Beef, Beer and Catholic fundraisers

[Cat]

I think it might be worthwhile posting that since this thread started and I decided to take a chance and post my very unpopular opinions, I’ve received several PMs from others who tell me, “THANK YOU so much for posting! That’s exactly the way I feel about alcohol.”

So I am not a fringe nutcase. There are more of us who have negative feelings about alcohol than you think. Now if we can just find each other, right?!

At least one of these PMs was from someone who is investigating the Catholic Church, and like me and my husband, their “stumbling block” is alcohol

All I ask is that you not just dismiss us or our ideas, and that you try to be nice to us. This is a really hard issue for many, even though some of you seem to think we should just “change our thinking.”

Believe it or not, I actually consider myself a liberal to moderate evangelical (former) when it comes to alcohol. I will go into a restaurant that serves liquor, and I will allow magazines and newspapers with liquor ads to come into my home, and I will watch and laugh at liquor ads on TV. There are some evangelicals who won’t go into a restaurant or a GROCERY STORE that sells alcohol (we have one grocery chain in our city that is alcohol-free and I try to shop there as much as I can). And there are those who won’t allow any hint of alcohol (ads, TV, etc.) in their home.

And as some of you have testified, there are evangelicals (and fundamentalists) who are so conservative that they won’t have anything to do with people who drink. It’s their problem? Yes, of course. But it becomes YOUR problem when you hear the Lord telling you, “I want that person to come home to the Catholic Church and I want YOU to help them.” How will you deal with this person? Will you be kind, or will you tell them that heaven is like a big bar and they may as well get used to it now. Honestly now, what good will that kind of talk do? Will that kind of talk really help the struggler to open up their heart and mind to the Catholic Church? I don’t think so.

I appreciate some of the kindness and sweet attitudes of some of the responses on this thread. That kind of talk IS helpful and reassuring to me and I think it would be helpful to others who are trying to decide whether to give Catholicism a look.

At this point, my basic conclusion is that I should live and let live. I don’t have to go to church picnics or BB nights to be fulfilled.

 

[catharina]

I think it might be worthwhile posting that since this thread started and I decided to take a chance and post my very unpopular opinions, I’ve received several PMs from others who tell me, “THANK YOU so much for posting! That’s exactly the way I feel about alcohol.”

So I am not a fringe nutcase. There are more of us who have negative feelings about alcohol than you think. Now if we can just find each other, right?!

At least one of these PMs was from someone who is investigating the Catholic Church, and like me and my husband, their “stumbling block” is alcohol

All I ask is that you not just dismiss us or our ideas, and that you try to be nice to us. This is a really hard issue for many, even though some of you seem to think we should just “change our thinking.”

Believe it or not, I actually consider myself a liberal to moderate evangelical (former) when it comes to alcohol. I will go into a restaurant that serves liquor, and I will allow magazines and newspapers with liquor ads to come into my home, and I will watch and laugh at liquor ads on TV. There are some evangelicals who won’t go into a restaurant or a GROCERY STORE that sells alcohol (we have one grocery chain in our city that is alcohol-free and I try to shop there as much as I can). And there are those who won’t allow any hint of alcohol (ads, TV, etc.) in their home.

And as some of you have testified, there are evangelicals (and fundamentalists) who are so conservative that they won’t have anything to do with people who drink. It’s their problem? Yes, of course. But it becomes YOUR problem when you hear the Lord telling you, “I want that person to come home to the Catholic Church and I want YOU to help them.” How will you deal with this person? Will you be kind, or will you tell them that heaven is like a big bar and they may as well get used to it now. Honestly now, what good will that kind of talk do? Will that kind of talk really help the struggler to open up their heart and mind to the Catholic Church? I don’t think so.

I appreciate some of the kindness and sweet attitudes of some of the responses on this thread. That kind of talk IS helpful and reassuring to me and I think it would be helpful to others who are trying to decide whether to give Catholicism a look.

At this point, my basic conclusion is that I should live and let live. I don’t have to go to church picnics or BB nights to be fulfilled.

I do understand your point. I think many of us do.

When one questions the use of alcohol allowed in the Church, however, one must be aware that one might be seen as treading on sacred ground since, in fact, the Eucharist Itself is dependent on the consecration of bread and WINE. If you don’t see that the questioning could be troubling, then maybe you can consider it in that framework. It’s subtle but certainly “there.”

