Beef, Beer and Catholic fundraisers

[christcnection1]

I do believe these events have the potential to lead people into temptation.

I think it was Gandhi who said something like, “when I think of Christians, I think of them with beer in one hand and a piece of beef in the other.” If anyone knows the exact quote, please post it.

Now, I don’t believe things things are bad in and of themselves. I enjoy a beer or glass of wine from time to time. I’m just wondering if this sends the wrong impression to many people.

To many Evangelicals it says… Oh, these Catholics would rather drink than pray. They are filled with alcohol rather than the Holy Spirit. Needless to say, it’s somewhat offensive to others.

In some cases, it may attract people. However, are these events meant to be merely fund raisers, or are real evangelization attempts made?

If this is solely about raising a few coins, holy heaven, there must be a better way!

Based on the posts here, I sense there is a holy middle ground in these various POV’s.

 

[yellowbird]

If it were sinful to drink alcohol, why would Jesus have turned the water in wine?

Aren’t the people who are obsessed with having us all live as long as possible saying that a glass of red wine every day is actually GOOD for you?

 

[catharina]

I realize that I am in the extreme minority here. I am guessing that there is no one else on CAF, out of all the thousands of members, who will agree with me or even have empathy for my POV.

I have empathy for your POV but I find it to be extreme. Read on.

Alcohol is a drug, not a food.

**
Indeed - and Paul said to use it as such, as an aid to digestion.
It is also a beverage and in some places, much safer than water.**

Finally, as an ex-Protestant, I can assure you that many Protestants dismiss the Catholic Church as devilish and pagan because of the tolerance of alcohol. I realize that the Catholic Church is not going to declare something that they consider good “evil.” But I think it would be a good thing for parishes to avoid throwing stumbling boulders in the face of the Protestants in their city. If you have the choice between helping a soul come home to the Catholic Church and quaffing a pint, would you really choose the liquor over the soul?

**
Our Lord chose as His first public miracle the changing of water into wine so all guests could celebrate at a wedding feast if they so chose. You’re correct the Church will never pretend this was an evil.**

It is really sad since we converted to Catholicism. At least in the evangelical Protestant church, almost everyone else abstained, and so we had a lot of friends and often got together for dinners, picnics, or just going out for a Coke or ice cream with church pals. Now all those church pals don’t associate with “Catholics” like us. But many of the Catholics that we know consider a social “unsociable” if there is no liquor.

Now here is where you’ve crossed a line - due to extreme “due diligence” - regarding alcohol consumption. I’ve never heard of any person or any family who insisted on bringing some beer or a bottle of wine along to an ice cream parlor. Don’t you think you’ve gone a bit too far in your need to make a point?

So we are alone a lot. It’s really fun to live in this beautiful Catholic castle and wander around alone, but to be honest, we won’t change our abstinent ways. I would rather be alone than associate with those who label me “Protestant” because I choose not to use the drug of alcohol.

I guess that’s why there’s an Internet, right?

I know many people who drink and many people who don’t drink. I know European famiies who always have wine or beer with dinner. (German.) Alcohol consumption or the lack thereof seems to me to be as meaningless in choosing friends as the issue of vegetarianism.

 

[Cat]

I find this interesting. I am a recovering alchoholic-havent had a drink in 23 years yet i have lots of friends. How would you not drinking limit your friends?

Good for you. You probably have some gregarious and outgoing personality traits that attract other people and that help you to maintain a good network of friends.

And we don’t really have these traits. My husband and I like to talk about figure skating, local theater, politics, and religion. My husband is a computer geek. I write novels and play piano. Beyond that, we don’t have a lot to say to others. We aren’t very good at hanging out and chewing the fat.

We just don’t feel comfortable around drinking and with people who drink. It has nothing to do with “holier than thou.” We don’t turn up our noses or make speeches to people about their drinking. We just sit there and feel totally left out and uncomfortable and awkward and out-of-place and unsophisticated and babyish and old-fashioned and out-of-style and dumpy and not connected with the others.

