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ethelzguy
Guest
Moneychangers for personal business gain is a far cry from a church/school fundraiser.
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graceandglory
Guest
You don’t care that people have been hurt and left the Catholic church because of these things do you?Moneychangers for personal business gain is a far cry from a church/school fundraiser.
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estesbob
Guest
Years ago the Southern baptist Convention held their meetng in Houston. The waitresses reported the favorite drink appeared to be whiskey served in Coffee cups.As if drunkenness is reserved only to Catholics?
The difference between a Baptist and a Catholic?
Catholics drink on the FRONT porch.
The difference between a Methodist and a Baptist?
The Methodist will speak to you in the liquor store.
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JRKH
Guest
I see you are from PA. I live in Ohio (Cinci area).
Lot’s of German ancestry here as I bet there is in your area.
Beer is just part of the culture.
Never been to a parish festival where beer wasn’t sold, so why not beer at other fundraisers?
Church Fesivals = Beer + Brauts + Beans + Metts
This is what makes summer great!!
James
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estesbob
Guest
People have left the Church becuase other people drank alchohol?
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omegabane
Guest
My parish frequently has such events, though we’ve never had one by this precise title as far as I can tell. But we host “Pub Trivia Nights” where beer is provided and teams compete on Catholic trivia questions. We host wine tasting classes or wine tasting booths at parish festivals. We offer wine and beer at fundraising events.
As others have commented, unacceptable drinking behavior is controlled if it ever occurs (which is very rare).
I would say things like this are quite common, and that there is nothing to worry about as long as moderation is the expectation and the beverages being served don’t raise other moral or social justice objections.
As others have commented, unacceptable drinking behavior is controlled if it ever occurs (which is very rare).
I would say things like this are quite common, and that there is nothing to worry about as long as moderation is the expectation and the beverages being served don’t raise other moral or social justice objections.
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omegabane
Guest
I should really hope that the vegas night is not being setup in the Church! But for a Parish to host an event in a Parish Hall or something similar, there is really no moral issue with this as far as I can see. My childhood parish hosted an “Entertainment Night” every year that featured friendly shows and Vegas-style games, but it was all a fundraiser, and people weren’t there to win money. They bought chips, won chips and then could cash in those chips for food or small prizes, but never exchange them back for cash. Many people just donated the chips back to the church.
It would be a different story altogether if the Church was promoting gambling for personal financial gain. Agreed - that is morally unacceptable and should be challenged if it ever arises.
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JRKH
Guest
I will just throw in my 2c here.
As I was growing up, I was exposed to drinking. In fact when littleI could crawl up on my mom or dad’s lap and take sip from their bottle if I wanted. I realize that such behavior could get you arrested today, but I am here to say that it had no adverse effect on us kids at all. My entire extended family was raised that way and, so far as I know, there isn’t an abuser among any of them. It isn’t to say that, as teens, we didn’t go out and get “stinkin’” at least once, but hey, whether your folks are teatotalers or not, kids will be kids.
There were five of us Kids, and Momand dad would have two or so beers per person per night. None of us kids drink even that much on a regular basis. I keep some around in the summer because it’s good right after mowing the grass, or during a ball game.
My point I guess is that we were exposed to drinking beer, and it was never treated as a big thing either good or bad. Consequently it doesn’t have much effect on my psychy either. Often times it is the “Thing forbidden” that holds the greatest attraction for the young.
Peace
James
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graceandglory
Guest
In a word, yes.
CCC 2284-2287
II. RESPECT FOR THE DIGNITY OF PERSONS
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Respect for the souls of others: scandal**
2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.
2285 Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: "Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."86 Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing.87
2286 Scandal can be provoked by laws or institutions, by fashion or opinion.
Therefore, they are guilty of scandal who establish laws or social structures leading to the decline of morals and the corruption of religious practice, or to "social conditions that, intentionally or not, make Christian conduct and obedience to the Commandments difficult and practically impossible."88 This is also true of business leaders who make rules encouraging fraud, teachers who provoke their children to anger,89 or manipulators of public opinion who turn it away from moral values.
