Beef, Beer and Catholic fundraisers

[BradW]

Grace,
My point being that people must be convicted of the Truth of the Church. Regardless of such stumbling blocks.
The Church isn’t going to change Her position on contraception, and she is going to continue to use real wine in the sacrifice of the Mass.
If someone refuses to listen because “I have a beer in my hand” then we’ll talk another time. If they refuse to listen at all because the Church allows drinking, then they simply are not ready yet.

Peace
James

We’re not talking about sacramental use of wine here. The moral and theological weight of sexuality and sacraments are very different from church socials. Surely you realize that.

Your last “they simply are not ready yet” brought to mind I Corinthians again. Can you imagine the following discussion as Paul was dictating his letter to the Corinthians:

Paul: Ok, scribe, write this: For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, that I might win the more. To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law–though not being myself under the law–that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law–not being without law toward God but under the law of Christ–that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings.

Scribe: … how about adding, "To the alcohol abstainer I became an abstainer…

Paul: ARE YOU KIDDING? That’s just going too far. Boy, you sure are holier than thou…

 

[JRKH]

I know that you don’t intend for this to be sickening, but for me, it’s just absolutely gross. If the Lord wants me to drink alcohol, He will have to work a miracle and make it taste good.

Don’t you all see?!!! I’m not trying to insult you, I’m only trying to show you how you look to others. Other Protestants feel the same way I do, and they won’t even look at the Catholic Church because of these kinds of comments.

Is that lake of beer worth losing souls over? I am getting the impression that many of you would say, "To hell with those who dislike liquor!"
Is my impression incorrect?

Not at all. There is no prohibition on drinking alcohol in catholicsm. Therefore the consumption of alcohol is not sinful. On the other hand, not drinking alcohol is also not sinful. If I drink and you don’t we both remain in a state of grace. The question is, since the Lord does not forbid it, why do you wish to?

Let me ask you something–if it were possible for you to lead a soul back to the Catholic Church–but the condition is abstinence from alcohol–would you be willing?

God determines the conditions. He has issued no prohibition on alcohol. Therefore, no I would not be willing.
Let me change teh question. If the condition was the returning of women to complete subservience would you be willing?
After all there are those churches that forbid women cutting hair, wearing pants etc.

I’m not saying that if you stop drinking, the hoardes of Protestants will storm the doors of your parish church.

But let’s just say that you discovered that someone was interested in the Catholic Church, but could not get past YOUR drinking. Would you stop for their sake, for the sake of their earthly happiness partaking of the riches of the Catholic church, and their soul’s eternal destiny?

If the problem was MY drinking, I would try to fix them up with someone who does not drink to mentor them. Problem solved.

I know you all think I am the biggest witch (with a “b” and I’m not talking about beer) in the world, but I am telling you–I am pleading with you to understand–I spent over 40 years in the evangelical Protestant world, and I am telling you --I am stating a fact–that if Catholics didn’t drink, more Protestants would take Catholic Christianity seriously.

How do you respond to this? Do you really respond to it by saying, “That’s their problem.”

You are undoubtedly correct. If the Church made certain changes many protestants would love it. But would they convert? I doubt it.
If we gain some members because we forbid drinking, will we also lose members?
Will there be a net gain or a net loss of souls?

Peace
James

 

[catharina]

Just saw your latest post (“I have NEVER “asked” that the Catholic Church ban alcohol, and I never will. The Catholic Church has made the correct decision, namely that alcohol is an earthly pleasure for those who use it wisely. Again I ask, who’s judging who here? , etc…”) and understand that you don’t intend to insult Catholics with any notion that they wouldn’t forego drinking to discuss faith with a tee-totaler. Funny I got that impression though. Oh yeah - because you said it.

 

[ibkc]

Cat, I can see that from your perspective, it is perfectly reasonable to think that individual parishes could ban alcohol at official events. Maybe there are some that already do.

The thing is, this really comes down to culture. This thing about strict abstinence from alcohol is a very puritanical, protestant, American thing. (That is not an insult, because this is my own background - I am southern and my family have all been Protestant for many generations.) Many Catholics come from cultures where drinking is a part of daily life - Irish, Italians, Germans, etc. - and it is just not seen in the same way as some Protestant Americans do. It’s seen as normal, ordinary, desirable, and a way to loosen up and relax. And we are not talking about habitual drunkenness; we’re talking about a couple of pints at the pub after work, or a glass or two of wine with dinner. This carries over into parish life. Of course it is seen as a scandal to come to mass drunk - and it would be very inappropriate to serve alcohol at things like Bible studies and RCIA classes. But to ban it at social events, like the parish fair? I hate to say this, and I may get slammed for it, but I think at that point you are stepping on the toes of Catholic cultural identity - and as hard as it may be to understand, the thought of that doesn’t go over too well.

