Becoming Gods....

[bryce33]

I don’t see any misrepresentations. Perhaps you would like to point them out.

Oy… Not worth my time… I’m not about to get into a pointless theological debate with somebody who thinks they already know what I believe.

You would think seeing how I’ve been raised LDS and all that I would know a thing or two about my religion and be able to point out whether or not a document about my religion from another faith is accurate or not. Believe what you want and say what you want, it makes no difference to me. I know what I believe despite what you think I believe, or what you tell other people. I’m not here to defend my faith in God, I respect all religions and defend our God-given right to worship the Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience. I believe in the Holy Spirit and in the spirit of revelation and believe that God can and will guide us along His chosen path for those who earnestly seek His will. Ask and ye shall receive, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you.

All I can tell you is that I am so grateful for God in my life, He has strengthened me and supported me through my most difficult trials. I am so thankful for His Son, our Savior Jesus Christ. Words cannot adequately express what He has done for me, what He has given me. He gave His life for me, for you, for all of mankind, an infinite atonement, the ultimate sacrifice, the ultimate act of love for all of us. I don’t l know where I would be without Him, without His example, without His grace, we would all be lost forever. He has given me hope, a reason to live, a reason to want to be better and try harder each and every day of my life. Because of Him I can repent, I can change, I can have His Spirit in my life, feel of God’s love for me, and feel of the joy that it brings into my life. Say what you will, I am so thankful for my faith and testimony of Jesus Christ, and of a loving Father who sent His Son to redeem mankind.

What I believe is irrelevant to you, I know how God has blessed me and my family, I know how He changed my life. I have felt the quiet whisperings of Spirit of God as I have been led along life’s paths. I have felt His sweet influence as the Comforter has been a part of me.

I can tell you now that you have no idea what I believe, so caught up are you in what others have led you to believe about the LDS church. The LDS church is a force for good in this world, just as I believe that the Catholic church and other churches are also. Ignorance is not God’s way, I say unlearn what you think you know about us and begin to see what we really are. We’re not at opposition with one another, we are all God’s children, all of us sons and daughters of God. Believe what you will and I will do the same.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Bryce33, before we continue, you should realize that I was raised LDS. I do know what the LDS Church teaches, as I was taught it. I do realize that individual LDS can have very differing beliefs, but, the document in question addresses LDS teaching very well, from a Christian perspective. Whether or not you personally believe what the LDS Church teaches, is not addressed in that document.

It isn’t about arguing, it is about backing up what you are saying. If there are errors, then it would be good for you to point out what they are.

Also, if you could answer what I asked in post #59, that would clarify what you believe, in relationship to what the LDS Church teaches.

 

[bryce33]

Bryce33, before we continue, you should realize that I was raised LDS. I do know what the LDS Church teaches, as I was taught it. I do realize that individual LDS can have very differing beliefs, but, the document in question addresses LDS teaching very well, from a Christian perspective. Whether or not you personally believe what the LDS Church teaches, is not addressed in that document.

It isn’t about arguing, it is about backing up what you are saying. If there are errors, then it would be good for you to point out what they are.

Also, if you could answer what I asked in post #59, that would clarify what you believe, in relationship to what the LDS Church teaches.

I assumed as much. It makes sense, former members can really obsess over the King Follett discourse and stuff like this for some reason.

Sigh… When I get a chance I’ll answer post #59 for you. I’m not sure what you’re hoping to hear, but you know, we believe what we believe, you and I, and I can understand wanting to defend what you believe in. I’m sure you feel strongly about your beliefs and your prior participation in the church and I of course see it through a different set of eyes and am very thankful for my membership in the church. We all have different motives that drive us, so yes I will give you the long answer when I have time, the short answer though is this; it really doesn’t matter to me. I really don’t care, it has no bearing on my salvation and it’s not worth my time to sit and stew over it. Now before you go off and try to tell me what the church believes, yes, I’ve read the King Follett discourse, I know what it says, what it means to me is unknown and I am not disturbed by it like you are. My faith is built upon more than that and my beliefs fall in line with this article, they are more or less the same, if you care to read it.

