Beef, Beer and Catholic fundraisers

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I think the key line here is:
Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.
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Making alcohol available is not the same as deliberately leading someone into a grave offense. It would be different if we were purposely handing out free alcohol to known alcoholics at Church events. I don’t think that anyone would deny that to do this would be quite the error, but to suggest that to make any alcohol available at all is sinful or scandalous is simply not compatible with the quoted source.
 
graceandglory said:
How can you not see that I’m talking about drunkenness and people’s total disregard that it leads people away from the Church; and not merely the consumption of alcohol?
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I thought we were talking about *“Beef, Beer and Catholic fundraisers”? *

BTW-I am an expert on drunkedness and the problems it causes-I did years of first hand research on it.
 
catharina said:
Banning doughnuts, banning alcohol - give me a break.
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No, instead, let’s do our best to evangelize our communities, not bring scandal upon ourselves by sponsoring what is offensive to many people.

Let’s also try not to be rude in the forums. I’m a smart person, you don’t have to insult me to let me know you disagree. I’m open to hearing your side. Give me the dignity to hear me without insulting.
 
I would like the angels of Heaven to be among us. I would like an abundance of peace. I would like full vessels of charity. I would like rich treasures of mercy. I would like cheerfulness to preside over all. I would like Jesus to be present. I would like the three Marys of illustrious renown to be with us. I would like the friends of Heaven to be gathered around us from all parts. I would like myself to be a rent payer to the Lord; that I should suffer distress, that he would bestow a good blessing upon me. **I would like a great lake of beer for the King of Kings. I would like to be watching Heaven’s family drinking it through all eternity.
**
Saint Brigid
 
estesbob said:
I thought we were talking about *“Beef, Beer and Catholic fundraisers”? *

BTW-I am an expert on drunkedness and the problems it causes-I did years of first hand research on it.
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The word is drunkenness, not drunkedness. 😛

This topic is in the Evangelization forum, right? Isn’t evangelization about bringing the Good News of Jesus Christ and the truth of His Church to all people?
How does that work when Christian people refuse to listen to you when there’s a beer in your hand?

That’s a fact. Evangelicals don’t see past the booze. If that is a stumbling block, and they say it is, then we’re not doing a very good job.
 
omegabane said:
I think the key line here is:

Making alcohol available is not the same as deliberately leading someone into a grave offense. It would be different if we were purposely handing out free alcohol to known alcoholics at Church events. I don’t think that anyone would deny that to do this would be quite the error, but to suggest that to make any alcohol available at all is sinful or scandalous is simply not compatible with the quoted source.
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I’m just going to have to disagree with you here then.
 
graceandglory said:
No, instead, let’s do our best to evangelize our communities, not bring scandal upon ourselves by sponsoring what is offensive to many people.

Let’s also try not to be rude in the forums. I’m a smart person, you don’t have to insult me to let me know you disagree. I’m open to hearing your side. Give me the dignity to hear me without insulting.
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Drunkeness is a sin.
Period.
The end.

Blaming the CHURCH for drunkeness is untrue and bizarre.

That’s as courteous as I can be on the subject.
(Here I’d thought I’d heard it sll. This notion is a new one.)
Our Lord turned water into wine as His first public miracle.
This was at a wedding feast, done at the request of His mother.
What is confusing about that fact?

I’m sorry if you “feel” I’ve insulted you.
I “feel” you’re insulting the Church.
 
catharina said:
Drunkeness is a sin.
Period.
The end.

Blaming the CHURCH for drunkeness is untrue and bizarre.

That’s as courteous as I can be on the subject.
(Here I’d thought I’d heard it sll. This notion is a new one.)
Our Lord turned water into wine as His first public miracle.
This was at a wedding feast, done at the request of His mother.
What is confusing about that fact?

I’m sorry if you “feel” I’ve insulted you.
I “feel” you’re insulting the Church.
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I have been very deliberate to not blame the Church. I always separate the Church from the individuals who are beligerant and callous in their disrespect for the souls of others.