One more thing: you CAN be Catholic and not drink, of course. I’m positive a lot of Catholics do not drink! But, Cat - I was really saddened reading your first few posts in this thread, where you said you basically do not socialize with anyone who drinks, even if they don’t get drunk. I think you are approaching this from an extremely narrow perspective. Culturally, it is so ingrained in you that alcohol is of the devil, and that is getting in the way of enjoying life as a Catholic. I know this thread has become heated and some people have been less than kind, but may I beg you to please consider the points I made above about the culture clash you are experiencing?

Bless you

 

[Tracy10]

Personally I am totally against the beer. This can make it exceptionally difficult for ex-alcoholics and cause them to get into trouble again.

There is no reason whatsoever for not being able to stick with soft drinks and water. In fact, it’s a terrible pity that today so many people consider events without alcohol to be somehow lacking.

What many don’t realize, is that when children see adults drinking alcohol, this suggests to them that “everyone needs a chemical crutch” in order to either enjoy themselves or to cope with life.

The most terrible ironic result is that often you will see such parents scratching their heads wondering why their children later end up being drug addicts.

Hello all. I have an unusual question. Many of the Catholic churches around where I live host Beef and Beer fundraisers for families in need of help, and I have even seen published in our parishes bulletin that there “will be various beers available” at the function. As a Protestant and having gone to a Protestant church all my life, a church sponsored Beef and Beer fundraiser would NEVER happen. Personally, I don’t think drinking beer is a sin, but it just seems really odd a church would sponsor such an event. Is this kind of fundraiser common in Catholic Churches?

 

[JRKH]

Personally I am totally against the beer. This can make it exceptionally difficult for ex-alcoholics and cause them to get into trouble again.

There is no reason whatsoever for not being able to stick with soft drinks and water. In fact, it’s a terrible pity that today so many people consider events without alcohol to be somehow lacking.

What many don’t realize, is that when children see adults drinking alcohol, this suggests to them that “everyone needs a chemical crutch” in order to either enjoy themselves or to cope with life.

The most terrible ironic result is that often you will see such parents scratching their heads wondering why their children later end up being drug addicts.

What many others don’t realize it that the more forbidden something becomes the more enticing it can be.

I will call your attention to my earlier post (#47 I think).
Every event we went to served beer. Even as small children we were able to take the occasional sip from mom or dad’s beer. Naturally we weren’t grabbing a could one out fo the fridge, but we weren’t totally cut off from any exposure either.
None of us grew up with problems. In fact we kids, 5 of us, probably drink less in a week than our parents did.

Peace
James

 

[estesbob]

I know that you don’t intend for this to be sickening, but for me, it’s just absolutely gross. If the Lord wants me to drink alcohol, He will have to work a miracle and make it taste good.

."

Well it looks like St. Brigid thought it tasted pretty good.

 

[estesbob]

Personally I am totally against the beer. This can make it exceptionally difficult for ex-alcoholics and cause them to get into trouble again.

.

That is simply not true.

 

[BradW]

Ok, having waded through all the bickering (you pro-drinking people are not winning my over with your gracious spirits), let me give you two of my experiences with church fundraisers and drinking. The first was back in my own protestant evangelical days, before I started looking into the Catholic Church; the second was as I was approaching the decision to join the Church.

1. My daughter was in a basketball dance squad that was appearing at a parish’s summer fundraiser. Naturally, I went to see her perform. When I got there, I was somewhat surprised to see beer being served, a bingo tent, and of course the dance team. “Liquor, gambling, and dancing girls”, I thought with a grin. I had to laugh–am I at a church, or a frontier saloon?
2. My own parish school’s golf outing. I went, largely to see what kind of people I was going to be with if I did join the Church. The golf was fun. The dinner afterward, a little awkward. See, I got there, started milling around the snacks and drinks before the steak dinner, and slowly realized… there was NOTHING non-alcoholic to drink. NOTHING! I tried pouring a glass from the 2-liter bottle of Coke, only to find it absolutely flat. (I assume it had been let go flat to be used as a mixer in some other drink? Sorry, not being a mixed-drink fan I have no idea.) Eventually I had to go into the kitchen and bother someone to ask if there was ANYTHING non-alcoholic to drink. They rummaged through a refridgerator and eventually found a bottle of pop for me. I felt embarassed and out of place for being apparently not only the ONLY ONE in this large group that DIDN’T drink, but that the Catholic Church apparently wasn’t even interested in being hospitable to people that didn’t share their love of liquor.

