Beef, Beer and Catholic fundraisers

[catharina]

Nope. I believe drunkenness can cause scandal especially when it occurs under the auspices of the Church. I left the Church when I was teenager because of scandals like that, and gay priests, even drunken gay priests. I loved God and it was difficult to feel His presence among people I knew who were drunk and partying and carousing the night before. When I was younger, I didn’t know enough to separate the Church from the members of the Church who were not living their faith. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

People stay away from the Church for different reasons. Some stay away because of the Church’s teaching. Some stay away because of the Church’s people. Those people don’t fall into the same camp.

If the camp is called “Those who walked away from the Church” then yes, they are definitely within the same camp - and that’s the name of that camp. If they divide within that camp, ok by me. My own belief says that there should be no such camp.

 

[ethelzguy]

Yes! But my point is that some people will never HEAR the truth of the Church BECAUSE of the stumbling blocks! “Woe to the one through whom they come.”

If a beerfest is a stumbling block when it comes with the name Catholic attached to it, shouldn’t we be doing something else?

If beer causes drunkeness, do

guns cause crime? or, do

matches cause arson?

A beerfest is just that, a beer fest. Some can have a few and behave. others overindulge and make fools of themselves. But, they make fools of THEMSELVES, not the rest of us that had a few, had a good time, and went home.

 

[graceandglory]

If beer causes drunkeness, do

guns cause crime? or, do

matches cause arson?

A beerfest is just that, a beer fest. Some can have a few and behave. others overindulge and make fools of themselves. But, they make fools of THEMSELVES, not the rest of us that had a few, had a good time, and went home.

Ethelsguy, I’m not saying don’t go to a beerfest. I’m not saying don’t have a few with your friends and enjoy yourself.
Alcohol is related to drunkenness and death and abuse and the destruction of families. It’s a bad witness to the world, and people aren’t converted.

Not caring about people’s souls is scandalous.

 

[catharina]

Ethelsguy, I’m not saying don’t go to a beerfest. I’m not saying don’t have a few with your friends and enjoy yourself.
Alcohol is related to drunkenness and death and abuse and the destruction of families. It’s a bad witness to the world, and people aren’t converted.

Not caring about people’s souls is scandalous.

Who will disagree with that?

Yet is that your accusation? regarding posters here? regarding the Church?

For heaven’s sake, YOUR issue is not EVERYONE’S issue. It’s that simple.

 

[Cat]

I would like the angels of Heaven to be among us. I would like an abundance of peace. I would like full vessels of charity. I would like rich treasures of mercy. I would like cheerfulness to preside over all. I would like Jesus to be present. I would like the three Marys of illustrious renown to be with us. I would like the friends of Heaven to be gathered around us from all parts. I would like myself to be a rent payer to the Lord; that I should suffer distress, that he would bestow a good blessing upon me. **I would like a great lake of beer for the King of Kings. I would like to be watching Heaven’s family drinking it through all eternity.
**
Saint Brigid

I know that you don’t intend for this to be sickening, but for me, it’s just absolutely gross. If the Lord wants me to drink alcohol, He will have to work a miracle and make it taste good.

Don’t you all see?!!! I’m not trying to insult you, I’m only trying to show you how you look to others. Other Protestants feel the same way I do, and they won’t even look at the Catholic Church because of these kinds of comments.

Is that lake of beer worth losing souls over? I am getting the impression that many of you would say, “To hell with those who dislike liquor!”

Is my impression incorrect?

Let me ask you something–if it were possible for you to lead a soul back to the Catholic Church–but the condition is abstinence from alcohol–would you be willing?

I’m not saying that if you stop drinking, the hoardes of Protestants will storm the doors of your parish church.

But let’s just say that you discovered that someone was interested in the Catholic Church, but could not get past YOUR drinking. Would you stop for their sake, for the sake of their earthly happiness partaking of the riches of the Catholic church, and their soul’s eternal destiny?

I know you all think I am the biggest witch (with a “b” and I’m not talking about beer) in the world, but I am telling you–I am pleading with you to understand–I spent over 40 years in the evangelical Protestant world, and I am telling you --I am stating a fact–that if Catholics didn’t drink, more Protestants would take Catholic Christianity seriously.