 

[JRKH]

I think it might be worthwhile posting that since this thread started and I decided to take a chance and post my very unpopular opinions, I’ve received several PMs from others who tell me, “THANK YOU so much for posting! That’s exactly the way I feel about alcohol.”

So I am not a fringe nutcase. There are more of us who have negative feelings about alcohol than you think. Now if we can just find each other, right?!

At least one of these PMs was from someone who is investigating the Catholic Church, and like me and my husband, their “stumbling block” is alcohol

All I ask is that you not just dismiss us or our ideas, and that you try to be nice to us. This is a really hard issue for many, even though some of you seem to think we should just “change our thinking.”

Believe it or not, I actually consider myself a liberal to moderate evangelical (former) when it comes to alcohol. I will go into a restaurant that serves liquor, and I will allow magazines and newspapers with liquor ads to come into my home, and I will watch and laugh at liquor ads on TV. There are some evangelicals who won’t go into a restaurant or a GROCERY STORE that sells alcohol (we have one grocery chain in our city that is alcohol-free and I try to shop there as much as I can). And there are those who won’t allow any hint of alcohol (ads, TV, etc.) in their home.

And as some of you have testified, there are evangelicals (and fundamentalists) who are so conservative that they won’t have anything to do with people who drink. It’s their problem? Yes, of course. But it becomes YOUR problem when you hear the Lord telling you, “I want that person to come home to the Catholic Church and I want YOU to help them.” How will you deal with this person? Will you be kind, or will you tell them that heaven is like a big bar and they may as well get used to it now. Honestly now, what good will that kind of talk do? Will that kind of talk really help the struggler to open up their heart and mind to the Catholic Church? I don’t think so.

I appreciate some of the kindness and sweet attitudes of some of the responses on this thread. That kind of talk IS helpful and reassuring to me and I think it would be helpful to others who are trying to decide whether to give Catholicism a look.

At this point, my basic conclusion is that I should live and let live. I don’t have to go to church picnics or BB nights to be fulfilled.

Cat,
Did you note my post number 133 where I indicated that these issues really need to be addressed with your parish? You obviously have a unique perspective having come from the evangelical background and perhaps your parish can benefit from it.
I’m not saying that they will stop serving alcohol, but it certainly could raise awareness of the issue and how it can be a stumbling block for some people. Who knows, maybe there can be some events without alcohol.

Peace
James

 

[t68ware]

Ok…let me have a stab at this. I am Protestant, and there are a few denominations that believe drinking is wrong, not because it is sinful in and of itself, but it is a possible stumbling block. Paul teaches that if his freedom causes a brother or sister to stumble, he will not do that certain act. (As you know, this was his argument when it came to eating meat dedicated to idols). Adult beverages are not sinful… getting drunk is sinful, but the actual consumption of adult beverages is not sinful. However, if it causes others to question your faith, you have two options. One is to only drink when you know nobody is watching or Second, if you do drink and somebody questions you, this is a great chance to discuss drinking and what the Church teaches. From a Protestant point of view, the Bible does not teach adult beverages to be evil or sinful, just getting drunk is sinful. While my denomination teaches no drinking, they do so not from a Scriptual point of view but from a “How does it look to nonbelievers?” point of view.

 

[ethelzguy]

While my denomination teaches no drinking, they do so not from a Scriptual point of view but from a “How does it look to nonbelievers?” point of view.

How did it look to non-believers when Jesue turned the water into wine?

I truly believe that the protestant aversion to alcohol is an offshoot of protestantism itself. Look for things that Catholics do, and find a reason to declare them sinful or wrong…“wow, they drink alcohol and pray to statues…oh, the scandal!”

 

[graceandglory]

. From a Protestant point of view, the Bible does not teach adult beverages to be evil or sinful, just getting drunk is sinful. While my denomination teaches no drinking, they do so not from a Scriptual point of view but from a “How does it look to nonbelievers?” point of view.

My background too. (Calvary Chapel). The pastor is clear that it is not a sin to drink alcohol, but out of love we choose temperance to not be a stumbling block to “those who are weak.”

"Beware lest somehow this liberty of yours ** (we are free to drink alcohol) ** become a stumbling block to those who are weak."(those who see it as a sin issue)
1 Corinthians 8:9

(This is the heart of Catholic teaching about the sin of causing scandal)

If Jesus says to “Beware”, and the Church calls scandal a sin, shouldn’t that cause us to pause and consider how our behavior affects others?

