Becoming a god

[Jon_S_1]

As a former Mormon, I can tell you that Judas Thaddeus, Jon S and Randy Carson are spot on. Glad I didn’t have to pull out the Journal of Discourses! The Book of Mormon is rather boring and tame. There are no unique Mormon doctrines in the book. The unique Mormon doctrines are in the Doctrine & Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price, both of which are considered scripture and part of the Mormon canon. For some really interesting reading, you can also try the Journal of Discourses.

The Mormons very much teach that faithful Mormons can become gods. It is taught in the ‘Gospel Principles’ Sunday School manual which is used to teach new converts during their first year in the church. Mormons are trying to appear as mainstream Christians but their beliefs are neither mainstream nor Christian. Even so, they still have not dumped that doctrine. When I was Mormon, I did consider myself to be Christian but never got worked up about real Christians saying that Mormons are not. Now that I am converting to and learning about real Christianity, I can definitely say that Mormons are not Christians. Many of them are fine people, but they are not Christians.

Welcome Home!!!

 

[Brandon_Cal]

Can a knowledgeable Catholic explain to me how the quotations of the Catechism in the original post differ in substance to the LDS belief of deification? I’m genuinely curious since I know that the Catholic Church emphatically teaches that we creatures are of an entirely different nature/substance than the divine. The quote of the CCC seems to imply a very literal interpretation of “men becoming God”, and so I think I must be missing something.

To meltzerboy: It is still a doctrine of the LDS Church that those who keep their covenants with God can be “exalted” to godhood. In Mormonism we refer to this by an assortment of names: exaltation, eternal progression, (to a lesser extent) deification, etc.

 

[debbie_h]

No Oral Tradition, it is ALL WRITTEN:The Doctrine & Covenants states:

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, …Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; …and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, …and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.
22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me. ([Doctrine and Covenants (Doctrine and Covenants Section 132) 132:19-22)
Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.1, p.97 - p.98: ALL EXALTED MEN BECOME GODS. To believe that Adam is a god should not be strange to any person who accepts the Bible. When Jesus was accused of blasphemy because he claimed to be the Son of God, he answered the Jews: “Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?”
Joseph Smith taught a plurality of gods, and that man by obeying the commandments of God and keeping the whole law will eventually reach the power and exaltation by which he also will become a god.
Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.2: GODHOOD
Logically and naturally, the ultimate desire of a loving Supreme Being is to help his children enjoy all that he enjoys. For Latter-day Saints, the term “godhood” denotes the attainment of such a state—one of having all divine attributes and doing as God does and being as God is. Such a state is to be enjoyed by all exalted, embodied, intelligent beings (see Deification; Eternal Progression; Exaltation; God; Perfection). The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that all resurrected and perfected mortals become gods (cf. Gen. 3:22; Matt. 5:48). They will dwell again with God the Father, and live and act like him in endless worlds of happiness, power, love, glory, and knowledge; above all, they will have the power of procreating endless lives. Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus Christ attained godhood (see Christology) and that he marked the path and led the way for others likewise to become exalted divine beings by following him (cf. John 14:3).
Brigham Young (kind of a lunatic) said:f you have in your hearts to say…”we will not, therefore, be polygamists lest we should fail in obtaining some earthly honor, character and office, etc,"-the man that has that in his heart, and will continue to persist in pursuing that policy, will come short of dwelling in the presence of the Father and the Son, in celestial glory. The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. **
Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son**; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessing offered unto them, and they refused to accept them. The Lord gave a revelation through Joseph Smith, His servant; and we have believed and practiced it.

• [Journal of Discourses (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Journal_of_Discourses/Volume_11/Delegate_Hooper—Beneficial_Effects_of_Polygamy,_etc.) 11:269 (Aug. 19, 1866)

So yeah, no oral tradition, was and IS Official Church Doctrine of the LDS, and it isn’t
even a little thing in Mormonism, the Becoming God’s Doctrine is the central focus of
the LDS people.

 

[Novocastrian]

Is it true that Roman Catholics are working towards becoming a god, like the Mormons do?

CCC 460, The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

We become sons of God not by nature (as was Christ) but by adoption and grace. Baptism makes one a son of God as Father and a son of Holy Church as mother.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Can a knowledgeable Catholic explain to me how the quotations of the Catechism in the original post differ in substance to the LDS belief of deification? I’m genuinely curious since I know that the Catholic Church emphatically teaches that we creatures are of an entirely different nature/substance than the divine. The quote of the CCC seems to imply a very literal interpretation of “men becoming God”, and so I think I must be missing something.

To meltzerboy: It is still a doctrine of the LDS Church that those who keep their covenants with God can be “exalted” to godhood. In Mormonism we refer to this by an assortment of names: exaltation, eternal progression, (to a lesser extent) deification, etc.

I am NOT a very knowledgeable Catholic, but CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING! Literal interpretation is really not the way to go with that part from the Catechism, anyone who INSISTS upon literal interpretation and INSIST that the Catholic Church believes that men can become gods is a fool. The meaning behind that is that we will enter into union with God and, as someone told me, “God’s greatest wish is for us to become just like him,” so think more of an Adamic state, to be in the perfect image of God after his own likeness as in the beginning.