How do you respond to this? Do you really respond to it by saying, “That’s their problem.”

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I know that you don’t intend for this to be sickening, but for me, it’s just absolutely gross. If the Lord wants me to drink alcohol, He will have to work a miracle and make it taste good.

Don’t you all see?!!! I’m not trying to insult you, I’m only trying to show you how you look to others. Other Protestants feel the same way I do, and they won’t even look at the Catholic Church because of these kinds of comments.

Is that lake of beer worth losing souls over? I am getting the impression that many of you would say, “To hell with those who dislike liquor!”

Is my impression incorrect?

Let me ask you something–if it were possible for you to lead a soul back to the Catholic Church–but the condition is abstinence from alcohol–would you be willing?

I’m not saying that if you stop drinking, the hoardes of Protestants will storm the doors of your parish church.

But let’s just say that you discovered that someone was interested in the Catholic Church, but could not get past YOUR drinking. Would you stop for their sake, for the sake of their earthly happiness partaking of the riches of the Catholic church, and their soul’s eternal destiny?

I know you all think I am the biggest witch (with a “b” and I’m not talking about beer) in the world, but I am telling you–I am pleading with you to understand–I spent over 40 years in the evangelical Protestant world, and I am telling you --I am stating a fact–that if Catholics didn’t drink, more Protestants would take Catholic Christianity seriously.

How do you respond to this? Do you really respond to it by saying, “That’s their problem.”

I should not think that “that’s their problem” would be a good response at all, but consider this: Isn’t calling something that isn’t sinful in and of itself sinful a sin? That is to say, if I say, “Drinking is a sin!” and the Catholic Church, on the authority of the promise of Jesus Christ that it would be lead into all truth, says,“Um, no, it isn’t, though the abuse of drink IS sinful. Also, you’re not REQUIRED to drink, ya know,” what do we think then? Frankly, we think,“That’s one more thing they’re wrong about,” since they patently ARE incorrect on that point. If we say that drinking is a sin, do we also then agree that invoking the saints is a sin or whatever else gives them “scandal?”

And I don’t think you’re a witch with a “b” instead of a “w!” And I personally do not drink at all.

 

[omegabane]

Nope. I believe drunkenness can cause scandal especially when it occurs under the auspices of the Church. I left the Church when I was teenager because of scandals like that, and gay priests, even drunken gay priests. I loved God and it was difficult to feel His presence among people I knew who were drunk and partying and carousing the night before. When I was younger, I didn’t know enough to separate the Church from the members of the Church who were not living their faith. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

People stay away from the Church for different reasons. Some stay away because of the Church’s teaching. Some stay away because of the Church’s people. Those people don’t fall into the same camp.

Well, I can’t disagree with you that drunkenness itself causes scandal - 100% true. Drunkenness is sinful, but alcohol is not. If the Church is promoting drinking to excess, then this is certainly scandal. I can tell you, though, that when alcohol is served at my Parish, this is not a problem. You yourself said in an earlier post that Temperance is a virtue. In moderation, alcohol is amoral. There are many things that are amoral in moderation, but highly immoral when taken to excess. People previously brought up donuts as an issue, primarily in a joking manner it seems, but there is truth there. Gluttony is a sin. Should the Church, then, refrain from providing food because there are some people who are addicted to food and just can’t keep themselves from eating it?

I think the problem with alcohol is that there are some other traditions - Christian and otherwise - that believe alcohol itself to me immoral. This is not the teaching of the Catholic Church, nor was it the position of Jesus Christ. Just because some choose to abuse alcohol does not mean that the substance is sinful.

There is one objective truth and that truth is God. As Catholics, we enjoy the fullness of Truth through Jesus Christ and the Church he established. We have been promised that the Holy Spirit will guide and protect this Church. This does not mean that every Catholic (including priests and bishops) will be perfect - they certainly will not be, they are human - but it does mean that we can be certain of the authority of the teachings of the Church. The Church, in her wisdom, has seen fit to call for temperance.