Take care RebeccaJ,
You have a good night.

fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_the_nature_of_God/Hinckley_downplaying_the_King_Follett_Discourse

 

[bryce33]

Bryce33, before we continue, you should realize that I was raised LDS. I do know what the LDS Church teaches, as I was taught it. I do realize that individual LDS can have very differing beliefs, but, the document in question addresses LDS teaching very well, from a Christian perspective. Whether or not you personally believe what the LDS Church teaches, is not addressed in that document.

It isn’t about arguing, it is about backing up what you are saying. If there are errors, then it would be good for you to point out what they are.

Also, if you could answer what I asked in post #59, that would clarify what you believe, in relationship to what the LDS Church teaches.

Well I was going to work out tonight but I’m feeling a little stiff from the other night, so I guess I’ll toss you over an answer. Do I believe that there was a council of gods that appointed us a god? I believe that Joseph Smith when he wrote that believed that the Hebrew text he read that from said something to that effect. However, in truth I personally don’t give it much thought one way or the other. I feel like a lot of stuff said by early church members is either a) personal opinion or speculation that we are all entitled to but not official church doctrine or b) not understood, misunderstood, or taken out of context and since they are all dead we can’t just ask them what they meant by it, in which case a lot of speculation and conjecture is generated as people attempt to discover the meaning behind what is said. Either way it’s a lot of speculation with a lot of unknowns and a huge distraction from the things that really matter, such as our faith in Jesus Christ, His gospel, and the things that we need to do to work out our own salvation. There are a lot of things that we just don’t talk about because frankly there isn’t a lot of information on it. This is one of those topics, I’m not sure exactly what Joseph Smith meant when he wrote that and he’s not around to tell me. It’s just something that I don’t bother with and it’s something that the church doesn’t really teach or emphasize.

We have our ninth article of faith that says, “We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God.” We believe in revelation, we believe in prophets, we have in our church a prophet today. I’m fully confidant that if there is more for us to know regarding this then the Lord will make it known to us in His own due time, until then it is nothing that I worry or think about and know that the true meaning of it will eventually be revealed to us, if not in this life, then in the next. Until then I’m going to do all that I can do as a deciple of Jesus Christ to live my life according to His teachings.

I guess I don’t really have much more to say in response to your question. You know, I don’t really want this to lead into a barrage of questions where you’re hoping to counter my responses on every point of doctrine. The bottom line, yes the LDS church is different, we don’t believe in the Nicene creed and other things such as that so there are bound to be differences. What I believe is a part of who I am but that doesn’t mean I can’t respect people of different faiths and find common ground in what we believe in. Nor does it mean that I can’t try to understand what other people believe in. Obviously yours and my understanding of the LDS church is different because if you felt the same way about it as I do you would have never have left. Does this mean that I can’t understand how you feel? No. Does this mean that I can’t respect how you feel? Of course not. We are all entitled to think, believe, and act however we choose. Do I see things the same way as you? No, I don’t. Your interpretation of the church and what it believes is obviously different from mine. Why that is I couldn’t say, I don’t know you and you don’t know me, but it is what it is. I know that we are all God’s children and all equal in His eyes.

Have a good night RebeccaJ,
God bless…

 

[bryce33]

Bryce33, before we continue, you should realize that I was raised LDS. I do know what the LDS Church teaches, as I was taught it. I do realize that individual LDS can have very differing beliefs, but, the document in question addresses LDS teaching very well, from a Christian perspective. Whether or not you personally believe what the LDS Church teaches, is not addressed in that document.

It isn’t about arguing, it is about backing up what you are saying. If there are errors, then it would be good for you to point out what they are.

Also, if you could answer what I asked in post #59, that would clarify what you believe, in relationship to what the LDS Church teaches.

Maybe if I get a chance I will point out the errors and document them for you if you are being sincere and would like to more accurately display what the LDS church believes and focuses on. What I believe is exactly what the church believes. I do my best to follow all the council that our living prophet gives us.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Bryce33, thank you for the posts. However, I asked if you believed there was a Council of Gods that appointed your God over you. Not for speculation on how I feel about that teaching.

My speculation about you is, it is evident in what you say and how you say it, that you do believe this teaching of the LDS Church.

This teaching may not be relevant to you, but it is relevant for the discussions the OP and others are having with LDS besides yourself.