2287 Anyone who uses the power at his disposal in such a way that it leads others to do wrong becomes guilty of scandal and responsible for the evil that he has directly or indirectly encouraged. "Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come!"90
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catharina
Guest
Let me be astonished with you at the apparent claim by graceandglory that people have left the Church because it doesn’t forbid drinking.
I’m of a very Irish ancestry with lots of genetic pre-dispostion passed down the generations toward alcoholism. Thanks be to God, in my own day, everyone of the relatives inclined to alcoholism has quit drinking. Not a one has ever stated a grudge against the Church for encouraging their disease. Let’s ban doughnuts after Mass so the diabetics are not led into temptaion. A disease is a disease. Banning doughnuts, banning alcohol - give me a break.
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ethelzguy
Guest
Bingo and Casino Night has hurt who and in what way?
If somebody left the Catholic Church over Bingo and/or Casino Night, that is just red herring. There was something else afoot.
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catharina
Guest
Hi. You know that you are discussing making exceptions the rule - for those who suffer from a DISEASE. When you get around to it - ban sugar for the diabetics.
If/when people take responsibility for their own actions (as adult should): NO PROBLEM.
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graceandglory
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graceandglory didn’t say that people have left the Church because "it doesn’t forbid drinking. graceandglory drinks an occasional drink herself and is a faithful Catholic today.
graceandglory DID leave the church because of the drunkenness and belligerance of Catholics, (NOT THE CHURCH) but Catholics who did cause scandal because of their sinful drunknenness that was supported by the church.
graceandglory KNOWS there are protestant evangelical teetotallers who ARE scandalized and don’t investigate the Catholic Church because of the Church’s involvement in alcohol, and gambling.
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JRKH
Guest
First Let me say that I am not a big fan of the casino nights at church.
However - to address the above -
People have left the Church for many, many reasons.
If they leave over a casino night, it cannot say much for the depth of their faith in the True Church.
Yes Jesus did throw out the moneychangers
Jesus also dined with prostitutes -
If your pastor did the same, would you find his behavior acceptable?
Peace
James
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estesbob
Guest
I dxont see anything in there about Alchohol?
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graceandglory
Guest
Read it again. Try a little harder to understand what I’m trying to say.
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catharina
Guest
yoo-hoo. Earth to graceandglory?
You seem to have gone away into third personhood.
re this:
“graceandglory DID leave the church because of the drunkenness and belligerance of Catholics, (NOT THE CHURCH) but Catholics who did cause scandal because of their sinful drunknenness that was supported by the church.”
Incomprehensible to me.
The Church invited all the alcoholics to stop in anytime and get drunk?
No. I thought not.
re this:
“graceandglory KNOWS there are protestant evangelical teetotallers who ARE scandalized and don’t investigate the Catholic Church because of the Church’s involvement in alcohol, and gambling.”
It’s likely that many many folks know that - not just graceandglory.
If graceandglory imagines the Church will reach a day when it teaches that Jesus changed water into grape juice, then graceand glory has much more meditating ahead of her.
(BTW, welcome back.)
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graceandglory
Guest
Which part? The part that Catholics can cause scandal?
Whether you want to admit it or not, people in the name of the Church have caused scandal. This is the problem with brewfests. Many people who sponsor them are belligerent and don’t seem to care that they offend many people who love God and won’t investigate the True Church because of the behavior of the members of the Church. I was such a one. It does matter. People’s souls really ARE at stake.
I stayed away from the church for a long time and missed out on a whole lot that I will never get back because of scandal like this.
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estesbob
Guest
Ok I did . I still dont see where alchohol is mentioned. and since the church has no prohibition on alchoholic consumption I fail to see how doing so gives rise to scandal.
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graceandglory
Guest
How can you not see that I’m talking about drunkenness and people’s total disregard that it leads people away from the Church; and not merely the consumption of alcohol?
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