YOU talk about feeling judged? I was feeling pretty judged right then. It gave me pause for a while. I had to wonder how out-of-it and abandoned I would be if I was the only non-drinker. Fortunately, the Truth of this Church overcame it, but c’mon… the actions of the parish shouldn’t be working against the draw of the Holy Spirit, should they? All it would have taken is acknowledgement that yes, there really are people out there who don’t drink, and aren’t secrectly drinking, or secrectly wishing they had the juevos to drink, so let’s treat them as equal parts of the Body.

For the record, I don’t drink (obviously), not so much out of any moral conviction anymore, but because

1. I grew up in a non-drinking family and church, so was never taught how “fun!” drinking is, so had no expectation that this was something I was supposed to be doing,
2. I just don’t like the taste. There was one time I was out with a group, ordered pop instead of beer, and got an incredulous look. When I said I don’t like beer, the person said “oh you probably just never had good beer! Here, try this one! It’s really good.” So I did, and sorry, didn’t like it. I’ve had wine, supposedly very good wine at a conference-sponsored event at the winery itself (so you know they showed off the best stuff they had), and just don’t like the sting of alcohol. Even at communion, I always have to give one little cough to ease my throat because that appearance of alcohol in the wine is still present.

 

[omegabane]

I have NEVER “asked” that the Catholic Church ban alcohol, and I never will. The Catholic Church has made the correct decision, namely that alcohol is an earthly pleasure for those who use it wisely.

Again I ask, who’s judging who here?

Certainly not me, so it must be someone else. Only God is the perfect judge.

But would it not be possible for individual parishes to choose to hold their picnics and socials as "alcohol-free events?"

Yes, but I have yet to see a good reason for this presented in this thread. Again, alcohol is amoral, so why should it be banned?

Does the Vatican MANDATE that alcoholic beverages be offered at ALL church-sponsored socials? Surely not.

You are correct, there is no such mandate. Such a mandate would be quite silly.

Our Park District (one of the top-rated park districts in the U.S.) has a policy that there will be no alcoholic beverages served at Park District sponsored events or venues. This is a secular organization, and they have made this decision in the public interest, not to judge people or to legislate morality. It is strictly a safety and liability issue. The public continues to flock to Park District activities and events; the alcohol-free policy doesn’t seem to keep fun-lovers away.

Hmm… so the Church should take its cues from secular society? The State of California (one of the most influential and populous States in the U.S.) just decided that homosexual marriage should be allowed. There is no correlation between alcohol on government property in a public park and alcohol at a private parish event.

And why on earth would you ask evangelical Protestants to prove from the Scriptures that alcohol is sinful? They would agree with you. There are many reasons that people choose to abstain from alcohol that have nothing to do with sin and religion. Why would you challenge them?

First, not all evangelical protestants would agree with me, so that’s the first reason. Secondly, I challenge the ones who believe that anyone who drinks alcohol should be avoided. If they agree that alcohol is not sinful, why avoid those who do drink?

And why do you assume that I am trying to prevent you from drinking, or that I am judging you for choosing to drink? It’s fine with me–on your OWN time.

I am merely stating my opinion of OP’s question–I don’t think that parishes should hold events featuring alcohol consumption. If parishioners want to hold a backyard picnic, or a big party in their home, and offer alcohol, fine.

If memory serves, you did claim that you wouldn’t associate with those who drink, so I suppose you’re right. You aren’t trying to prevent my consumption of alcohol, you’re simply presenting an ultimatum to Catholics of the world who are enjoying something entirely licit.

But I think it would be a better witness to the community if parish events and socials were alcohol-free and if this announcment was PROMINENT in the publicity for the event. I think it would send a message that the parish is concerned for the health and safety of all who attend the event, and I think it would send a message to any Protestants who are watching that “Catholics don’t need alcohol to have a great fellowship.”

Again, I have yet to see a reasonable argument for this.

