Becoming Gods....

[bryce33]

Latter-day Saints have never said that they will become equal to God. Our Eternal Father, God of all things, has been and always will be our God. This is LDS doctrine that a lot of people outside of the faith often misunderstand, that being our relationship with God the Eternal Father, His Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost.

 

[bryce33]

I’d be happy to answer any questions you might have if you feel it would help.

 

[ARTMMARTIN]

SURPRISE
Catechism of the Catholic Church
460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”:“For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.”
END QUOTE

This statement may confuse some good people as well as many others. It sounds a lot like New Age junk but it is not.

We become one in Christ through the Sacraments of Baptism and Holy Eucharist. Through Baptism we become a new creation born from above in Christ Jesus Who is the ONLY ONE born from above. So, we become everything that Jesus is including God the Son, Son of God and Son of Mary. Thus, we become a child of God in, with and through Jesus Who is God.

Through the Holy Eucharist, the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus become ours and we become one in Him living the Divine Life that He taught us to live it.

Only God the Son came down from heaven and only God the Son can go back up to heaven. Thus, we must be one in, with and through Jesus to go to heaven.

There is also much Scripture to support what is said here.

 

[bryce33]

I thought I’d add just one more comment to help explain what Latter-day Saints actually believe regarding this thread. If it helps, I’ll use a few verses of scripture from the New Testament. It’s difficult sometimes to try and support one’s beliefs through scripture because of the different interpretations of it, but just as I try to understand the Catholic faith maybe this will help explain to someone who, at the very least, is trying to understand the LDS faith. As to why we believe the way we do in context of this thread, though we may have doctrinal differences perhaps this will show that we’re not so different regarding this, and other facets of what we believe in. So much of what I read in these forums support my belief and faith in Christ and I thank all of you for it. I find that, at least from my point of view, we’re not so different after all.

I should point out first that the LDS faith firmly and fervently believes the bible, Old and New Testament, to be the word of God. Regarding this thread there is a scripture in Romans that I believe does a good job in describing what members of the LDS church believe when others talk about us “Becoming gods”. In Romans (KJV) chapter 8, verse 16-17, Paul says, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” Now I know that other religions can interpret this to mean different things, but Latter-day Saints feel that we are all spirit children of our Heavenly Father and that this scripture speaks of man’s potential to become like Heavenly Father. Again, we look to other scriptures in the bible such as Psalms chapter 82, verse 6, which says, “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you children of the most High,” and again in Matthew chapter 5, verse 48 which says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Obviously we can’t obtain perfection in this life, as there was, is, and ever will be only one perfect, sinless man, Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God, and our Lord and Saviour (and yes, God Himself in context of our belief in the Godhead as He is a member of the Godhead), but nonetheless He has commanded us to be perfect, again alluding to the Latter-day Saint belief that that we as children of God have the potential to become like Him. (See also, Acts 17:29 we are the offspring of God.; Galatians 4:7 if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.;1 John, 3:2 when he shall appear, we shall be like him.)

These scriptures perfectly describe what the LDS church believes through the words of ancient prophets and apostles. Here’s the point that I want to clarify, the common misconception is that people believe that the LDS faith teaches that we become a god equal to that of the Lord God Almighty, and that is simply not true. We obviously could never be equal in any way, shape or form, to the Most High God whom we worship and love forever and ever. He is and forever will be our God. It’s taught in the church, and perhaps this may or may not make more sense to you, who knows, but it is taught that we can become queens and priests unto the most High God, and that just as the scriptures above say, it is taught that we can become heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, or in other words fulfill our potential as His offspring to become like Him, perfect even as He is perfect, which Christ, while He was on the Earth, commanded us to do. As we believe that we are literally the spirit children of God, this means that we are more than merely a creation, rather we were formed and created in His image and were bestowed with potential to be His heirs if, as it says in Romans, we suffer with Christ, we keep His commandments, and we do all that we can do to live a Christ-like life. There is a scripture in our canon that says explains to us that God’s purpose is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man, and what I’ve described more or less falls in line with this.