There is the difference, because Mormons believe that they can BECOME DEITIES ruling over their own planets (or universe depending on who you talk to), having super powers and so forth. CATHOLICS DO NOT BELIEVE THAT.

 

[superwimp]

Mormonism appears to be further removed from Christianity than I thought.

Hello Meltzerboy,
There are many branches of Mormonism. The LDS church is by far the largest, however, they aren't the only branch of Mormonism. The branch that I am a member of only believes in the BOM and book of Commandments. They don't believe in all the stuff described here.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Hello Meltzerboy,

 There are many branches of Mormonism.  The LDS church is by far the largest, however, they aren't the only branch of Mormonism.  The branch that I am a member of only believes in the BOM and book of Commandments.  They don't believe in all the stuff described here.

Ah yes, I have a copy of the Book of Commandments in the Second Edition
of “Joseph Smith Begins His Work”, a reproduction of the original text.

 

[steido01]

Meltzer-

It is really important for non-Mormons (and Mormons, too, come to think of it) to understand that Mormons are NOT Christians despite the name of their organization and other associations with Jesus. Their baptisms are not valid Christian baptisms.

Second, it is their belief that “As man is, so God once was. As God is, so man can become.”

A Mormon with Temple Recommends who dies in good standing with the Mormon Church may become God of his own planet. His wife is sealed to him, and her eternal state depends largely (if not entirely) upon his. Together, they will have intercourse for eternity producing spiritual babies that need bodies to inhabit on their planets. This is why Mormons have large families…the God of this planet “needs” bodies for all the spiritual babies waiting to be born.

There may be posts from Mormons protesting and denying what I have just written, but I own a LOT of books on Mormonism, and I think my brief explanation is accurate. However, not all Mormons have been told the full story of what their Church really believes in the inner circle.

THIS.

Randy’s understanding is true across all of orthodox Christianity; I’m not a Roman Catholic, and I agree 100%. All Christians are united to the One, Holy, catholic and Apostolic Church through Trinitarian Baptism (regardless of the various theological differences that may keep Christians from full fellowship with each other).

Furthermore, any man who thinks he can become a god is certainly no Christian. There is one God.

 

[Stephen168]

Can a knowledgeable Catholic explain to me how the quotations of the Catechism in the original post differ in substance to the LDS belief of deification? I’m genuinely curious since I know that the Catholic Church emphatically teaches that we creatures are of an entirely different nature/substance than the divine. The quote of the CCC seems to imply a very literal interpretation of “men becoming God”, and so I think I must be missing something.

From an earlier discussion I had with a Mormon:

God is uncreated. He created man (Adam and Eve) as sinless beings who had eternal life and able to see God; they were gods. They sinned against God and brought death and sin upon mankind. God humbled himself and became man. Christ took away the sins of the world and over came death. This gives mankind the opportunity to become gods just like Adam and Eve were gods; with eternal life we can see our creator, God.

The limit to deification (becoming gods) is God. God is uncreated and everything else is created. Part of the divine nature is eternal life. We will share/participate in God’s nature but we will never be God.

I believe this is a brief general explanation of divination as taught by the early church fathers.

 

[SteveVH]

Can a knowledgeable Catholic explain to me how the quotations of the Catechism in the original post differ in substance to the LDS belief of deification? I’m genuinely curious since I know that the Catholic Church emphatically teaches that we creatures are of an entirely different nature/substance than the divine. The quote of the CCC seems to imply a very literal interpretation of “men becoming God”, and so I think I must be missing something.

To meltzerboy: It is still a doctrine of the LDS Church that those who keep their covenants with God can be “exalted” to godhood. In Mormonism we refer to this by an assortment of names: exaltation, eternal progression, (to a lesser extent) deification, etc.

It is the difference between theosis (Christian) and exaltation (Mormon).

The Mormon doctrine of Exaltation claims that man possesses the divine nature independent of it being caused by God. In other words, that man is a self existent being. The Mormon position does hold that God is necessary to perfect man’s divinity, but the source of this divinity is not God, but man himself. They believe that we co-existed with God from eternity, therefore we are not his creatures, but existed independently of him. God is only a man who has progressed further than us. It is like a train. The first car on the train will reach its destination sooner than the caboose, but the caboose will eventually arrive at the same destination, but always behind the first car. The Mormon position goes even further to imagine that we will be given our own worlds over which we will rule, populated by our own spirit children who will in turn worship us as we now worship our God.

Theosis, on the other hand, teaches us that while man lacks divinity by nature, he was, indeed, created for a supernatural end. Christ became man in order to fill us with the divine nature which we otherwise lack. In other words, the divine nature is created in man by the unique and uncaused God (the "God of gods). Humans will attain a real divine nature, by the power of the one God. We will never, however, be this one God but will share in his life as adopted sons and daughters. We will spend eternity in worship of the one, true God, rather than creating worlds in which we ourselves are worshipped.