 

[t68ware]

It is amazing how this post took on a life of its own. I just wanted to know how Catholic Churches can host these events without being seen as hypocrites, and I have received my answer(s). It was not to debate if drinking is sinful or not, and it certainly was not meant for others to feel attacked. I think there has been enough said on this topic.

 

[Cat]

Some of you have accused ME of judgementalism.

Back at you.

I have never in any of these posts or in any other posts about alcohol on other threads–claimed that the Bible says that drinking alcohol is a sin.

The Bible does NOT say that drinking alcohol is a sin. Jesus turned water into wine (alcoholic beverage) for His first miracle. And St. Paul encouraged his protege Timothy to use a little wine for his stomach.

I am aware of all these verses and accept them for just what they are–endorsements of the wise use of alcohol.

**It seems to me that YOU are judging me by accusing me of twisting the Scriptures to make a claim against alcohol use. **

I have stated many reasons, none of which are spiritual or religious, why people like me make a decision to abstain from alcohol. I have NOT used the Bible to justify my decision.

I was evangelical Protestant for over 40 years, and I was NEVER taught that drinking alcohol is forbidden by the Bible. We were taught that drunkenness is a sin, which the Catechism also states, BTW.

I’m not sure why many evangelical Protestants choose not to drink. I think it probably has a lot to do with the culture of evangelicalism, which is rather aesthetic in many ways. I know a lot of evangelicals who do not take caffeine in any form, or eat processed sugar, and who are very careful to avoid overeating or excess of any kind .

It’s just part of the culture of evangelicalism, based on Scriptures which encourage us to live circumspectly and wisely.

I know that a lot of evangelical denominations got their start in the “piety” movement of Christianity, which of course forbade excess of any kind and the drinking of alcohol. So perhaps the non-drinking culture of evangelicalism has its roots in history.

At any rate, I am very proud of my evangelical roots. Some of you have listed denominations that allow or even encourage alcohol use. Every one of the denominations that you list also excuses abortion, encourages homosexual rights and practices, and ordains women to the pastorate. I am NOT saying that alcohol use is related to these things. What I am saying is that their endorsement of these sinful practices cause me to want to avoid any association with these churches.

What I wonder is this–if you were a Protestant, would you avoid the non-drinking denominations who correctly call abortion and homosexual sex sin, and who do not ordain women, and instead, associate yourselves with the “liberal” denominations so that you would be able to continue to drink? I hope not.

 

[BradW]

I have an issue with this too. Especially the Vegas nights of gambling in Church halls. Sort of seems something Jesus might have a problem with. “turning His Father’s house into a den of iniquity…”?

:nope:

Careful, Catholics were playing Bingo loooong before Vegas nights came on the scene.

 

[omegabane]

…I am telling you–I am pleading with you to understand–I spent over 40 years in the evangelical Protestant world, and I am telling you --I am stating a fact–that if Catholics didn’t drink, more Protestants would take Catholic Christianity seriously.

How do you respond to this? Do you really respond to it by saying, “That’s their problem.”

No, of course I am not going to say “that’s their problem;” however, I am going to say that the Catholic Church is not in the habit of changing its position because others disagree with it. As I mentioned in a previous post, there is one objective truth, and in her wisdom, the Church has not seen fit to ban alcohol.

I know you personally have never made this claim in your posts here, but since I know that evangelical protestants tend to be fans of solo scriptura, I would ask any of them that come to me about this issue for a scriptural reference that indicates that alcohol, itself, is sinful. I’m not looking for something that says drunkenness is sinful because I know that exists.

There is certainly nothing wrong with a personal choice to abstain from alcohol. But that choice doesn’t mean others should be prevented, or that you should judge others if they do happen to drink.

So while it isn’t “their problem,” it is their responsibility to seek the truth - a truth which they will ultimately find in the Catholic Church. That they don’t agree with the Church is no defense.

 

[catharina]

What I wonder is this–if you were a Protestant, would you avoid the non-drinking denominations who correctly call abortion and homosexual sex sin, and who do not ordain women, and instead, associate yourselves with the “liberal” denominations so that you would be able to continue to drink? I hope not.

It is statements such as these that are profoundly offenisve.
Do you think so little of your fellow Catholics?
Do you think so little of those of us who are lifelong Catholics?