Hopefully you realize that I am merely trying to help people more correctly understand what members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe in because we are so misunderstood in so many ways that it’s almost laughable. And I definitely know that you are likely to believe differently and also completely disagree with everything I’ve written, which totally makes sense and is totally cool, and such is life. I celebrate all our differences and enjoy learning all that I can from the world around me. Of course, we’re all different, and I’m betting that’s exactly how God wanted it or it wouldn’t be so, and that’s also what makes us who we are as members of our human family. I just want to say that I like reading the forums here because it helps me understand not only the Catholic faith, which I am totally gaining a greater understanding and appreciation for, but it also helps me understand my own faith in Jesus Christ and it strengthens my faith to know that so many of you out there in the world believe in God and struggle with the same things that I struggle with on a day to day basis. Anyways, I’ve definitely said enough, God bless you all and thanks for letting me share this.

 

[glarryb]

I live in Utah, and almost everyone I know is LDS. One of the biggest differences we can’t agree on the nature of God. They always say something along the lines of “what kind, loving God wouldn’t want His children to become like Him? What then is the purpose of life?” And no matter what I say about living for God, in His grace, etc., they always come back with something like “why would God have children for the sole purpose of worshiping him? That sounds selfish to me.” I can never put words to my perception of Him. The funny part of it is that I always think to myself, “man, they’re missing out on the entire idea of God by making Him and heaven so… human,” and they tell me “Catholic heaven is boring and you’re selling yourself short to refuse to believe that you are divine.”

Help?

460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: [78] “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” [79] “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” [80] “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.” 81

 

[glarryb]

460 The Word became flesh to make us “partakers of the divine nature”: [78] “For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God.” [79] “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God.” [80] “The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.” 81

 

[JonathonofOhio]

I don’t know what exactly the LDS church believes on this subject, but it sounds to me that they don’t worship anyone other than God. What I do know is that the Church has historically taught that the saints are gods (not in the sense that they are worshiped or equal to God).

[BIBLEDRB]Psalm 81:6[/BIBLEDRB]

But of what gods [does he speak]? [Of those] to whom He says, “I have said, You are gods, and all sons of the Most High.” To those, no doubt, who have received the grace of the “adoption, by which we cry, Abba Father.” Romans 8:15

- St. Irenaeus, “Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 6)” (newadvent.org/fathers/0103306.htm)

To the saints honour must be paid as friends of Christ, as sons and heirs of God: in the words of John the theologian and evangelist, As many as received Him, to them gave He power to became sons of God. John 1:12 So that they are no longer servants, but sons: and if sons, also heirs, heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ : and the Lord in the holy Gospels says to His apostles, You are My friends John 15:14 . Henceforth I call you not servants, for the servant knows not what his lord does. And further, if the Creator and Lord of all things is called also King of Kings and Lord of Lords Revelation 19:16 and God of Gods, surely also the saints are gods and lords and kings. For of these God is and is called God and Lord and King. For I am the God of Abraham, He said to Moses, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. Exodus 3:6 And God made Moses a god to Pharaoh. Now I mean gods and kings and lords not in nature, but as rulers and masters of their passions, and as preserving a truthful likeness to the divine image according to which they were made (for the image of a king is also called king), and as being united to God of their own free-will and receiving Him as an indweller and becoming by grace through participation with Him what He is Himself by nature. Surely, then, the worshippers and friends and sons of God are to be held in honour? For the honour shown to the most thoughtful of fellow-servants is a proof of good feeling towards the common Master.