I have freedom to drink alcohol. Out of love for my fellow Christians, I choose not to drink around them, or proudly announce my “freedom.”

 

[graceandglory]

How did it look to non-believers when Jesue turned the water into wine?

I truly believe that the protestant aversion to alcohol is an offshoot of protestantism itself. Look for things that Catholics do, and find a reason to declare them sinful or wrong…“wow, they drink alcohol and pray to statues…oh, the scandal!”

Ethelsguy, you can say you believe that, but right here in this thread you have real former protestants who are telling you that’s not the case. It is a holiness issue. It is about Christian virtue. There are holy protestants. They are our “separated brethren” according to Catholic teaching.

 

[LilyM]

Ethelsguy, you can say you believe that, but right here in this thread you have real former protestants who are telling you that’s not the case. It is a holiness issue. It is about Christian virtue. There are holy protestants. They are our “separated brethren” according to Catholic teaching.

To me they sound a bit more like ‘holier-than-thou’ Protestants. In fact they sound like they would fit in quite well with those pharisees who called Jesus a glutton and drunkard simply because He didn’t fast continually and wasn’t a teetotaller like John the Baptist. In fact didn’t Jesus regularly scandalise people - by dining with tax collectors and sinners? By allowing a ritually unclean bleeding woman to touch Him without telling her off? By talking to a Samaritan woman no less?

And those of us who are nowhere near abusing alcohol have every right to ignore the bellyaching of the overly sensitive just as Jesus did. Was he somehow unloving when He gave them a serve for their overly critical attitude and kept right on drinking?

 

[BradW]

At Parish functions where beer is served, do they also serve soda’s? I’m sure the answer there is yes,

Don’t be so sure. Read the story of my golf outing. They did NOT serve sodas. There’s your counterexample. The answer, sometimes, is NO, there is no accomodation for the non-drinker.

 

[Cat]

Cat,
Did you note my post number 133 where I indicated that these issues really need to be addressed with your parish? You obviously have a unique perspective having come from the evangelical background and perhaps your parish can benefit from it.
I’m not saying that they will stop serving alcohol, but it certainly could raise awareness of the issue and how it can be a stumbling block for some people. Who knows, maybe there can be some events without alcohol.

Peace
James

Yes, I liked that post. Thank you. Lots of good ideas. I am going to look for opportunities to speak up, but I feel the need to be careful since I am one of the “new kids on the block” in a 2000 year-old Church.

I also think that a lot of the “problem” is mine, not the church’s. Like I said, I probably will simply yield to my personality, which is not outgoing and “party” and “jolly” and "listening to music,"etc. To me, a silent retreat sounds like a great time, and maybe that’s the kind of “social” that I will stick with in the future. (Catholic Family Conference is coming to Elgin in a few weeks–my husband and I will be there!)

One thing that has made a difference at our parish is that a few years ago, our pastor had to spend several months in rehab for alcoholism. Since then, I think that the planners of socials have been careful to include non-alcoholic options, and to de-emphasize the alcohol availability at various church events. I think that his alcoholism has really made a lot of parishioners think harder about their own relationship with alcohol.

I LOVE our pastor because he is now “one of us!” He jokes about it, but to him, it’s very strange not to drink. But to us, it’s not strange at all. So I hope that we help and encourage him just a little.

I think also that our parish is well aware that it is smack dab in the middle of some extremely successful evangelical churches here in the Midwest including a megachurch that attracts 10,000 people every Sunday. (That’s ten-thousand bodies in the pews–I should say, in the chairs around the tables sipping latte!)–every Sunday.

We’re also within driving distance of Willowcreek.

So there’s a lot of competition for Christians in our neck of the woods.

I think that our parish is beginning to get wise and “compete” just a little with these giganto churches (which take many of our Catholics, BTW) by de-emphasizing–not eliminating—but de-emphasizing the beer and wine at the church festivals. We don’t see it on the festival PR signs outside the church anymore.

Earlier in this thread, one of the mods posted that historically, Catholic church parish events like this were not meant to evangelize, but to raise funds for the schools, etc. I cannot argue with history, but I must object just a little. Whether an event is meant to be “evangelistic” or not, whenever the Catholic Church steps outside of its doors and is visible to the public, it is “on display” to a watching world, including other non-Catholic Christians.

Most of the time, the Catholic Church does a fantastic job of being salt and light to the world. We do a lot of charitable things in our communities and in our world. We’re there in diasters, famines, wars, poverty, and crime-ridden neighborhoods. Anyone who looks at the Catholic Church in the world can see Jesus at work in us.

