advanced because of God’s grace in offering them the initial gift of faith as well as any subsequent graces they asked for to grow in holiness. Goes back to the parable of the workers. The first workers thought they deserved more because of their efforts. The owner says both groups of workers are paid the same because of His generosity.
That’s not a significant amount?
How many times did Jesus speak about forgiving others? Or how many times did He speak about the true meaning of the Eucharist? I would say those topics are obviously better motivators for Christians who are already on the road to Heaven, but the motivation not to go to Hell might be the most important for getting people started in the first place. Hence it’s mentioned 15 times, which does seem like a lot to me.
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Mystophilus
Guest
Er, no, I haven’t said that. I said that the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard “does not refer to fear or to selfishness as a motivator. On the other hand, the Parable of the Talents talks about precisely that”, because it does explicitly identify fear as a motivator (Mt 25:25) , and the one who acts on that basis is condemned for his actions (Mt 25:30).
I am afraid that your fear of “a moment of weakness” sounds far more like a claim that someone who is afraid of Hell can still get there.
Unless I am misunderstanding a fairly major element of Catholic theology, we would go to Purgatory. What happened there would subsequently get us to Heaven.
I’m not afraid of Hell, in part because I do not consider the possibility to be nearly as great as you suggest. According to your catechism, “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.” Full knowledge and deliberate consent on a grave matter require more than just “a moment of weakness”.
I am not afraid of Hell mostly because I have faith in God, not to “look after me”, but to be Good. Being Good, God is not going to set people up to fail, and is not going to go to all of the effort of the Incarnation only to let it go to waste because someone is led astray by their hormone balance, or someone holds the wrong view of some abstruse element of metaphysical philosophy which cannot be proven by any means available to us.
And so you think that we should focus on the essential minimum, rather than on the optimum?
The same search engine counts 46 uses of “forgive” in its various inflections, three times as many; “love” gets 75, by the way. This is something which non-Christians in particular frequently misunderstand about Scripture: the major focus is on this life, not the next.That’s not a significant amount?
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Bob_Crowley
Guest
I think it’s more to do with our easy life style, and democratic society. When Christ was walking around at the time of the Roman Empire, judgement meant something. If you didn’t toe the line, punishments were harsh.
But these days, punishments are soft in comparison, and society has become very liberal. As a consequence we think God has changed as well. Instead of a king who is quite prepared to torture and executes His opponents, we’ve now got a democrat who is going to take a soft line, and there’s not much to worry about.
But the reality is that God doesn’t change.
Malachi 3:6 NIV
Judgement still waits for all of us, and it won’t be like a human court. There will be no jury, no defending or prosecuting lawyers (they’ll probably be in hell anyway), not one hidden fact, and no grounds for appeal.
As CS Lewis put it, when the sentence is passed, we will know to the core of our being that there is no hope it will be wrong.
I think today’s lack of concern about God’s judgment is due more to social change than the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory, or cheap grace on the Protestant side. We have no experience of an authoritarian King.
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mgoforth
Guest
My friend, you just said it again…
Besides, the primary motivator for the servant in the parable was sloth, not fear. I know the servant said it was fear, but the Master (who truly knows men’s hearts) said, “You wicked, lazy slave…”And besides that, you’re twisting the message of this parable pretty severely. The wicked servant was condemned because he produced nothing of value through his laziness. I’m talking about someone who wants to produce good works, but is just starting down that road and relies on fear of Hell to motivate him. Completely different.
Can still get where, Hell or Heaven? We can all end up in either destination at any moment in our lives through a single mortal sin. That is Catholic teaching.
I’m speaking of the ultimate destination. The Catholic Church lists four “Last Things” that we must believe in: Death, Judgment, Heaven or Hell. Purgatory, while not desirable, is considered getting to Heaven because everyone in Purgatory will eventually be admitted to Heaven.
So say you. Many saints and Doctors of the Church say otherwise and were extremely cautious up to the moment of their death to avoid just such a moment of weakness. I’m going to listen to them.
I trust in God to be good…I don’t trust in myself to always be good. “The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak”. Trusting God doesn’t preclude believing that we might do something stupid just before we die. “Be watchful, for you know not at what hour the Master will come.”
I never said anything of the sort, my friend. For some people, the essential minimum is all they will likely have time in this life to acheive, and for them it will be enough. Everyone should strive after absolute perfection. “Be perfect, as your Father in Heaven is perfect.”
I think the major focus is on both. There are four different ways we can interpret Scripture. Please check out this article: mark-shea.com/scrip6.html
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mgoforth
Guest
I wanted to share with you one of today’s readings from the Liturgy of the Hours. It is a letter from St Ignatius of Antioch to his supporters. St Ignatius had been condemned to die in the Colosseum while he was serving as Bishop of Syria in Antioch, and he wrote this letter to the Church in Rome while he was being transported there for execution. In it Ignatius asks them not to attempt to free him from captivity because he wants to die as a martyr. He is afraid that if someone gave him the chance, he might chicken-out and try to escape death.
“The prince of this world is determined to lay hold of me and to undermine my will which is intent on God. Let none of you here help him; instead show yourselves on my side, which is also God’s side. Do not talk about Jesus Christ as long as you love this world. Do not harbour envious thoughts. And supposing I should see you, if then I should beg you to intervene on my behalf, do not believe what I say. Believe instead what I am now writing to you. For though I am alive as I write to you, still my real desire is to die. My love of this life has been crucified, and there is no yearning in me for any earthly thing.”
He knew quite well that moments of weakness could strike even someone who had firmly desired in advance to do the right thing. Being overly confident in our own resolutions or strength of will is dangerous. He had confidence in God but none in himself, so he took every precaution to avoid anything that might cause him to commit the mortal sin of refusing martyrdom for Christ.
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Mystophilus
Guest
No, I didn’t. Please stop reading what you think I mean, and read what I am actually saying. When the parable says that he was motivated by fear, it means that he was motivated by fear; when the master condemns him for this, it means that he was condemned for this. To get from there to “we can be sent to Hell if we’re afraid of going to Hell” requires a leap; to get from my referring to it to “You’ve just said” requires another leap. Please read the actual words.My friend, you just said it again…
Verse 25 says he was afraid. You can disagree with the text if you wish, but do not expect me to follow you.
“the one who acts on that basis is condemned for his actions (Mt 25:30)” as stated previously.
Sorry, but there really does not seem any point in pursuing a conversation with someone uninterested in listening. Good day to you.
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mgoforth
Guest
Again, I’m sorry if I offended you. Let me ask you, what does it mean in the parable when the Master condemns the servant? Does it not mean he goes to Hell? I feel like I’m reading the words. Not trying to make you angry.
Verse 25 says, “And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.” Those are the words of the servant. What did the Master accuse him of though? Being wicked and lazy, not afraid.
Can I ask which translation you’re using? I don’t see that phrase in verse 30. But either way the “basis” would be laziness in this parable. Haydock’s Catholic Bible Commentary has this to say:
This seems to have been an adage levelled at avaricious men, who are never pleased but with what increases their hoards. Under this symbol is also depicted the excuse of many, who accuse God of being the cause of their idleness, both here and in the judgment to come; as that God is too severe and unbending, whose service is extremely hard, and who adopts, rejects, and reprobates whom he pleases; who deals out heavier burdens than the weak nature of man is made to support; who denies the grace of obedience, and thus wishes to reap where he has not sown.
I’m sorry you feel that way. I think I’ve tried to respond to each of your comments and provided plenty of support for my interpretation. Do you always leave when others have different opinions?
- Status