**- St. John Damascene, “Exposition of the Faith” (newadvent.org/fathers/33044.htm) Chapter 15
**

[BIBLEDRB]psalm 135:2[/BIBLEDRB]

Then follows, “Give thanks to the God of gods, for His mercy endures for ever” Psalm 135:2. “Give thanks to the Lord of lords, for His mercy endures for ever” Psalm 135:3. We may well enquire, Who are these gods and lords, of whom He who is the true God is God and Lord? And we find written in another Psalm, that even men are called gods. The Lord even takes note of this testimony in the Gospel, saying, “Is it not written in your Law, I have said, You are gods?” John 10:34…

- St. Augustine of Hippo - from “Exposition of the Psalms” (newadvent.org/fathers/1801.htm)

Now, I get what the Church teaches, and I see no problem with it. I don’t know what the difference is with what the LDS teaches, but it was the Catholic Church that taught first that the Saints are gods. So whatever else is being taught by the LDS concerning this subject was simply added to whatever was already taught previously by the Catholic Church.

 

[FCEGM]

I don’t know what exactly the LDS church believes on this subject, but it sounds to me that they don’t worship anyone other than God. What I do know is that the Church has historically taught that the saints are gods (not in the sense that they are worshiped or equal to God).

[BIBLEDRB]Psalm 81:6[/BIBLEDRB]

- St. Irenaeus, “Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 6)” (newadvent.org/fathers/0103306.htm)

- St. John Damascene, “Exposition of the Faith” (newadvent.org/fathers/33044.htm) Chapter 15

[BIBLEDRB]psalm 135:2[/BIBLEDRB]

- St. Augustine of Hippo - from “Exposition of the Psalms” (newadvent.org/fathers/1801.htm)

Now, I get what the Church teaches, and I see no problem with it. I don’t know what the difference is with what the LDS teaches, but it was the Catholic Church that taught first that the Saints are gods. So whatever else is being taught by the LDS concerning this subject was simply added to whatever was already taught previously by the Catholic Church.

Jonathan, please read the article at the link I recommended to Chelsea in post #19 - that will demonstrate the vast difference in beliefs beyond the similar words employed by the Mormons.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

Oh thanks…I didn’t click the link when I was running through the post, and went and forgot to go back to it when I was done reading.

Looks like a good article…I’m going to read it right now

Here is the link again so anyone missing your post can just click it here instead of going back to your post:
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9712fea2.asp

EDIT: Okay, so that was informative. I guess their beliefs only SOUND, at first, to be similar to Catholic beliefs, but then go off in an entirely different direction! Wow, I had no idea they actually believe some of those things.

 

[FCEGM]

Oh thanks…I didn’t click the link when I was running through the post, and went and forgot to go back to it when I was done reading.

Looks like a good article…I’m going to read it right now

Here is the link again so anyone missing your post can just click it here instead of going back to your post:
catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9712fea2.asp

EDIT: Okay, so that was informative. I guess their beliefs only SOUND, at first, to be similar to Catholic beliefs, but then go off in an entirely different direction! Wow, I had no idea they actually believe some of those things.

Right; they use many of the same words, but with entirely different meanings.

 

[stokemeister]

Well, the first thing that they have to realize, is that we are God’s creation. That instantly puts us lower than God. The next level, though, is that God does want us to share in divine nature, but rather than becoming actual Gods ourselves, we would become partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4), where we live in a relationship with God. That’s the difference. To my mind, it makes them sound like they want to be equal to God. And last time I checked, when the Scriptures talked about someone trying to be like God, it didn’t turn out so well (Genesis 3:5-24). What I would tell them, is that God created us because he wants us to love him, as he loves us. He wants to bring us into his Family.

They make it sound like worship is merely saying a bunch of good things about God every Sunday. Rather, explain to them how worship is actually our way of communicating with God, of entering into a relationship with the one who made us. Most importantly, explain to them how in the LDS faith, not everyone becomes a God. It’s only for those who reach Exaltation. Ultimately, God loves us and wants us to join into a relationship of love with him, not to make us into our own Gods.