It happened last weekend. We went to a picnic with our Catholic Bible study group. Normally I have a great time with these people. But once the drinking started, I didn’t know what to say to anyone, and my husband just sat there. No one seemed interested in holding any conservation or discussing anything. We were the first to leave. We just didn’t feel comfortable anymore.

We go to restaurants that serve liquor, but we are in our own little “soda” or “water” world and the drinking doesn’t influence us.

Let me ask you a question. I’m going to assume that you and your family are not synchronized skaters. If you are, then the question is meaningless.

If you were to walk into a skating rink during a synchronized skating competition, how comfortable would you be chatting up people in the bleachers, out in the lobby, and even in the parking lot? If you saw one of the teams in the McDonalds down the road, would you feel comfortable walking up to them, congratulating them, and engaging their coaches and parents in conversation about the competition? Is this a way you would love to spend your day?

I would feel very comfortable and safe in this environment and and so would my husband, and our most enjoyable weekends each winter are spent sitting in a skating rink from early morning until late night watching synchro competitions and engaging in discussions about the sport with anyone we meet up with (we usually see lots of people from around the country that we know).

We’ve been around skating rinks for 20 years now, and we know the lingo, the people, the teams, the stats, the history, IJS (kind of), and more importantly, we live daily what they are living. We are with “like minded people” when we are at a skating rink. We feel comfortable there.

But chances are good you would feel like fish out of water and have no idea what to even talk about, and you would probably be bored and cold within a few hours, if not sooner and you would wonder what all the excitement was about.

That’s the way we feel around people who are drinking. It makes us feel very uncomfortable. We’ve spend our entire lives in evangelical churches with people who often won’t even drink a Coke or coffee because of caffeine. We feel comfortable with these people.

So it’s really hard to switch gears and know how to talk to people who are drinking. I know, it sounds ridiculous to those of you who have been around drink all your life, but to me, it seems ridiculous that you have probably never heard of synchronized skating, even though it’s been around for over 50 years now!

Those of us who are synchro fanatics can’t even begin to comprehend the way you feel. We are willing to drive for 12 hours in winter weather to watch our favorite teams do four minute programs (less for younger teams). It is incomprehensible to us that you are not sharing our enthusiasm!

I’m sure you’ll say, just talk to people who are drinking like you would to anyone. Just because someone is drinking doesn’t alter their personalities.

Well, we see that it does and maybe you don’t see it because you are around it all the time and it doesn’t register. But it registers with us. People get louder and jollier and they laugh at inappropriate times and they get right in your face and they hug you and touch you. Or they get really really mellow (which is what I think happened last weekend at the picnic) .

Frankly, I enjoy serious conservation when I am with people, and I just can’t get into this. I just don’t feel comfortable. OK?

Also, as a side note–I find the smell of alcohol virtually unbearable. It turns my stomach and destroys my appetite for food (which is actually a good thing in my case). Perhaps you would feel the same way about the smell of figure skates after a competition, or the rubber floors at a skating rink or the really bad nachos that all skating rink concession stands serve.

 

[catharina]

Good for you. You probably have some gregarious and outgoing personality traits that attract other people and that help you to maintain a good network of friends.

And we don’t really have these traits. My husband and I like to talk about figure skating, local theater, politics, and religion. My husband is a computer geek. I write novels and play piano. Beyond that, we don’t have a lot to say to others. We aren’t very good at hanging out and chewing the fat.

We just don’t feel comfortable around drinking and with people who drink. It has nothing to do with “holier than thou.” We don’t turn up our noses or make speeches to people about their drinking. We just sit there and feel totally left out and uncomfortable and awkward and out-of-place and unsophisticated and babyish and old-fashioned and out-of-style and dumpy and not connected with the others.

It happened last weekend. We went to a picnic with our Catholic Bible study group. Normally I have a great time with these people. But once the drinking started, I didn’t know what to say to anyone, and my husband just sat there. No one seemed interested in holding any conservation or discussing anything. We were the first to leave. We just didn’t feel comfortable anymore.