Other issues arise if you take the stance that Joseph Smith wasn’t teaching something true, wouldn’t you think? At any rate Abraham 4 and D&C 121 are LDS scripture, and not the teachings of a long dead prophet that you may, or may not, believe.

Have a good evening.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Maybe if I get a chance I will point out the errors and document them for you if you are being sincere and would like to more accurately display what the LDS church believes and focuses on. What I believe is exactly what the church believes. I do my best to follow all the council that our living prophet gives us.

And so were the LDS of Joseph Smith’s time, who were listening, believing and following what he had to say. As was I, when I was taught the same thing and believed it. However, I don’t recall being taught that anything a Mormon prophet had to say was irrelevant to one’s life and could therefore be ignored. That is a newer idea among LDS members, since I left.

Your time is yours, not mine, do what you like.

 

[bryce33]

Bryce33, thank you for the posts. However, I asked if you believed there was a Council of Gods that appointed your God over you. Not for speculation on how I feel about that teaching.

My speculation about you is, it is evident in what you say and how you say it, that you do believe this teaching of the LDS Church.

This teaching may not be relevant to you, but it is relevant for the discussions the OP and others are having with LDS besides yourself.

Other issues arise if you take the stance that Joseph Smith wasn’t teaching something true, wouldn’t you think? At any rate Abraham 4 and D&C 121 are LDS scripture, and not the teachings of a long dead prophet that you may, or may not, believe.

Have a good evening.

Sure, I get that, but you are not an authority on the church and you can’t speak for the church. Your experience in the church was completely different than mine. You’ve totally missed the point I’ve been trying to make, and you’ve put words in my mouth. Speculate all you want, what I actually said is that I don’t have an opinion of it either way, when it becomes relevant for me to understand or believe in it one way or the other then I’ll worry about it then. You’ve totally missed the meaning of what the church is about when you and people like you get hung up on things like this. It was not my intentions to change what you believe about us, believe what you will, it was only to try and show people that there is more to us and more common ground than what they might believe now. Just because you were a former member doesn’t mean you get us, if anything it means the opposite. I can quote scripture too, I can put words in your mouth too, it doesn’t change anything or prove anything, don’t presume to know what I believe in, what the LDS church believes in, when you are only willing to see a fraction of what that is. Anyways, regarding your next post, show me I said it’s okay to ignore our prophet? So anyways, I am done with you, you fail to realize the true meaning of the church and what the church is about. I can see where this is going, you’re right it is my time and I have better and more productive things to do with it. Again, good luck in all of your endeavors and God bless.

 

[RebeccaJ]

bryce33, I am not an exMormon, or a Mormon, I am a Roman Catholic. Who God Is, is important. Many Christians have died defending the One True God, and for not accepting various other gods, including the gods of polytheistic Rome.

Mormonism is polytheistic, and that is important to understand for Christians.

 

[Contarini]

I just want to point out that in no way does the LDS faith believe that God is basically like us, we believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ have immortal, glorified bodies

I do not want to misrepresent you–thanks for the correction. However, this is one of those cases where our perspectives will differ. From where I sit, saying that God the Father has an “immortal, glorified body” is saying that he is “basically like us.” I recognize that this doesn’t make any sense to you, and I should have qualified what I meant by it.

Both Mormons and traditional Christians believe that our ultimate calling involves possessing immortal, glorified bodies. It therefore seems to me that in the Mormon view the difference between us and God is primarily a matter of our present, temporary condition in this world, and not a fundamental difference rooted in our created nature. I have trouble seeing how one immortal, glorified body can be fundamentally different from another one (bear in mind that my measure of “fundamental difference” is the traditional Christian understanding of the infinite ontological difference between God and creatures).

The orthodox doctrine of divinization, on the other hand, in no way does away with the ontological difference between us and God–instead, we become partakers of the divine nature through grace.

and that definitely makes us different from other religions, but beyond that we don’t know, could we ever possibly comprehend what it means to be God? No.
Could we ever place limits on God, God’s authority, God’s priesthood, God’s power? No. Could we even begin to fathom or comprehend what all of what that entails? No. Could we ever begin to glimpse God’s understanding of the universe and of all things and what it means to be perfect? No. Not in our puny blip in what we call mortality.