Some people have presented the argument that perhaps the Church should not serve food to avoid tempting those with overeating problems. To be honest, YES–I think this would be an excellent idea! Donuts and coffee?!! These don’t fit into ANY diet. (Well, the coffee is OK, accordingto the latest study, but in a few months, another study will announce that coffee is a death trap.)

Why not fresh fruit, cheese, and juice, water, or milk? Considering that 63% of people, including children, in the U.S. are overweight or obese, wouldn’t this be a more hospitable thing to serve? And it’s not that much more expensive, is it?

The Bible talks about the importance of hospitality. I think that we often have the idea that this is just a frou frou thing, but the Bible actually lists hospitality as one of the charisms of the Holy Spirit. To me, the alcohol and food issues are hospitality issues, not sin issues. I realize that many of you feel that it would be in-hospitable to NOT serve alcohol, and I will concede this point to you.

But I am also looking at hospitality as a means of building up the Church, which is, after all, the reason the Holy Spirit gives the charisms. And if our alcohol policy is goinn to turn away a large group of people, then shouldn’t we at least consider changing it? Irish, German–does this really matter here in the U.S.? We’re Christians–and that means that we consider others more important than ourselves.

Yes, I am one of the people the said such a thing. Mainly to show that it is ridiculous. There is no reason to ban things that are licit, unless there are other extenuating circumstances. For example, my parish happens to host one of the largest AA groups in San Francisco. It would likely be a mistake for the parish to provide alcohol at AA meetings.

 

[LilyM]

Some people have presented the argument that perhaps the Church should not serve food to avoid tempting those with overeating problems. To be honest, YES–I think this would be an excellent idea! Donuts and coffee?!! These don’t fit into ANY diet. (Well, the coffee is OK, accordingto the latest study, but in a few months, another study will announce that coffee is a death trap.)

Why not fresh fruit, cheese, and juice, water, or milk? Considering that 63% of people, including children, in the U.S. are overweight or obese, wouldn’t this be a more hospitable thing to serve? And it’s not that much more expensive, is it?

Oh my gosh - are you going to request that our church authorities tell us all to go to sleep before 9pm at night as well, I suppose? I mean most of us are chronically sleep-deprived which is also a big contributing factor to various health problems.

The Church is a guide, but not a nanny as you seem to want it to be.

It follows the example of Christ Himself - who made, let us not forget, ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY GALLONS of wine, for a wedding party crowd who had already drunk the place dry (meaning they had drunk plenty already).

Were there alcoholics among them? Most certainly. Did some proceed to abuse the alcohol He provided? Again, most certainly they would have.

Did He refuse to provide alcohol because some would abuse it? Not a bit. Is He even recorded as wagging His finger at anyone there about their drinking? Not in the least.

He instead, rightly, treated the wedding guests as adults with free will, who were both capable of and responsible for making their own choices in regard to alcohol, be they sensible or otherwise. Why should the Church not do the same?

 

[graceandglory]

Who will disagree with that?

Yet is that your accusation? regarding posters here? regarding the Church?

For heaven’s sake, YOUR issue is not EVERYONE’S issue. It’s that simple.

So since it’s my issue, to hell with me, right?

 

[catharina]

So since it’s my issue, to hell with me, right?

That’s quite an uncharitable leap. It deserves no responsive answer and will get none from me.

 

[ruslan]

I thought we were talking about *“Beef, Beer and Catholic fundraisers”? *

BTW-I am an expert on drunkedness and the problems it causes-I did years of first hand research on it.

The word is drunkenness, not drunkedness.

I have been very deliberate to not blame the Church. I always separate the Church from the individuals who are beligerant and callous in their disrespect for the souls of others.

The word is belligerent, not beligerant. (This is said with a great deal of charity).

As for the OP’s question. I don’t know of many Catholic parishes (if any) that don’t have beer or some type of alcohol at their fundraisers.

 

[JRKH]

TO ALL POSTING ON THIS THREAD

Some things have been said that should not have been.

Some feelings hurt and issues clouded by anger.

Nothing good comes from these types of posts

Let us ALL step back - Breathe Deep and then go on.

As for my self, I apologize to anyone whom I may have upset by my comments. I can only say that sometimes the smart-alec nature gets the better of me.

Mea Culpa.