We go to restaurants that serve liquor, but we are in our own little “soda” or “water” world and the drinking doesn’t influence us.

Let me ask you a question. I’m going to assume that you and your family are not synchronized skaters. If you are, then the question is meaningless.

If you were to walk into a skating rink during a synchronized skating competition, how comfortable would you be chatting up people in the bleachers, out in the lobby, and even in the parking lot? If you saw one of the teams in the McDonalds down the road, would you feel comfortable walking up to them, congratulating them, and engaging their coaches and parents in conversation about the competition? Is this a way you would love to spend your day?

I would feel very comfortable and safe in this environment and and so would my husband, and our most enjoyable weekends each winter are spent sitting in a skating rink from early morning until late night watching synchro competitions and engaging in discussions about the sport with anyone we meet up with (we usually see lots of people from around the country that we know).

We’ve been around skating rinks for 20 years now, and we know the lingo, the people, the teams, the stats, the history, IJS (kind of), and more importantly, we live daily what they are living. We are with “like minded people” when we are at a skating rink. We feel comfortable there.

But chances are good you would feel like fish out of water and have no idea what to even talk about, and you would probably be bored and cold within a few hours, if not sooner and you would wonder what all the excitement was about.

That’s the way we feel around people who are drinking. It makes us feel very uncomfortable. We’ve spend our entire lives in evangelical churches with people who often won’t even drink a Coke or coffee because of caffeine. We feel comfortable with these people.

So it’s really hard to switch gears and know how to talk to people who are drinking. I know, it sounds ridiculous to those of you who have been around drink all your life, but to me, it seems ridiculous that you have probably never heard of synchronized skating, even though it’s been around for over 50 years now!

Those of us who are synchro fanatics can’t even begin to comprehend the way you feel. We are willing to drive for 12 hours in winter weather to watch our favorite teams do four minute programs (less for younger teams). It is incomprehensible to us that you are not sharing our enthusiasm!

I’m sure you’ll say, just talk to people who are drinking like you would to anyone. Just because someone is drinking doesn’t alter their personalities.

Well, we see that it does and maybe you don’t see it because you are around it all the time and it doesn’t register. But it registers with us. People get louder and jollier and they laugh at inappropriate times and they get right in your face and they hug you and touch you. Or they get really really mellow (which is what I think happened last weekend at the picnic) .

Frankly, I enjoy serious conservation when I am with people, and I just can’t get into this. I just don’t feel comfortable. OK?

Also, as a side note–I find the smell of alcohol virtually unbearable. It turns my stomach and destroys my appetite for food (which is actually a good thing in my case). Perhaps you would feel the same way about the smell of figure skates after a competition, or the rubber floors at a skating rink or the really bad nachos that all skating rink concession stands serve.

Again (my second response) this notion is rather weak: “… but to me, it seems ridiculous that you have probably never heard of synchronized skating, even though it’s been around for over 50 years now!” compared to the fact of water turned into wine by Jesus Christ at the marriage feast in Cana - about 2000 years ago.

 

[ethelzguy]

I don’t meant to sound harsh on this, but I would suspect it has mnore to do with the holier than thou attitude expressed. I have no problem with anyone who chooses to not drink, but I do have a problem with those who see my having the occasional beer or wine as me using drugs. The abuse of alcohol is a problem yes, but the normal use of it is not.

And CAT, yes beer and other beverages DO have food value…especially a good Irish Stout!!!mmmmmmmm:thumbsup:

Sounds like one of my grandkids coming over one day after school and asking me “Grandpa, did you know that alcohol is a drug”?

And some of you call ME “liberal” ???

 

[Spiller]

I realize that I am in the extreme minority here. I am guessing that there is no one else on CAF, out of all the thousands of members, who will agree with me or even have empathy for my POV.

But I hope that you will allow me to be a voice of dissention.

Alcohol is a drug, not a food…

Beer is most certainly a food – and a beverage.

 

[ibkc]

Alcohol is a drug, not a food.

