Beef, Beer and Catholic fundraisers

[ibkc]

People like me. And I like them.

I attend dinners, picnics, luncheons, etc. with small groups of people–my Catholic Bible Fellowship group (all women), my Why Catholic group (mixed ages, sexes, marital statuses), the RCIA class (which I no longer help with, but my husband helps with, so I get invited to their fellowships), my friends who have special occasions (retirements, birthday parties, etc.)

… ]

When I say, “I don’t associate with people who drink,” perhaps what I should have said instead is that I don’t go out with people who specifically to go out to “drink” and where alcohol is a featured “attraction.”

Cat, your very first post on the thread stated this:
It is really sad since we converted to Catholicism. At least in the evangelical Protestant church, almost everyone else abstained, and so we had a lot of friends and often got together for dinners, picnics, or just going out for a Coke or ice cream with church pals. Now all those church pals don’t associate with “Catholics” like us. But many of the Catholics that we know consider a social “unsociable” if there is no liquor.

So we are alone a lot. It’s really fun to live in this beautiful Catholic castle and wander around alone, but to be honest, we won’t change our abstinent ways. I would rather be alone than associate with those who label me “Protestant” because I choose not to use the drug of alcohol.
Can you see where some of us got the (wrong) idea that you don’t want to associate at all with anyone who drinks, and that you are alone and unhappy since converting? Also, the above came off (to me, anyway) as saying that all Catholic functions feature rampant alcohol use. I suppose you were just writing rhetorically, and I am glad the issue isn’t so horrible as your first post indicated.

 

[JRKH]

(Snip)

When I say, “I don’t associate with people who drink,” perhaps what I should have said instead is that I don’t go out with people who specifically to go out to “drink” and where alcohol is a featured “attraction.”

 

[cecilia97]

I will just throw in my 2c here.
As I was growing up, I was exposed to drinking. In fact when littleI could crawl up on my mom or dad’s lap and take sip from their bottle if I wanted. I realize that such behavior could get you arrested today, but I am here to say that it had no adverse effect on us kids at all. My entire extended family was raised that way and, so far as I know, there isn’t an abuser among any of them. It isn’t to say that, as teens, we didn’t go out and get “stinkin’” at least once, but hey, whether your folks are teatotalers or not, kids will be kids.
There were five of us Kids, and Momand dad would have two or so beers per person per night. None of us kids drink even that much on a regular basis. I keep some around in the summer because it’s good right after mowing the grass, or during a ball game.
My point I guess is that we were exposed to drinking beer, and it was never treated as a big thing either good or bad. Consequently it doesn’t have much effect on my psychy either. Often times it is the “Thing forbidden” that holds the greatest attraction for the young.

Peace
James

I agree. I grew up having a glass of wine now and then, and my parents allowed us to drink beer at home starting at about age 16. It was just not a big deal and I did not sit around the house drunk, EVER!

When I went to college, it was the girls from teetotalling families that I saw getting ripping drunk and taking their clothes off in public.

There’s also such a thing as a “dry drunk”. Someone who avoids all alcohol but has the psychology of alcoholism just the same, sometimes from childhood experiences with alcoholic parents. I know at least one such person. The presence of a glass of wine in the room affects her VISIBLY. If an object or substance has such a hold over you, there’s an issue…wether you drink it or not.

Moderation in all things. Except gardening.

 

[cecilia97]

It is amazing how this post took on a life of its own. I just wanted to know how Catholic Churches can host these events without being seen as hypocrites, and I have received my answer(s). It was not to debate if drinking is sinful or not, and it certainly was not meant for others to feel attacked. I think there has been enough said on this topic.

The Church would be hypocritical if it said “drinking is sinful” and then hosted a Beef and Beer fund raiser. But since the Church says no such thing, I don’t see how anyone could claim it is hypocrisy.

Since wine is in our liturgy, it’s pretty clear the Church does not teach that drinking is sinful.

As a Catholic, I have no problem with other faiths that teach that drinking is sinful. I believe they’re wrong, but I don’t care if they want to abstain.

I would, however, have to draw the line at someone insisting I abstain because of their religious beliefs.

 

[graceandglory]

That’s quite an uncharitable leap. It deserves no responsive answer and will get none from me.