If people are led away from the True Church, why do we keep on doing it? Is making a few thousand bucks a night really worth the cost? Booze and gambling make a lot of money. Why does the Church have to go there to raise support?

My concern is for people’s souls. You apparently can’t discuss this courteously, I wonder why.
 
graceandglory said:
This topic is in the Evangelization forum, right? Isn’t evangelization about bringing the Good News of Jesus Christ and the truth of His Church to all people?
How does that work when Christian people refuse to listen to you when there’s a beer in your hand?

That’s a fact. Evangelicals don’t see past the booze. If that is a stumbling block, and they say it is, then we’re not doing a very good job.
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As a baptist-ish/mennonite sorta guy studying into the Catholic Church I can say I would fall in more with graceandglory & Cat, but that would be expected from my background. I was a US Marine so I’ve been on both sides of the alcohol business 😉

It would be a bit awkward for me I guess but as long as it wasn’t to excess I could deal with it~and I know excess when I see it. Makes me wonder: While there are monasteries the make spirits are there monastic traditions that do abstain from alcohol? Scripture says

1Co 6:9 –1Co 6:12 KJV
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1Co 10:15 –1Co 10:23 KJV
I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils. Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

It is interesting that St Paul repeats the same line…all things are lawful but all things are not expedient (RSV says “helpful”); I cannot say “alcohol is forbidden” by any stretch, and so long it is controlled and the Church says it’s ok then it’s ok; but in my case I don’t believe it is expedient nor helpful for me.

**Funny thing is, I came over to the evangelization area 'cause I figured it would be a better place for asking questions and such, less confrontational than the “main floor”~~this thread as been a little rough around the edges; is there a haven where inquirers can go to for questions to be asked and not be “in the way” of the ongoing disputed topics?

Thanks
Jim
 
MrJim said:
Makes me wonder: While there are monasteries the make spirits are there monastic traditions that do abstain from alcohol?
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Yes, there are many communities that abstain and many holy priests and sisters. Temperance is one of the virtues.
 
MrJim said:
As a baptist-ish/mennonite sorta guy studying into the Catholic Church I can say I would fall in more with graceandglory & Cat, but that would be expected from my background. I was a US Marine so I’ve been on both sides of the alcohol business 😉

It would be a bit awkward for me I guess but as long as it wasn’t to excess I could deal with it~and I know excess when I see it. Makes me wonder: While there are monasteries the make spirits are there monastic traditions that do abstain from alcohol? Scripture says

1Co 6:9 –1Co 6:12 KJV
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1Co 10:15 –1Co 10:23 KJV
I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils. Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

It is interesting that St Paul repeats the same line…all things are lawful but all things are not expedient (RSV says “helpful”); I cannot say “alcohol is forbidden” by any stretch, and so long it is controlled and the Church says it’s ok then it’s ok; but in my case I don’t believe it is expedient nor helpful for me.

**Funny thing is, I came over to the evangelization area 'cause I figured it would be a better place for asking questions and such, less confrontational than the “main floor”~~this thread as been a little rough around the edges; is there a haven where inquirers can go to for questions to be asked and not be “in the way” of the ongoing disputed topics?

Thanks
Jim
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Just for the record, your views are very Catholic. 😉

Another area you might check out is “non-Catholic religions.” Lots of non-Catholics and Catholics discuss over there.
 
graceandglory said:
The word is drunkenness, not drunkedness. 😛

This topic is in the Evangelization forum, right? Isn’t evangelization about bringing the Good News of Jesus Christ and the truth of His Church to all people?
How does that work when Christian people refuse to listen to you when there’s a beer in your hand?

That’s a fact. Evangelicals don’t see past the booze. If that is a stumbling block, and they say it is, then we’re not doing a very good job.
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Grace,
Your right. Many won’t “see past the booze”, but I’ll wager that many more won’t see past the birth control issue.