Actually, it is both. Light to moderate use of alcohol can be beneficial to health (that’s the drug part), and for those who have a taste for it, different varieties can be paired with foods to complement and enhance the flavors (there’s the food part.) Alcoholic beverages are among the earliest foods made by man. Its responsible consumption is 100% Biblical. Evangelical and fundamentalist Protestant assertions that it was “really” grape juice that was consumed in ancient times is downright silly, since in those times there was no way to keep non-alcoholic beverages fresh for very long periods. Everyone drank alcohol back in the day. You are actually privileged to live in a rare time in history when you have a choice.

I actually have a lot of respect for people who do not drink, but I cannot follow the logic that it is absolutely evil for everyone all the time. Yes, alcohol is abused by some. So is refined sugar. Too much sugar can make you fat and ruin your health. But it’s not I go around deliberately shunning people who eat sugar.

 

[yellowbird]

Cat ~ I hear what you’re saying… if you don’t feel comfortable around people when they are drinking, to each his own. I suppose it’s best to avoid situations where you’d have to socialize when alcohol is served. I think it’s wonderful that you and your husband both feel this way… makes you evenly yoked so to speak.

I’m wondering though what you’d do in this situation: What if, after watching sychro skating for an afternoon, totally enjoying it and talking to lots of nice people in the stands, everyone decides to go out to eat and they invite you & your husband for more discussion about sychro skating. However, you know some, if not all would probably drink a beer or two with their meal. Do you think, given that you already feel very comfortable and have lots to talk about, you’d still feel like a fish out of water?

 

[Cat]

Actually, it is both. Light to moderate use of alcohol can be beneficial to health (that’s the drug part), and for those who have a taste for it, different varieties can be paired with foods to complement and enhance the flavors (there’s the food part.) Alcoholic beverages are among the earliest foods made by man. Its responsible consumption is 100% Biblical. Evangelical and fundamentalist Protestant assertions that it was “really” grape juice that was consumed in ancient times is downright silly, since in those times there was no way to keep non-alcoholic beverages fresh for very long periods. Everyone drank alcohol back in the day. You are actually privileged to live in a rare time in history when you have a choice.

I actually have a lot of respect for people who do not drink, but I cannot follow the logic that it is absolutely evil for everyone all the time. Yes, alcohol is abused by some. So is refined sugar. Too much sugar can make you fat and ruin your health. But it’s not I go around deliberately shunning people who eat sugar.

As far as I can tell, I never stated that alcohol is absolutely evil for everyone all the time. I do NOT think that is true.

I do think that if no one drank, the world would be a safer and healthier place. After all, no one who abstains ever drives drunk and kills someone. And as I mentioned before, studies of abstaining groups (Mormons, 7th Day Adventists, etc.) have found a much healthier population.

But I also know that people will continue to drink for all of earthly time.

I am an abuser of refined sugar (I am about 60 pounds overweight) and have had little success gaining any control over my addiction. I have theorized that I probably feel the way I do about alcohol because I have a family gene pool that would make me a prime candidate for rampant alcoholism. This is probably why our family has been abstainers for many generations–something or Someone “tells” us to avoid the thing that would kill us. That is why I pray for my daughters–I hope to God that the “beverage that Jesus drank” doesn’t catch up to the genes that they have possibly inherited from me.

 

[Spiller]

I realize that I am in the extreme minority here. I am guessing that there is no one else on CAF, out of all the thousands of members, who will agree with me or even have empathy for my POV.

But I hope that you will allow me to be a voice of dissention.

Alcohol is a drug, not a food.

Beer is most certainly a food – and a beverage.

And I am personally very put off by the attitude that many of you have against “Protestants” who choose to abstain…

The Problem I have is two-fold. First many Protestants suggest that any consumption of alcohol is prohibited by Sacred Scripture. They are wrong. Second more than a few I know drink at home, yet they put on a no-alcohol-for-me show in public.

You will also find that none of the abstainers are suffering from the active disease of alcoholism–always a risk for those who choose to use the drug of alcohol…

If indeed they are abstainers outside of public view.