A festival featuring alcohol will send out a message to a watching world. I agree that to many, the message will simply be, “You can have a lot of fun here at St. So and So’s Catholic Church!”

But to others (like me) the message is not one of “fun.” I am always glad to see places that serve alcohol enforce rules that make the alcohol use safe for everyone, especially for those who will be driving. I’ve worked at fundraising concerts for skating before where the alcohol consumption of individuals is monitored so that it’s hard for people to consume too much–that’s GOOD. And I like seeing the signs all over that say, “Drink responsibly” and “Don’t drink and drive.”

I think churches should out-do the secular venues in demonstrating responsibility and concern for people whenever alcohol is available. THIS will send a good message to a watching world.

 

[estesbob]

Don’t be so sure. Read the story of my golf outing. They did NOT serve sodas. There’s your counterexample. The answer, sometimes, is NO, there is no accomodation for the non-drinker.

I have not had a drink in 23 years and have never run into a situation where I couldnt find something non-alchoholic to drink. At the golf outong in question i am sure there were a multitude of vending machines, snackbars etc to fulfiil everyones driniking desire. Of course I guess the people who planned this outing could have been terribly inept but that would be the exception, not the norm.

I find is condescending and almost insulting that someone would prohibit alchohol for fear of “tempting” or offendingthose of us dont drink.

 

[JRKH]

Don’t be so sure. Read the story of my golf outing. They did NOT serve sodas. There’s your counterexample. The answer, sometimes, is NO, there is no accomodation for the non-drinker.

I guess the next question would be did you discuss this with the organizers?

Peace
James

 

[BradW]

Can anyone else offer a list (even from memory) of items at their festivals?

Once again, I’ll offer the golf outing. Mind you, this was the FIRST official parish-wide social event I went to, before I was even in RCIA. So maybe I somehow I hit the one, only, never before and never again event where this happened; but it sure made an impression, nonetheless. At that moment, it was all I knew of how a Catholic parish ran their social events.

List was something like,
Beer.
Wine.
Liquor (for mixed drinks).
Coke syrup (no carbonation).

Sorry I can’t be more specific, I really wasn’t interested in remembering an inventory of things I didn’t drink.

Note what reasonable things are NOT on that list:
Soda (cans, bottles, fountain)
Lemonade (my personal favorite after being outside on a hot day)
Water
Iced tea

There, I offered what people apparently assumed was impossible. Now what?

 

[JMBNH]

In the UK 95% of evangelicals drink alcohol in my experience and go to pubs for a lot of their events, even the most conservative one in my area actually hires out a pub once a month for an evangelistic talk. So it’s not actually an evangelical thing but an american thing.

There are Catholics at my Church who don’t drink and happily sit in our Church bar talking to other people there and in fact the fact that we have a bar at Church actually gets Anglicans coming in and talking to Catholics while drinking at the bar and often this leads to discussions and us telling them about Catholicism

 

[JRKH]

Once again, I’ll offer the golf outing. Mind you, this was the FIRST official parish-wide social event I went to, before I was even in RCIA. So maybe I somehow I hit the one, only, never before and never again event where this happened; but it sure made an impression, nonetheless. At that moment, it was all I knew of how a Catholic parish ran their social events.

List was something like,
Beer.
Wine.
Liquor (for mixed drinks).
Coke syrup (no carbonation).

Sorry I can’t be more specific, I really wasn’t interested in remembering an inventory of things I didn’t drink.

Note what reasonable things are NOT on that list:
Soda (cans, bottles, fountain)
Lemonade (my personal favorite after being outside on a hot day)
Water
Iced tea

There, I offered what people apparently assumed was impossible. Now what?

Not to make light of the situation, but I would spring for a few bucks and bring my own stuff.
Also I wouldn’t let it rest. The best bet would be to volunteer to serve on the oragnizing committee of some events and by so doing you can make sure that choices are sufficiently incluseive.

Peace
James

 

[BradW]

I have not had a drink in 23 years and have never run into a situation where I couldnt find something non-alchoholic to drink. At the golf outong in question i am sure there were a multitude of vending machines, snackbars etc to fulfiil everyones driniking desire. Of course I guess the people who planned this outing could have been terribly inept but that would be the exception, not the norm.