My point being that people must be convicted of the Truth of the Church. Regardless of such stumbling blocks.
The Church isn’t going to change Her position on contraception, and she is going to continue to use real wine in the sacrifice of the Mass.
If someone refuses to listen because “I have a beer in my hand” then we’ll talk another time. If they refuse to listen at all because the Church allows drinking, then they simply are not ready yet.

Peace
James
 
graceandglory said:
I’m just going to have to disagree with you here then.
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How so do you disagree?

Do you believe that alcohol is intrinsically evil and that the Catholic Church should specifically forbid its consumption altogether, just as they specifically forbid artificial contraception which is intrinsically evil?
 
graceandglory said:
Which part? The part that Catholics can cause scandal?

Whether you want to admit it or not, people in the name of the Church have caused scandal. This is the problem with brewfests. Many people who sponsor them are belligerent and don’t seem to care that they offend many people who love God and won’t investigate the True Church because of the behavior of the members of the Church. I was such a one. It does matter. People’s souls really ARE at stake.

I stayed away from the church for a long time and missed out on a whole lot that I will never get back because of scandal like this.
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You made an interesting edit of my weords.

I said this:
*
"re this:
“graceandglory DID leave the church because of the drunkenness and belligerance of Catholics, (NOT THE CHURCH) but Catholics who did cause scandal because of their sinful drunknenness that was supported by the church.”

Incomprehensible to me.
The Church invited all the alcoholics to stop in anytime and get drunk?
No. I thought not."*

You quoted me as saying “Incomprehensible to me.”

Your quote was not even close to my meaning.
Certainly you know that.

If you choose to blame the Church for the sins of some, then that is YOUR choice.

Your experience has been YOUR experience. Who doubts it?

You seem to have no sense that others’ experience has been and is QUITE DIFFERENT from yours. That YOU chose to leave the Church over such a notion speaks only to what was your blindness; it does not speak to the better understanding, experience and faithfulness of others within the Church. You stayed away due to a CHOICE you made about a scandal.
 
JRKH said:
Grace,
Your right. Many won’t “see past the booze”, but I’ll wager that many more won’t see past the birth control issue.

My point being that people must be convicted of the Truth of the Church. Regardless of such stumbling blocks.
The Church isn’t going to change Her position on contraception, and she is going to continue to use real wine in the sacrifice of the Mass.
If someone refuses to listen because “I have a beer in my hand” then we’ll talk another time. **If they refuse to listen at all because the Church allows drinking, then they simply are not ready yet. **

Peace
James
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Precisely. Or should we follow Protestants into this one error to lead them from error?
As I said: incomprehensible.

I hope we know that in matters of alcohol consumption the virtue of temperance and the practice of refraining from the use of alcohol are NOT the same thing at all.
  • As you have said, a much larger issue is (surely) birth control. -
 
omegabane said:
How so do you disagree?

Do you believe that alcohol is intrinsically evil and that the Catholic Church should specifically forbid its consumption altogether, just as they specifically forbid artificial contraception which is intrinsically evil?
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Nope. I believe drunkenness can cause scandal especially when it occurs under the auspices of the Church. I left the Church when I was teenager because of scandals like that, and gay priests, even drunken gay priests. I loved God and it was difficult to feel His presence among people I knew who were drunk and partying and carousing the night before. When I was younger, I didn’t know enough to separate the Church from the members of the Church who were not living their faith. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it. 😛

People stay away from the Church for different reasons. Some stay away because of the Church’s teaching. Some stay away because of the Church’s people. Those people don’t fall into the same camp.
 
estesbob said:
I thought we were talking about *“Beef, Beer and Catholic fundraisers”? *

BTW-I am an expert on drunkedness and the problems it causes-I did years of first hand research on it.
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Geez, Bob…I thought I was the only anecdotal jokester around here 😃
 
JRKH said:
My point being that people must be convicted of the Truth of the Church. Regardless of such stumbling blocks.
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Yes! But my point is that some people will never HEAR the truth of the Church BECAUSE of the stumbling blocks! “Woe to the one through whom they come.”

If a beerfest is a stumbling block when it comes with the name Catholic attached to it, shouldn’t we be doing something else?
 
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