But what about in our glorified state?

The orthodox Christian understanding is that even in that condition we will never “comprehend” (fully grasp) the infinite being of God. In the teaching of Gregory of Nyssa, one of my favorite Church Fathers, we will grow infinitely in glory and beauty and wisdom and holiness without ever beginning to approach a full comprehension of God.

Is that the Mormon understanding?

Do Latter-day Saints believe that thy are the spirit children and offspring of God? Yes. Do we understand what that means in detail? No. Do we really understand what that will mean to us in the afterlife? We’re trying to learn, but we believe that not all things will be revealed to us in this life. Because we say we’re children of God people think that we’re saying that God is like us, as it was said above, “only wiser, and greater.”

If you think that it’s even conceivable for us to reach a glorified state in which we can understand God fully, then yes, it seems to me that you do think God is like us, only wiser and greater. However, I think orthodox critics of the Mormon position need to be clearer that this is how your position looks on our terms and not necessarily how you see it. In other words, the phrase “God is basically like us” can be interpreted in different ways. Viewed against the traditional Christian view, the Mormon view does seem to be that God is basically like us. But viewed against the limits of our mortal existence, I understand why you would deny this description.

The other major problem I have with Mormons is your apparent acceptance of a “divine command” theory of ethics. I think this goes along with the particular kind of apophaticism that you profess in your posts (in other words, you believe that God is far beyond our present ability to understand and therefore that we relate to God primarily through following his commands, even if they are inexplicable–whereas the orthodox Christian tradition holds that we relate to God primarily through the presence of the Holy Spirit, who has already begun making us participants in the divine nature and conforming our intellects and wills to that nature). But again, I’m willing to be corrected.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Very well said, Edwin; a blasé attitude about divine things doesn’t get one very far in approaching the transcendant majesty of God.

To be fair, I don’t think he’s blase. It seems to me that he thinks of God primarily as a source of authoritative commands, and thus from my perspective is surprisingly lacking in interest in the divine nature from which the commands issue. It makes sense given his presuppositions as I understand them (which I think I understand a bit better now than when I wrote my earlier post).

Edwin

 

[CharlesVRock]

To follow on someone’s response about becoming Gods & the Mormen Doctrine… and the only other ‘person’ to try and make themselves a god…

“How art thou fallen from Heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into Heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds;** I will be like the most High**.** Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.” **~Isaiah 14 v12-14

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

They always say something along the lines of “what kind, loving God wouldn’t want His children to become like Him? What then is the purpose of life?” And no matter what I say about living for God, in His grace, etc., they always come back with something like “why would God have children for the sole purpose of worshiping him? That sounds selfish to me.”

Do Catholics disagree that worship is good for us and that God’s desire that we worship him is for our good, and not for his benefit?

I agree that we should live for God.

Do you think it’s possible that we’re simply looking at different ends of the same paradox, that he who seeks to lose his life shall find it?

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

The orthodox Christian understanding is that even in that condition we will never “comprehend” (fully grasp) the infinite being of God. In the teaching of Gregory of Nyssa, one of my favorite Church Fathers, we will grow infinitely in glory and beauty and wisdom and holiness without ever beginning to approach a full comprehension of God.

Really?

You reject Paul’s promise in 1 Corinthians 15 that we will know God as we are known by him?

Could someone provide a link to an English-version Catholic Bible? IIRC the Spanish version (Reina?) didn’t contradict that reading.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Funny, I see Bryce33 saying exactly the same thing I was saying about King Follett, and yet folks were all saying that I was the first Mormon to ever say anything like that.

you should realize that I was raised LDS. I do know what the LDS Church teaches, as I was taught it…
And so were the LDS of Joseph Smith’s time, who were listening, believing and following what he had to say. As was I, when I was taught the same thing and believed it. However, I don’t recall being taught that anything a Mormon prophet had to say was irrelevant to one’s life and could therefore be ignored. That is a newer idea among LDS members, since I left.

bryce33, I am not an exMormon

I am a Roman Catholic?

Really? You don’t talk much about Catholicism.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Really? You don’t talk much about Catholicism.