As a Mormon I think this response describing Catholic beliefs sounds closer to my belief than the other attempts to describe Mormon beliefs. We are God’s creation but Genesis is clearly teaching that there is something different regarding our creation compared to other components of the creation, so yes, lower, how low? “a little lower than the angels,” and in this world clearly ‘fallen’ beings, but still with the clear injunction to become one with and like Christ. Yes, he wants us to become partakers of the Divine Nature and live in a covenant relationship with Him. It is not my belief at all that I will become equal with God, my belief is that I can become one with God through the grace of Christ. It is also my belief that God wants us to be like him in characteristics. Yes, absolutely He wants us to love him as he loves us and it is His Family. Worship is absolutely not about saying a bunch of good things about God every Sunday. The highest worship is offering our entire selves to Him. We offer ourselves to him through our ongoing choices to stay in the covenant and keep His commandments.

Mormons do take it further but not as far as some people claim we take it, nor as some Mormons poorly articulate it. We take it further in our understanding of the nature of God which is fundamentally different than Catholicism but defendable as congruent with first century Christianity. That understanding has roots in a strong belief in the literal resurrection of Jesus and Jesus being the ultimate revelation of the nature of God. (Obviously also rooted in additional scripture and revelation which the Mormons believe is authoritative). God therefore has a glorified body but obviously different than our bodies, Paul described the difference in terms of degrees of light or glory analogous to the differences between the sun, moon, and stars, compared to our current bodies as the dust. Mormon theology does not bring God down to a human level but instead it sees in humans divine potential. Mormonism also sees family and creation as fundamental to the nature of God, which is the base of all the Abrahamic faiths. Gods’ glory is endless creation and creation that is glorious, a fullness of light and intelligence, with his highest creation being the expanding glory of his Family. We don’t know the mechanics anymore than Catholics know the mechanics of the Virgin birth or transubstantiation. We have the same language in the scriptures: Father, children of God, ‘be ye therefore perfect’, partakers of the divine nature, etc. We see in those words description as well as metaphor. And that’s it, sure there are interesting speculations but that is not substantiated in Mormon doctrine or practice anymore than is Jesus’ statement about he did nothing except what he saw the Father do.

I personally find it to be a beautiful doctrine, that there is something within everyone that is divine and that God’s desire is truly to have us become one with Him. When understood properly it has an uplifting, empowering effect on believers to live a godly and saintly life. I understand how people can see it as blasphemous or radically different than their understanding of God but I would also say that anyone who will take the time to study ancient religions, particularly the temple traditions and first century Christianity, the modern Mormon understanding is not that different compared to possible readings of those texts.

 

[stokemeister]

Okay, so that was informative. I guess their beliefs only SOUND, at first, to be similar to Catholic beliefs, but then go off in an entirely different direction! Wow, I had no idea they actually believe some of those things.

That article is not a fair description of the Mormon beliefs, fully of straw-mans and insinuations we do not claim. For an alternative description I would recommend Jordan Vajda who was a Catholic priest and has written extensively on this issue.

maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/authors/?authorID=435

 

[bryce33]

en.fairmormon.org/Deification_of_man

This link might also be helpful in explaining this concept for those interested.

 

[PJM]

I live in Utah, and almost everyone I know is LDS. One of the biggest differences we can’t agree on the nature of God. They always say something along the lines of “what kind, loving God wouldn’t want His children to become like Him? What then is the purpose of life?” And no matter what I say about living for God, in His grace, etc., they always come back with something like “why would God have children for the sole purpose of worshiping him? That sounds selfish to me.” I can never put words to my perception of Him. The funny part of it is that I always think to myself, “man, they’re missing out on the entire idea of God by making Him and heaven so… human,” and they tell me “Catholic heaven is boring and you’re selling yourself short to refuse to believe that you are divine.”

Help?

NO! But MANY think they can and are.

WHY does an artist make someting and desire that it be praised? God DOE NOT need us; WE NEED GOD.

God in an absolute sense DID NOT have to Create us, much less as he did as the ONLY THINGS on earth capable of love, and therefore loving God.