Why do you disparage people who choose, in this area at least, to live a healthy lifestyle? More power to them! At the very least, you should accept their decision and stop smirking about how “enlightened” and “superior” and “Christian” you are…

See above. It’s not non-Biblical to drink in moderation.

If no one drank alcohol, no one would die in alcohol-related crashes…

If we were required to walk to work there would be less air pollution and we would be trimmer. How long would you like me to make this list?

It is my opinion that a church who offers alcohol at church related events is taking a dreadful chance… BB and falls asleep on the sofa in a stupor instead of making love to his/her spouse.

Yikes…

And I hate seeing what it does to people. I work in a hospital, and it’s very sad to see how many hundreds, thousands of people have wrecked their lives…

I hate seeing what judging and condemning others does to a person.

Misuse of alcohol wrecks homes, breaks up marriages, **Again, I repeat that people who never consume alcohol will never misuse alcohol, will they? **

Misuse…

A minor point, but alcohol is also a major factor in weight gain, especially in men, and especially in the gain of abdominal fat.

As is a great deal of other, healthy foods. Should we look down on people who consume those as well?

Finally, as an ex-Protestant, I can assure you that many Protestants dismiss the Catholic Church as devilish and pagan because of the tolerance of alcohol. I realize that the Catholic Church is not going to declare something that they consider good “evil.”…

Here it is!

The PRIME reason Catholics, the Orthodox (and even some Protestants) hold such low opinions of some Protestants and their judgmental, hypocritical and non-Biblical beliefs with respect to alcohol.

You think I’m being simplistic about Protestant rejection of Catholicism–I am not. The major stumbling block that caused me to hesitate about converting to Catholicism was ALCOHOL. I could not reconcile how the Church of Christ could tolerate a drug that has such a terrible record of destruction and death in human history. I still have a very hard time with it…

You clearly have a severe personal problem/hatred about alcohol. Please understand that your problem(s) do not extend to everyone. There is no condemnation in the Bible about drinking – except to excess of course. You hesitated in becoming Catholic because we do not have a man-made tradition that prohibits all alcohol consumption? Well, that’s on you. Read your Bible – there is no prohibition.

As for missing out on the “gusto,” I say bah. I don’t need a stinkin’ glass of fermented grain to be happy.

And no one is forcing you! Just don’t try to force your personal sense of what is “good” on the rest of us.

My husband and I have done a lot of thinking about why we don’t have a huge list of friends and why we don’t socialize a lot. We’ve come to the conclusion that it’s mainly because of alcohol.

Based on your comments on this thread, you might give this matter a bit more thought.

It is really sad since we converted to Catholicism. At least in the evangelical Protestant church, almost everyone else abstained, and so we had a lot of friends and often got together for dinners, picnics…

There really is something amiss with you if you feel you cannot make friends because you do not drink. There is also something wrong if you will not attend any function where alcohol is available. That’s on you, not the drinkers. We have wine at our yearly parish BBQ. I have never seen anyone drunk/buzzed there – not even close. So what’s the problem?

So we are alone a lot. It’s really fun to live in this beautiful Catholic castle and wander around alone, but to be honest, we won’t change our abstinent ways. I would rather be alone than associate with those who label me “Protestant” because I choose not to use the drug of alcohol.

I think you judge others because they drink and that turns them off and keeps them from becoming your friends. Or else you simply do not associate with those who drink.

Keep in mind that most Protestants drink – or at least their group have no prohibition against it. Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, etc. etc. etc. all are allowed to drink. In fact I can say it this way – those Protestant groups that I have the most respect for also have no prohibition against drinking.

I guess that’s why there’s an Internet, right?

Nope.

 

[BradW]

Spiller … wow, way to take someone apart, sentence by sentence. Doesn’t that seem a little excessive?

I’ll chime in more with my take on this topic later, when I have more time. But the sheer effort you put into replying sentence by sentence struck me.

 

[t68ware]

I think some people are going way beyond my original question in the opening thread. Please, keep the discussion away from taking eachother apart. So far, the answers to my question have been great, but please don’t make it personal.