 

[Robert_Joseph60]

No, many Catholic Church haters will use that idea out of context to support
the idea that the Catholic Church is wrong, AND even Mormons will use that
concept OUT OF CONTEXT to prove how their doctrines are not so farfetched.

The saved ARE to be “partakers of the divine nature”, but that doesn’t mean the saved be-
come gods. Anyone who says otherwise profess that Peter believed in humans becoming
gods, as he said: “Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great pro-
mises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, after escaping
from the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire.” (2 Peter 1:4)

I’m not SO smart, someone (not anti-Catholic) can explain more and better than I can.

Hello Judas, I have not taken it out of contex, the CCC 460 out of contex, it very clearly says man can become a god.

CCC 460, The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

 

[LivingWaters7]

Can a knowledgeable Catholic explain to me how the quotations of the Catechism in the original post differ in substance to the LDS belief of deification? I’m genuinely curious since I know that the Catholic Church emphatically teaches that we creatures are of an entirely different nature/substance than the divine. The quote of the CCC seems to imply a very literal interpretation of “men becoming God”, and so I think I must be missing something.

I think it’s important to realize (as you seem to have) that while both the Catholic and LDS faiths speak of “becoming God/gods” (something that many Catholics in the West, as opposed to the East, are not aware of), and the Early Church Fathers speak extensively on deification, and the terminology and phraseology might be very similar if not the same, there are fundamental differences between the two.

Catholics, and other traditional Christians, believe that there is a chasm between man and God. This could be seen as a “species” difference: God is God, man is man, and we are not of the same nature. Man, body and soul/spirit, is created by God.

In contrast, LDS believe in two different beliefs: all men and women are spirit children of the Father, begotten by Him and Heavenly Mother in the pre-mortal existence. Therefore, we are of the same species or of the same nature as God. since we are his literal spirit children. Secondly, there is an eternal core to all humans, the “intelligence”, that has always existed, was never created. So, while God did beget us as His spiritual offspring, He was essentially putting clothes on a core that always existed.

So, traditional Christians believe that God and man are of two different natures, and that through Jesus Christ, we can partake of the divine nature, a nature that we do not already possess, and become by grace what God is by nature (as the ECFs teach). Mormons believe that we are of the same nature or species as God, and therefore already possess a divine nature, and through Christ, we progress to Godhood. We progress to the same life that the Father lives. So, the subordination between the Father and us in traditional Christianity is one of nature, while in the LDS faith, it’s one of progression.

The LDS view also allows for various other unique teachings and ideas, such as:

-the Father was once a man that progressed to Godhood, and we therefore follow His own example. Traditional Christians believe that God has always been God, and did not have to learn or progress to Godhood.

-because exaltation involves living the same type of life that the Father does, that includes: eternal marriage to your spouse, perhaps having your own worlds (this has been mentioned in official manuals), and having “eternal increase”, spirit children, just like the Father and Heavenly Mother, and that they would have the same relationship to us as we do to the Father. None of these would be entertained in the traditional view. Traditional Christianity seems to be less…elaborate in discussing what exactly deification entails, save for living in the eternal presence of God, becoming by grace what He is by nature, partaking of the divine nature, etc.

 

[Robert_Joseph60]

We become sons of God not by nature (as was Christ) but by adoption and grace. Baptism makes one a son of God as Father and a son of Holy Church as mother.

Hello Novacastrian, you’re CCC 460 very clearly says man can become a god, do you reject you’re CCC

CCC 460, The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

 

[Randy_Carson]

Hello Judas, I have not taken it out of contex, the CCC 460 out of contex, it very clearly says man can become a god.

CCC 460, The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

SteveVH said it nicely:

“We will spend eternity in worship of the one, true God, rather than creating worlds in which we ourselves are worshipped.”

 

[SteveVH]

Hello Judas, I have not taken it out of contex, the CCC 460 out of contex, it very clearly says man can become a god.

CCC 460, The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

The operative words are “to make us sharers in his divinity”.

 

[pablope]

Hello Novacastrian, you’re CCC 460 very clearly says man can become a god, do you reject you’re CCC

CCC 460, The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

As has been explained…not in the way you understand it or the way you want others to understand or read it the way you do.

I would suggest LivingWaters post 31 explaining the Mormon understanding and the Christian understanding.

 

[Robert_Joseph60]

The operative words are "to make us sharers in his divinity".

Hello, but you’re CCC 460 says “make men gods”

CCC 460, The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

 

[pablope]

Hello, but you’re CCC 460 says “make men gods”

CCC 460, The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

Again…not in the way you understand it or want to imply what it says.

 

[Marie5890]

Hello Novacastrian, you’re CCC 460 very clearly says man can become a god, do you reject you’re CCC

CCC 460, The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

Robert,

LivingWater’s post #31 will break down the differences that you are struggling to grasp to understand.

 

[Marie5890]

Hello, but you’re CCC 460 says “make men gods”

CCC 460, The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

Sounds like you struggle to understand what the Christian view of the nature of God is about?

To the Christian, this is not rocket science. But it sounds like you think it is since you dont seem to understand the differences?