Do you still listen to certain “evangelical” scripts that play in your head?

Do you imagine that most/many Catholics do what they can to support sinful living?

Whatever your main point? I don’t get it.

 

[Cat]

I wish to to state that I totally resent the accusations that many Protestants drink secretly.

I was evangelical Protestant for over 40 years, from the time that I was a small child. I knew hundreds and hundreds of evangelical Protestants as friends and “sisters and brothers” in Christ.

Can YOU make that claim?

I spent hours and HOURS of my life with these people. Evangelicals often spend 5-6 days a week involved in some kind of church activity or ministry; I did, along with my friends and co-workers in the evangelical churches. We shared children back and forth, and spent time in each other’s homes.

Can YOU make that claim?

NEVER, EVER did my friends and brothers and sisters in Christ drink alcohol “secretly.”

I’m sure that there were “closet drinkers” in the churches, but I never met any of them. My evangelical friends were pious, holy people with deep, active faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Many of them would willingly give away everything–and some did!–to serve the Lord.

I realize that some of you have met up with hypocrites in Protestant churches. I’m sorry about that. Sin happens.

But I think that some of you simply have a hard time comprehending that there are many people–including most evangelical Christians–who choose not to drink and who DO NOT DRINK, ever, under any circumstances, including weddings, toasts, etc.

Well, start comprehending it.

Abstinence is not some kind of “fringe.”

Stop accusing Protestants of being “closet drinkers.” That is simply not the general rule among evangelicals.

I will admit that it has been four years since I have been closely associated with evangelicals, so it’s certainly possible that in the last four years, many evangelical Protestants have taken up drinking “secretly.” My apologies if know this for a fact.

 

[omegabane]

What I wonder is this–if you were a Protestant, would you avoid the non-drinking denominations who correctly call abortion and homosexual sex sin, and who do not ordain women, and instead, associate yourselves with the “liberal” denominations so that you would be able to continue to drink? I hope not.

Well, the good news is that Catholics are not Protestants. With the fullness of the truth in the Church established by Christ we don’t have to worry about making that choice.

 

[Cat]

It is statements such as these that are profoundly offenisve.
Do you think so little of your fellow Catholics?
Do you think so little of those of us who are lifelong Catholics?

Do you still listen to certain “evangelical” scripts that play in your head?

Do you imagine that most/many Catholics do what they can to support sinful living?

Whatever your main point? I don’t get it.

So what you are telling me is that you WOULD give up alcohol if it meant leading a soul home to the Catholic Church?

Thank you.

My main point is that I get the feeling from threads and from discussion with Catholics in real life that many Catholics would rather see people die in their sins than give up their liquor. I apologize if my perception of my fellow Catholics is incorrect.

 

[BradW]

People have left the Church becuase other people drank alchohol?

Does that surprise you? Read I Cor. 8. It’s not a new problem, though in I Cor 8 it was meat, not drink.

Matter of fact, I’d say a LOT of people could use a refresher from St. Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians.

 

[omegabane]

My main point is that I get the feeling from threads and from discussion with Catholics in real life that many Catholics would rather see people die in their sins than give up their liquor. I apologize if my perception of my fellow Catholics is incorrect.

I would say that people who truly feel this way have an alcohol addiction.

 

[JRKH]

Yes! But my point is that some people will never HEAR the truth of the Church BECAUSE of the stumbling blocks! “Woe to the one through whom they come.”

If a beerfest is a stumbling block when it comes with the name Catholic attached to it, shouldn’t we be doing something else?

How many stumbling blocks are you wiilling to remove.
Beer?
Bingo?
Statues?
Rosaries?
Contraception?
Celibacy?

Now I realize that some of these things are doctrinal and some simply cultural practices, but the point is that, if someone is interested in learning more about the Church, they will learn. If they are stopped by something as simple as beer, how will they react to the larger and more important issues?

I like my beer, and it is perfectly fine with the Lord.
If others choose not drink that is there perogative.

Peace
JAmes

 

[Cat]

No, of course I am not going to say “that’s their problem;” however, I am going to say that the Catholic Church is not in the habit of changing its position because others disagree with it. As I mentioned in a previous post, there is one objective truth, and in her wisdom, the Church has not seen fit to ban alcohol.