Peace
James

 

[t68ware]

I agree with James…as the OP, I think it is time to close this post. Discussions got way out of hand and this post drifted way beyond my question. Things were said on this posting I think should not have been said. I am not sure if a Moderator only has the power to close a post, and if so, I will ask that this one be closed. I am sorry such a simple question I asked escalated into this.

 

[BradW]

Don’t be sorry. It was very enlightening as to not only the question, but people’s motives and attitudes as well. Obviously, it’s NOT a simple issue. Having or not having beer is a BIG issue to many people, and it’s better to understand that than ignore it.

 

[Cat]

I agree with James…as the OP, I think it is time to close this post. Discussions got way out of hand and this post drifted way beyond my question. Things were said on this posting I think should not have been said. I am not sure if a Moderator only has the power to close a post, and if so, I will ask that this one be closed. I am sorry such a simple question I asked escalated into this.

That’s what always happens on the Catholic alcohol threads. They get closed.

Why?

 

[Cat]

I think some of you have the wrong idea of what I mean when I say, “I don’t associate with those who drink alcohol.”

Forgive me for not clarifying.

I do NOT snub those who drink or stick my nose up in the air, or sigh and close my eyes and shake my head around them, or refuse to sit next to them at Mass, or refuse to attend Bible studies and Catholic conferences and benedictions and adoration with them I do not refuse to play the piano for them.

I don’t do any of these things. I have the impression that some of you think I do these things. Well, I don’t.

I am very friendly with people in a setting where there is no eating or drinking.

People like me. And I like them.

I attend dinners, picnics, luncheons, etc. with small groups of people–my Catholic Bible Fellowship group (all women), my Why Catholic group (mixed ages, sexes, marital statuses), the RCIA class (which I no longer help with, but my husband helps with, so I get invited to their fellowships), my friends who have special occasions (retirements, birthday parties, etc.)

I never say a word about alcohol. I swear to God. Never a word and never a look either.

The ONLY time it comes up is when someone offers me a drink of alcohol and I say politely–I swear I say it politely with no hint of snottiness or “Protestant uppityness”–“No, thank you, but I will have a soda. please.”

A few times, I have been challenged by someone, who says, “Hey, you’re not Protestant anymore. It’s OK to drink now.”

Again, I say, “No thank you” politely. I swear, no attitude from me.

And at least twice, the challenge has continued, as someone says, “You know, it’s not a sin.”

At this point, I get a little upset–just a little, I swear–and I say, “I agree, it’s not a sin, but I choose not to drink alcohol for non-religious reasons. My choice has nothing to do with whether it’s a sin or not.”

When I say, “I don’t associate with people who drink,” perhaps what I should have said instead is that I don’t go out with people who specifically to go out to “drink” and where alcohol is a featured “attraction.”

I don’t think this is very much fun for non-drinkers, to sit in a bar or at a festival with a lot of people who are drinking and getting jolly (not drunk). Usually bar cokes are horribly expensive, watered down, and flat, and they don’t give free re-fills. So why on earth would I want to sit there and…I don’t even know what to do in that setting! I totally don’t fit in. I’m like Debbie Downer–while everyone else is whooping it up, I’m looking around for someone who will hold a serious conversation with me. And I don’t find those people in drinking settings.

I know I can’t begin to convey to you how awkward it feels to be a non-drinker in a setting where everyone else is drinking. BradW expressed it pretty well when he described his experience at his parish gold outing. You feel like a dweeb. Like you should just go home and let everyone else continue the party.

You think we teetotallers LIKE feeling this way? NO, we do not. It’s like being the wallflower at a prom. It’s like being the guy in the wheelchair at a marathon–sure, everyone’s nice and there are events for wheelchair racers, but the fact is, you’re still sitting in a wheelchair while most other people aren’t. You’re DIFFERENT than other people, and there’s nothing you can do about. Just like the guy in the wheelchair can’t make himself get up and walk, non-drinkers can’t make themselves like something that smells like cat pee to them.

 

[estesbob]

That’s what always happens on the Catholic alcohol threads. They get closed.

Why?

In my opinion two factors are at work.

Converts who were raised in a alchohol is evil enviroment have a very hard time accepting the casual acceptance of alchohol in the Church.

Cradle Catholics, having spent a life time of being regularly attacked for alleged deukneness and debauchery of our Faith ,overeact when the subject is broached by converts . We generally can work up no empathy whatsoever for their concerns.

Perhaps we should all take a deep breath and acknowledge that both sides have a vaild point.