No it’s not. Whether you intend to or not, that is the message you are sending. You ARE coming across as if you do not care about people’s souls. To me that’s always the bottom line. If it brings people to Christ do it, if it turns people away, STOP IT, for Heaven’s Sake! I get the feeling, that if it means you are going to have to give something up for the sake of winning a few souls, you’re not willing to make the sacrifice.

Just because you’ve always had beef and brewfests (or at least for 30 yrs—doesn’t mean it’s right, and doesn’t mean it has to continue.) It doesn’t make sense when it is our mission to evangelize people.

The point is: IF Catholics know that something they are doing which isn’t a part of their religion, just a favorite pastime, is keeping people from converting, WHY are we still doing it?

Do you care that people leave the church to avoid seeing their fellow parishioners drunk?

Can you say something to me on behalf of the Catholics I saw drunk who totally turned me off of being Catholic when I was a teenager because of their bad witness?

 

[ethelzguy]

Can you say something to me on behalf of the Catholics I saw drunk who totally turned me off of being Catholic when I was a teenager because of their bad witness?

Yes, I think you’re throwing away the baby with the bath water.

There is far more to Catholicism than it’s position on alcohol, one way or the other.

 

[graceandglory]

Don’t be sorry. It was very enlightening as to not only the question, but people’s motives and attitudes as well. Obviously, it’s NOT a simple issue. Having or not having beer is a BIG issue to many people, and it’s better to understand that than ignore it.

Why close the post? This is am important discussion that EVERY parish council should be having.

Why do we continue doing something that our protestant brethren says is offensive to them and turns them off from seeking the Truth which is only found in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?

Why???

St. Paul said that he would even deliver his body to be burned in hell if it would perchance save some people.

1 Corinthians 9:7*** Although I am free in regard to all, I have made myself a slave to all so as to win over as many as possible.***

1 Corinthians 8:9
"Beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak."

 

[ethelzguy]

Why close the post? This is am important discussion that EVERY parish council should be having.

Why do we continue doing something that our protestant brethren says is offensive to them and turns them off from seeking the Truth which is only found in the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church?

Why???

St. Paul said that he would even deliver his body to be burned in hell if it would perchance save some people.

1 Corinthians 9:7*** Although I am free in regard to all, I have made myself a slave to all so as to win over as many as possible.***

1 Corinthians 8:9
"Beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak."

Using alcohol to avoid the One True Church is nothing but an excuse and a cop out. So they claim to be tee-totalers. What good is that, when their faith is flawed in so many other ways…ways that seperate them from the One True Church?

 

[graceandglory]

Yes, I think you’re throwing away the baby with the bath water.

There is far more to Catholicism than it’s position on alcohol, one way or the other.

Ethelzguy,

I am a committed Catholic today. I lost 20 years of being Catholic and it was the drunks that turned me off. I can’t describe in words how I felt to see my Catholic classmates, friends, and parishioners drunk. The fact is I did leave as a teenager to be with more pious people. If you want to say “I threw the baby out with the bath water” that really minimizes what to me is the most GIGANTIC mistake I made in my entire life.

Scripture does say that we are not to be a stumbling block, and the Catechism is clear in its definition of the sin of causing scandal.

Once again, it is totally within our freedom to drink alcohol and to enjoy it. That’s not my beef. It is promoting it as a parish event like a brewfest that I think should not be done. It causes scandal, period. You don’t think it matters that the brewfests cause scandal and keeps real honest to goodness Christian people away from the Catholic Church, I do. I believe Scripture and Catechism backs up my opinion, and not yours.

 

[ethelzguy]

I believe Scripture and Catechism backs up my opinion, and not yours.

Ah, but Catholic tradition (not to mention the wedding feast at Cana scripture) backs up mine.

I hardly think that Christ would have chosen a “stumbling block” for his first miracle at the behest of the Virgin Mary.

 

[graceandglory]

Ah, but Catholic tradition (not to mention the wedding feast at Cana scripture) backs up mine.

I hardly think that Christ would have chosen a “stumbling block” for his first miracle at the behest of the Virgin Mary.

You know, I’m finished with this. You can go on thinking you’re so smart. Brewfests aren’t a part of the Magisterium.