I know you personally have never made this claim in your posts here, but since I know that evangelical protestants tend to be fans of solo scriptura, I would ask any of them that come to me about this issue for a scriptural reference that indicates that alcohol, itself, is sinful. I’m not looking for something that says drunkenness is sinful because I know that exists.

There is certainly nothing wrong with a personal choice to abstain from alcohol. But that choice doesn’t mean others should be prevented, or that you should judge others if they do happen to drink.

So while it isn’t “their problem,” it is their responsibility to seek the truth - a truth which they will ultimately find in the Catholic Church. That they don’t agree with the Church is no defense.

I have NEVER “asked” that the Catholic Church ban alcohol, and I never will. The Catholic Church has made the correct decision, namely that alcohol is an earthly pleasure for those who use it wisely.

Again I ask, who’s judging who here?

But would it not be possible for individual parishes to choose to hold their picnics and socials as "alcohol-free events?"

Does the Vatican MANDATE that alcoholic beverages be offered at ALL church-sponsored socials? Surely not.

Our Park District (one of the top-rated park districts in the U.S.) has a policy that there will be no alcoholic beverages served at Park District sponsored events or venues. This is a secular organization, and they have made this decision in the public interest, not to judge people or to legislate morality. It is strictly a safety and liability issue. The public continues to flock to Park District activities and events; the alcohol-free policy doesn’t seem to keep fun-lovers away.

And why on earth would you ask evangelical Protestants to prove from the Scriptures that alcohol is sinful? They would agree with you. There are many reasons that people choose to abstain from alcohol that have nothing to do with sin and religion. Why would you challenge them?

And why do you assume that I am trying to prevent you from drinking, or that I am judging you for choosing to drink? It’s fine with me–on your OWN time.

I am merely stating my opinion of OP’s question–I don’t think that parishes should hold events featuring alcohol consumption. If parishioners want to hold a backyard picnic, or a big party in their home, and offer alcohol, fine.

But I think it would be a better witness to the community if parish events and socials were alcohol-free and if this announcment was PROMINENT in the publicity for the event. I think it would send a message that the parish is concerned for the health and safety of all who attend the event, and I think it would send a message to any Protestants who are watching that “Catholics don’t need alcohol to have a great fellowship.”

Some people have presented the argument that perhaps the Church should not serve food to avoid tempting those with overeating problems. To be honest, YES–I think this would be an excellent idea! Donuts and coffee?!! These don’t fit into ANY diet. (Well, the coffee is OK, accordingto the latest study, but in a few months, another study will announce that coffee is a death trap.)

Why not fresh fruit, cheese, and juice, water, or milk? Considering that 63% of people, including children, in the U.S. are overweight or obese, wouldn’t this be a more hospitable thing to serve? And it’s not that much more expensive, is it?

The Bible talks about the importance of hospitality. I think that we often have the idea that this is just a frou frou thing, but the Bible actually lists hospitality as one of the charisms of the Holy Spirit. To me, the alcohol and food issues are hospitality issues, not sin issues. I realize that many of you feel that it would be in-hospitable to NOT serve alcohol, and I will concede this point to you.

But I am also looking at hospitality as a means of building up the Church, which is, after all, the reason the Holy Spirit gives the charisms. And if our alcohol policy is goinn to turn away a large group of people, then shouldn’t we at least consider changing it? Irish, German–does this really matter here in the U.S.? We’re Christians–and that means that we consider others more important than ourselves.

 

[catharina]

**So what you are telling me is that you WOULD give up alcohol if it meant leading a soul home to the Catholic Church? **

Thank you.

My main point is that I get the feeling from threads and from discussion with Catholics in real life that many Catholics would rather see people die in their sins than give up their liquor. I apologize if my perception of my fellow Catholics is incorrect.

If I could do it in such a way that the proposed candidate for conversion understood without any equivaocation that I was doing so, exceptionally, for him/her (because my own FAITH tells me that I need not forgo alcohol) then yes, I’d be willing to do so. It’s a non-issue.

However, your open hostility (regarding Catholics who do drink) is quite another issue.