 

[vee8]

Although Catholics and Protestants may be Christians it is like two very different countries and I suppose it would make things easier for each side looking at the other to think of it as a completely different country, Catholic land and Protestant land. Things are done differently in each land and if someone immigrates to another land and starts complaining about the new country of course the locals can get upset and defensive.

 

[catharina]

Hello all. I have an unusual question. Many of the Catholic churches around where I live host Beef and Beer fundraisers for families in need of help, and I have even seen published in our parishes bulletin that there “will be various beers available” at the function. As a Protestant and having gone to a Protestant church all my life, a church sponsored Beef and Beer fundraiser would NEVER happen. Personally, I don’t think drinking beer is a sin, but it just seems really odd a church would sponsor such an event. Is this kind of fundraiser common in Catholic Churches?

Wow. I’ll attempt a more responsive post. The Catholic Church has never forbidden alcohol consumption to its members. Also large populations of immigrants came to this nation with their Catholic religion and their culture’s acceptance of alcohol intact. As a lifelong Catholic, I’ve never even considered anything unusual about the Church’s very neutral stance of alcohol being available at its festivities. At the same time, I know many Catholics who don’t drink and that fact doesn’t keep them away from Church-sponsored celebrations.

No one is forcing anyone to drink alcohol.

 

[graceandglory]

As a Protestant and having gone to a Protestant church all my life, a church sponsored Beef and Beer fundraiser would NEVER happen.

I have an issue with this too. Especially the Vegas nights of gambling in Church halls. Sort of seems something Jesus might have a problem with. “turning His Father’s house into a den of iniquity…”?

:nope:

When I was protestant, I was completely against all alcohol. I think a lot of my choosing a prohibitionist faith that believed Jesus served grape juice were my own issues being raised Catholic with addictions in my extended family. I bought my first bottle of wine four yrs ago for Easter. I reverted back to Catholicism 6 months later. I wonder if there’s a correlation?

 

[ethelzguy]

I have an issue with this too. Especially the Vegas nights of gambling in Church halls. Sort of seems something Jesus might have a problem with. “turning His Father’s house into a den of iniquity…”?

:nope:

When I was protestant, I was completely against all alcohol. I think a lot of my choosing a prohibitionist faith that believed Jesus served grape juice were my own issues being raised Catholic with addictions in my extended family. I bought my first bottle of wine four yrs ago for Easter. I reverted back to Catholicism 6 months later. I wonder if there’s a correlation?

How is Vegas Night any different than Bingo? Folks having good, clean fun, and raising money for the Church or School? Over in the next parish, Casino Night is the biggest fund raiser for the Catholic school every year. Lots of non-Catholics attend. It generally raises in the neighborhood of 50k for the school.

Not bad for one evening.

 

[graceandglory]

]But I think it would be a good thing for parishes to avoid throwing stumbling boulders in the face of the Protestants in their city.

.
.
The major stumbling block that caused me to hesitate about converting to Catholicism was ALCOHOL.

Good post, Cat. It kept me away too. Drunk cafeteria Catholics in all countries will continue to be a stumbling block.

Matthew 18:6-7
*** "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.

Woe to the world because of things that cause sin! Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come!"***
NAB

 

[graceandglory]

How is Vegas Night any different than Bingo? Folks having good, clean fun, and raising money for the Church or School? Over in the next parish, Casino Night is the biggest fund raiser for the Catholic school every year. Lots of non-Catholics attend. It generally raises in the neighborhood of 50k for the school.

Not bad for one evening.

Hi ethelzguy,

What would you say Jesus was so upset with that he turned over the tables in the temples and called the people a “brood of vipers?”

 

[ethelzguy]

Good post, Cat. It kept me away too. Drunk cafeteria Catholics in all countries will continue to be a stumbling block.

As if drunkenness is reserved only to Catholics?

The difference between a Baptist and a Catholic?

Catholics drink on the FRONT porch.

The difference between a Methodist and a Baptist?

The Methodist will speak to you in the liquor store.