Comparing wine at a Marriage is not the same, AT ALL.:nope:

 

[Cat]

Using alcohol to avoid the One True Church is nothing but an excuse and a cop out. So they claim to be tee-totalers. What good is that, when their faith is flawed in so many other ways…ways that seperate them from the One True Church?

ethelzguy, I’m really surprised to see you, of all people, speak this way. Usually you are quite reasonable.

I will try to find time this weekend to address this more. I’m sorry I don’t have time right now.

Apparently I and the few others here have failed to help you and others to understand, although I see that a few people are starting to get it.

You speak as though it is the Protestants’ fault that they have faulty theology, as though they are stubbornly choosing to believe the wrong things about God.

That’s not true at all. The reason they have faulty theology is that it’s all they know.

And one of the reasons that they don’t know any Catholic theology is that they don’t know any Catholics as intimate friends and therefore, they haven’t developed “trust” in any Catholics.

And one of the reasons that they don’t know any Catholics as friends is that they don’t drink, and therefore, they FEEL excluded from many of the Catholic social activities.

As I have tried to describe, many non-drinkers feel very uncomfortable and left-out when there is drinking. You can condemn them if you wish, but that won’t change them. It’s the way they’ve been raised, often for many generations. They don’t know what to do in a situation where people are drinking for enjoyment, not just to wash down their dinner. Drinking is not part of their culture. In many cases, it is even offensive to them.

And so the Protestant non-drinker tends to stick with like-minded people who also do not drink. And this, of course, means that they will never have the opportunity to get to know and trust Catholics intimately, and that means that they will probably never ask, “So, what really do you believe as a Catholic?”

Obviously most Catholics won’t give up drink. But I would at least like to see Catholics become more sensitive to the cultural chasm that separates them from the non-drinking Christians. There are practical applications to this sensitivity. If a parish RCIA director becomes aware that there are abstinent Christians in the group, perhaps the other abstinent converts in the parish can be enlisted to help ease the newbies into the parish. They’ll know how to handle these non-drinkers–no jokes about lakes of beer and the 120 gallons at Cana. They will know how to be sociable with tee-totallers because they are there.

It’s just common sense and hospitality! If you are having a party, and two figure skaters are invited, you introduce them to each other and seat them next to each other at dinner, don’t you? You probably don’t seat the figure skater next to the bruised and battered rugby player, right? You try to think about the other person and what will make them feel most comfortable at your party.

That’s what I’m asking of parishes–consider the abstinent ones and ask, “How can we help these people find a place to fit in in our family? Who can we send their way to socialize with? What activities would make them feel comfortable–let’s make sure they are invited specially to these.”

It’s just being nice.

I’ll think on this subject more, and I hope many of you will do the same.

 

[JRKH]

It seems to me that those for whom this is an important issue should be bringing these things up in their parishes. We certainly cannot resolve anything here.
After All I’m in Ohio, the OP is in Pennsylvania and the rest of us are scattered who knows where.
Grace was turned off by “Drunks” in her parish. Was this a local or reginal phenomena? I have no way of knowing.
I have been to many festivals, wedding receptions etc, and never seen what she describes. Is that also a local or reginal phenomena? Again I have no way of knowing.

Would Parishes in OH and PA be unwilling to give up their beer while parishes in FL and CA be perfectly happy to give up the beer? You’d have to ask them.

As far as the beer preventing a non-catholic from considering catholicism I can only say that the Church will not likely forbid akcohol, so even if parishes cut down or eliminated beer from events, those coming in would still have to deal with drinking being permisable.
As I said earlier, if it were a circumstance where I was speaking one on one with someone, I certainly wouldn’t plop down with a beer in front of them if I knew that disturbed them.
There are any number of reasons why people choose not to consider the Church. The thing is that we must help them get by whatever obstacles there are. If alcohol is one of those obstacles we just have to work with them on recognizing that it is permissable, but not mandatory.

Peace
James

 

[AHapka]

In fact when littleI could crawl up on my mom or dad’s lap and take sip from their bottle if I wanted. I realize that such behavior could get you arrested today,

How would that get you arrested since you can legally drink with your parents in Ohio? Just curious if there is something you are leaving out or not telling us?