READ Isaiah 43 7, 21 and take note of the word “MIGHT”

ONLY Himanity has a MIND, Intellect, and FREEWILL attached to our souls. THUS we alone can and MUST love God our Creator.

God Bless,
Pat

 

[JonathonofOhio]

Yes, he wants us to become partakers of the Divine Nature and live in a covenant relationship with Him. It is not my belief at all that I will become equal with God, my belief is that I can become one with God through the grace of Christ. It is also my belief that God wants us to be like him in characteristics. Yes, absolutely He wants us to love him as he loves us and it is His Family. Worship is absolutely not about saying a bunch of good things about God every Sunday. The highest worship is offering our entire selves to Him. We offer ourselves to him through our ongoing choices to stay in the covenant and keep His commandments.
.

I notice you say “it is my belief”, not “it is the Mormon belief”. So I guess the question is: why are you not a Catholic?

catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9712fea2.asp – Are you asserting that this article is incorrect about what the Mormon church teaches?

 

[Heuchler]

Catholicism holds something somewhat similar. We call it divizination and I think the best way it is said during the mass when the priest says, “by the mystery of this water and wine, may we come to share in the divinity of Christ, who humbled himself to share in our humanity.” Essentially, we do not become Gods as if God sends us out to create our own worlds, but we share in Christ’s divinity by becoming one with God in Heaven. Mormonism teaches through this that God was just like us. He wasn’t the first God, he is just one of many placed over the different worlds. So, God isn’t eternal nor is he truly creator of all if the teachings of Mormonism are true. He is nothing more than we are. However, Catholicism teaches that through our divizination we are still there solely to please God and not to just tend to other worlds, we are there for him to eternally love and for us to eternally love him.

 

[bryce33]

I think it’s funny how people bring up creating worlds like it’s official LDS church doctrine. We don’t know what we’ll being doing in the afterlife a million years from now just like anybody else. People and members of the church have speculated but we just don’t know. It’s not official church doctrine like I said. I’ve been a member my whole life and not once have I sat in Sunday school and been taught or heard that we’re going to go off and create worlds when we die. Yes, we believe that God has created worlds without number, what that means to us is unknown. Are there more Gods out there? We don’t know, it’s all speculation and it doesn’t matter anyways. For us there is only one God, He will always be our God, and that’s really all we need to know. Beyond that it’s all shock factor that other religions obsess with.

 

[bryce33]

I notice you say “it is my belief”, not “it is the Mormon belief”. So I guess the question is: why are you not a Catholic?

catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9712fea2.asp – Are you asserting that this article is incorrect about what the Mormon church teaches?

There are quite a few misrepresentations in this article. People of other faiths always try to explain what we believe but never quite get it right. Often times these are innocent mistakes that just happen through ignorance, but though some of it is true it’s usually taken out of context or based on false assumptions.

 

[JonathonofOhio]

There are quite a few misrepresentations in this article. People of other faiths always try to explain what we believe but never quite get it right. Often times these are innocent mistakes that just happen through ignorance, but though some of it is true it’s usually taken out of context or based on false assumptions.

That sort of thing happens to Catholics a lot too so I understand where you are coming from. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.

We have the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is available online, and is an exposition of our faith. Do you guys have something similar that explains what the doctrines of the Mormon church specifically are, and what you are required to believe in order to be a member of your church?

 

[FCEGM]

. . .Yes, we believe that God has created worlds without number, what that means to us is unknown. Are there more Gods out there? We don’t know, it’s all speculation and it doesn’t matter anyways. For us there is only one God, He will always be our God, and that’s really all we need to know. Beyond that it’s all shock factor that other religions obsess with.

That Mormons are unable to answer in the negative the possibility of other Gods - along with Mormonism’s consideration of God’s nature a la the “King Follett Discourse” - demonstrates the vast dissimilarity between Catholicism (with all orthodox Christianity) and Mormonism no matter how much Mormonism tries to play with the same words.

mldb.byu.edu/follett.htm