Cowboy Pete, I am a Roman Catholic at a Roman Catholic website. I speak as a Catholic, including on Mormon topics. Mormons who come here would like a podium all to themselves, but you’ll find many people here who know Mormonism, including that fact that LDS obscure their beliefs, and their history. So the monologue isn’t going to happen.

PS: I recommend that you read the forum rules.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Rebecca, I see nothing on the forum rules against posting contradictory quotes. And if the emoticons were against the forum rules, I don’t think they’d be provided.

If you don’t want people thinking of you as the ex-mormon with the axe to grind, you probably should spend less time billing yourself as the all-knowing ex-mormon.

LDS obscure their beliefs, and their history.

If anyone who has read my posts believes your contemptible insinuations that I’ve been disingenuous about my beliefs or the history of my church, then they aren’t worth speaking to. I’ve been on the level, and some folks are smart enough to realize that, and if you try to snooker them, make them think I’m the liar here, you’re going to find that you’ve lost the trust of at least some of the good people here. I’d prefer we steered clear of each other, but if you’re going to keep attacking my integrity, I am not going to tiptoe around you.

 

[Contarini]

Really?

You reject Paul’s promise in 1 Corinthians 15 that we will know God as we are known by him?

You mean 1 Corinthians 13, and of course I don’t reject Paul but your interpretation of Paul.

I do not think that this means “know in exactly the same way” or “know as fully as I am known.” I also do not think that it refers primarily to intellectual understanding but to personal knowledge–while the word “epiginosko” can mean “to know thoroughly” and this is what the Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich lexicon seems to think it means, it can also mean something like “to recognize” and I would understand it more in terms of an intimate, direct, personal knowledge in the way I know another human being. Our knowledge of God in this life is always mediated by the senses, by divine revelation, by emotional experience, etc.–in the Beatific Vision we will have a direct knowledge of God that corresponds in intimacy to His knowledge of us, and that is key to what deification means for traditional Christians. However, that doesn’t mean that our knowledge of God is ever exhaustive–because God is infinite, we can go on learning to know God (another way of translating “epiginosko”) for all eternity.

You should be aware that traditional Christians interpret Scripture through the lens of Tradition. We do not assume that people like St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Gregory Palamas were simply ignorant of passages such as this one or willfully ignored them. It’s certainly legitimate to ask us how we understand a passage like this that seems to contradict the traditional view, but we don’t accept single prooftexts as sufficient to overthrow or establish a doctrine in the face of longstanding tradition.

Edwin

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

You mean 1 Corinthians 13

Yes, thank you. 1 Corinthians 13. I finally went out and googled for a Catholic Bible, and here it is.

12 Now we see only reflections in a mirror, mere riddles, but then we shall be seeing face to face. Now I can know only imperfectly; but then I shall know just as fully as I am myself known.

Wow. While the KJV is better poetry, I like this Catholic Bible version far better, because it’s more clear.

“just as fully as I am myself known”

So you were saying, Contrarini?
Contrarini:

I do not think that this means “know in exactly the same way” or “know as fully as I am known.”

Despite training in both English and in the law, I cannot distinguish between “know as fully as I am known” and"just as fully as I am myself known." Can you help me out here?

Or do you not use the Catholic Bible that I referenced?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca, I see nothing on the forum rules against posting contradictory quotes. And if the emoticons were against the forum rules, I don’t think they’d be provided.

If you don’t want people thinking of you as the ex-mormon with the axe to grind, you probably should spend less time billing yourself as the all-knowing ex-mormon.

If anyone who has read my posts believes your contemptible insinuations that I’ve been disingenuous about my beliefs or the history of my church, then they aren’t worth speaking to. I’ve been on the level, and some folks are smart enough to realize that, and if you try to snooker them, make them think I’m the liar here, you’re going to find that you’ve lost the trust of at least some of the good people here. I’d prefer we steered clear of each other, but if you’re going to keep attacking my integrity, I am not going to tiptoe around you.

No, Cowboy Pete, the issue is not your use of emoticons, but the questioning of my faith. You’ve done it with others here besides myself.

And the rest of your post is nothing but “poisoning the well”, which is also something LDS are very good at, especially when it comes to people who have left your false religion.

I can’t say I’m surprised.