In all but 15 states there is at least one exception to the underage drinking law.

 

[LilyM]

It’s just common sense and hospitality! If you are having a party, and two figure skaters are invited, you introduce them to each other and seat them next to each other at dinner, don’t you? You probably don’t seat the figure skater next to the bruised and battered rugby player, right? You try to think about the other person and what will make them feel most comfortable at your party.

That’s what I’m asking of parishes–consider the abstinent ones and ask, “How can we help these people find a place to fit in in our family? Who can we send their way to socialize with? What activities would make them feel comfortable–let’s make sure they are invited specially to these.”

It’s just being nice.

I’ll think on this subject more, and I hope many of you will do the same.

How is any of this anyone’s responsibility but yours? I mean figureskaters don’t walk around with signs over their head stating that they are figureskaters, so yes, a good hostess will look to introduce people to others of compatible interests. But that’s a different thing entirely.

As someone who rarely drinks myself, even when other people are drinking, I have two functioning eyes and am perfectly capable of seeing for myself who’s drinking and who isn’t at a function. Surely you can do the same. And then since you think drinkers are such total deadlosses as companions (I happen not to), you can stick with the teetotallers.

 

[JRKH]

How would that get you arrested since you can legally drink with your parents in Ohio? Just curious if there is something you are leaving out or not telling us?

In all but 15 states there is at least one exception to the underage drinking law.

I didn’t know that? I wonder if the same was true in 1958 when I was 3 years old?

Peace
James

 

[AHapka]

Just in case anyone else is curious as to exceptions in their own state:

alcoholpolicy.niaaa.nih.gov/stateprofiles/

 

[Angela_Tate]

**MODERATOR NOTE:
**The primary purpose of parish fundraisers is to help parishes and schools stay open and thus are geared toward the parish community and guests, not to reach out to non-Catholics in an effort to convert them. Thus, this thread has been moved from Evangelization because the underlying topic is more about the Catholic position on Alcohol in general, and particularly in relation to alcoholism and scandal. Having been asked by the original poster to close the thread in Evangelization I have opted to move it here instead so that the discussion/debate could continue.

 

[Phemie]

My husband and I have done a lot of thinking about why we don’t have a huge list of friends and why we don’t socialize a lot. We’ve come to the conclusion that it’s mainly because of alcohol.

It is really sad since we converted to Catholicism. At least in the evangelical Protestant church, almost everyone else abstained, and so we had a lot of friends and often got together for dinners, picnics, or just going out for a Coke or ice cream with church pals. Now all those church pals don’t associate with “Catholics” like us. But many of the Catholics that we know consider a social “unsociable” if there is no liquor.

So we are alone a lot. It’s really fun to live in this beautiful Catholic castle and wander around alone, but to be honest, we won’t change our abstinent ways. I would rather be alone than associate with those who label me “Protestant” because I choose not to use the drug of alcohol.

I guess that’s why there’s an Internet, right?

I don’t get this. I can go to a party and not have a drink, my friends never question it. It’s not that I don’t drink alcohol – I’m quite fond of Guinness and Leffe along with various wines – but my friends know that if I’m driving I never touch the stuff.

It doesn’t even stop me from going to pubs to hear the live entertainment and have fun with my friends, I just drink Tonic all night. No big deal.

Growing up, I remember my dad being mortified if he didn’t have a bottle of rum or rye to put on the table for guests. In my home they would more likely be offered tea or coffee or juice.

I have to say that we don’t have alcohol at our church events only because you have to jump through too many hoops to get a licence. We checked out what we needed to have a licence to serve (not sell) a sample of Peruvian liquor when we had a parish fund raising Peruvian dinner and discovered that the space we were using would preclude us from getting one. As for bringing your own beer or wine to this type of fund raiser it would be considered drinking in public and cause for arrest and fine.

 

[wabrams]

Let me ask you something–if it were possible for you to lead a soul back to the Catholic Church–but the condition is abstinence from alcohol–would you be willing?

Would you be willing to do the opposite?

Or would you be willing to justify abortion in extreme situations (ectopic pregnancy, rape, molestation) if that was the only stumbling block for a Protestant to join the Church? What about birth control? Or shorts in Mass?