Ok, I’ve tried to be even-tempered, not attacking people, but I’m getting a bit peeved at people repeatedly being “I am sure…” about an event which I was at and they were NOT. Just call me a liar to my face, why don’t you.

I am a competent adult, able to make my own way in this world without help thank you, and perfectly capable of finding a vending machine, snack bar, etc. But after 5-10 minutes of concerted looking, there were none. Ok? And even if I had been able to to find one outside the building, that ISN’T THE POINT-- My point is that the organizers of the event did not include this accomodation in the event’s menu. It’s not about whether there is someplace in the world where I can find, at my own expense and inconvenience, something I want to drink with the steak dinner I paid for; it’s whether the people hosting that dinner are excluding me because I DON’T drink.

So just stop with all the “I’m sure you’re wrong…” posts, ok? I was there, you weren’t. I’m finding them pretty condescending and almost insulting.

 

[omegabane]

Once again, I’ll offer the golf outing. Mind you, this was the FIRST official parish-wide social event I went to, before I was even in RCIA. So maybe I somehow I hit the one, only, never before and never again event where this happened; but it sure made an impression, nonetheless. At that moment, it was all I knew of how a Catholic parish ran their social events.

List was something like,
Beer.
Wine.
Liquor (for mixed drinks).
Coke syrup (no carbonation).

Sorry I can’t be more specific, I really wasn’t interested in remembering an inventory of things I didn’t drink.

Note what reasonable things are NOT on that list:
Soda (cans, bottles, fountain)
Lemonade (my personal favorite after being outside on a hot day)
Water
Iced tea

There, I offered what people apparently assumed was impossible. Now what?

“There’s a hose around back if you’re thirsty.” No, I say that in jest - that’s from a movie I was in back in my days as a childhood actor, and the line just popped into my mind when I read your post.

While it is hard to believe that people would lack foresight in this way, I have no reason to doubt that what you say is true, and I will admit that this was a mistake. While I am not opposed to having alcohol available at Parish-sponsored events, I do feel it is in bad taste to offer nothing besides. I have several friends at my Parish that do not drink at all for a myriad of reasons, and whenever we host events I make sure that I think of them and other like them in order to offer a suitable range of options for those who do not drink.

 

[LilyM]

Once again, I’ll offer the golf outing. Mind you, this was the FIRST official parish-wide social event I went to, before I was even in RCIA. So maybe I somehow I hit the one, only, never before and never again event where this happened; but it sure made an impression, nonetheless. At that moment, it was all I knew of how a Catholic parish ran their social events.

List was something like,
Beer.
Wine.
Liquor (for mixed drinks).
Coke syrup (no carbonation).

Sorry I can’t be more specific, I really wasn’t interested in remembering an inventory of things I didn’t drink.

Note what reasonable things are NOT on that list:
Soda (cans, bottles, fountain)
Lemonade (my personal favorite after being outside on a hot day)
Water
Iced tea

There, I offered what people apparently assumed was impossible. Now what?

Hi - I don’t disbelieve you, but just to clarify - not even any soda water for the Coke syrup? Just the alcohol and syrup? Sounds like it would’ve been awful even for drinkers who wanted mixed drinks - I wouldn’t want to just be putting coke syrup in with the liquor.

 

[BradW]

I guess the next question would be did you discuss this with the organizers?

Peace
James

Yeah, right… me the visitor, the new guy, who knew exactly zero people there… I’m going to find the organizer and tell them I didn’t like the event they’ve been running for years, which is apparently being run just fine in everyone else’s opinion.

I don’t think so.

I did ask one of the kitchen crew if there was something else to drink, and they rummaged about in the bottom shelf of a refrigerator and eventually found a bottle of pop. So people connected with it knew that one person had a problem with the menu. Whether they cared enough to take that up the line, I don’t know.

Based on the attitudes here, I doubt it, and I doubt talking to the organizers would have elicited any sympathy. They’d probably just say it was my problem, drinking’s not a sin, you can drive down the road and bring back a Coke, etc etc.

 

[Ignatius]

Hello all. I have an unusual question. Many of the Catholic churches around where I live host Beef and Beer fundraisers for families in need of help, and I have even seen published in our parishes bulletin that there “will be various beers available” at the function. As a Protestant and having gone to a Protestant church all my life, a church sponsored Beef and Beer fundraiser would NEVER happen. Personally, I don’t think drinking beer is a sin, but it just seems really odd a church would sponsor such an event.

That’s nothing, I’ve heard that Catholics even have wine during Sunday services.