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omegabane
Guest
Well, that’s not entirely true. It is actually the Precious Blood of Jesus Christ under the appearance of wine, but not wine itself.
That’s a discussion for another thread, though.
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That’s a discussion for another thread, though.
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BradW
Guest
Absolutely. But the original question was from America, and I’m in America, so the American context is what’s relevant to the discussion.
All the examples of how much better other countries or times (i.e., first century Cana) are are nice, and show this isn’t an “intrinsic evil” or anything, but it doesn’t do anything to change the American protestant / evangelical culture.
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GladCatholic
Guest
So much for the “Theology on Tap” program running rampant through the Diocese huh? I mean, why would one actually want to go in bars and talk about scripture to those people who drink?
What’s next? Get rid of Disneyland?
I have to tell you, and I don’t drink but only occasionally socially or in a celebration, I am not only mildly offended by the posts labeling Catholic providing of alcohol a stumbling block and actual impediment to someone’s conversion, as well as possibly someone would shun my presence because beer is in my cup, I am perplexed. Since when does a beverage get in the way of the Truth? What’s more important, Truth or what you choose to drink from a cultural standpoint? I can almost hear it now, “Yes, you have the Truth, but because alcohol may be served at a function, I cannot possibly accept it.” Or perhaps the Catholic Church should adopt every conservative aspect of every non-Catholic Church so She may appeal to everyone?
Glad
What’s next? Get rid of Disneyland?
I have to tell you, and I don’t drink but only occasionally socially or in a celebration, I am not only mildly offended by the posts labeling Catholic providing of alcohol a stumbling block and actual impediment to someone’s conversion, as well as possibly someone would shun my presence because beer is in my cup, I am perplexed. Since when does a beverage get in the way of the Truth? What’s more important, Truth or what you choose to drink from a cultural standpoint? I can almost hear it now, “Yes, you have the Truth, but because alcohol may be served at a function, I cannot possibly accept it.” Or perhaps the Catholic Church should adopt every conservative aspect of every non-Catholic Church so She may appeal to everyone?
Glad
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BradW
Guest
Had the description of the event said it would be an all-alcohol event, I might have done that. Or I might have just not bothered attending (just as the opinion here seems to be that people won’t both attending a non-alcohol event; turn-about is fair play).
But, they didn’t, so I was caught unawares.
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LilyM
Guest
Brad, I don’t think anyone here has indicated in any way that they believed in not providing non-alcoholic drinks at church functions, or that they approved of the treatment that you received.
And given that you apparently DIDN’T raise the issue yourself with the people organising the function, it would seem that you have no call to judge what they would or wouldn’t have done or how they would’ve reacted. Just because they were thoughtless doesn’t mean that they woudn’t smarten up if you said something. Perhaps it was an honest mistake - one of those cases where everyone thought someone else was bringing the softdrinks y’know - mistakes like that do happen.
Besides which, the actual provision of non-alcoholic drinks isn’t the main issue of this thread anyway, it’s the PROVISION of alcohol. And the hindrance or otherwise that it (rightly or wrongly) might be for non-drinkers.
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BradW
Guest
Maybe there was, but… see, now you’re assuming that I would have known enough about mixing drinks to recognize the carbonated water and mix my own fountain coke from scratch.
When people don’t drink, they tend not to learn the mixology skills that go along with drinking.
Nor have I worked as an olde-time soda jerk mixing fountian drinks, nor am I trendy enough to know the (European?) practice of mixing exotically-flavoured syrups with lightly-carbonated natural spring water (as is available at a quaint downtown resturant in my daughter’s city).
People who drink really have no clue what’s it’s like to NOT drink.
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BradW
Guest
And guess what? If you don’t want even the appearance of the wine (thanks, omegabane!), you DON’T HAVE TO TAKE IT! There’s the non-alcoholic alternative of taking JUST the Host!
Ah yes, a good illustrative example for all sides!
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LilyM
Guest
I’m a very very infrequent drinker myself, so don’t tell me I don’t know.
I’m trying to be as understanding as possible here, but it seems to me that carbonated water wouldn’t be that difficult to recognise - it’s clear and has bubbles in it. And that since it seems you didn’t even ask if they had any, you have no call to say ‘they probably wouldn’t have given me anything if I did ask’.
And if it turned out to be lemonade instead so much the better. Everything else (tonic water for example) has colour or sediment in it to let you know it’s not just water.
I have to say it doesn’t occur to me that Coke syrup simply stirred into a glass of soda water would be undrinkable, or even unpalatable, or that it requires any special training to do. Having said that, I’ve never done so, so I’m willing to admit I may be wrong on that one.
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GladCatholic
Guest
“Idolatry is committed, not merely by setting up false gods, but also by setting up false devils; by making men afraid of war or alcohol, or economic law, when they should be afraid of spiritual corruption and cowardice.” - G. K. Chesterton, Illustrated London News 9/11/09
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JRKH
Guest
I note that you did not address the second part of my response which is to volunteer to plan such events.
As a matter of fact, I have posted a couple of times that these things need to be addressed by those involved at the Parish level. None of these posts have had direct responses that I know of. It seems that if this is an issue worth being upset about (and I’m speaking in general here and not singling you out) then they should be worth volunteering your time to change.
After all, by volunteering and being a positive influence on these decisions you will be helpting to remove a stumbling block from some people coming into the church.
Peace
James
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Cat
Guest
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Cat
Guest
:banghead:
It’s amazing how many times I have said “No thank you, but I’ll have a Coke,” and then someone says, “Well, we have blah-blah (some kind of liquor that I have never heard of) over here, if you’d rather have some of that,” and I say, “No, I’ll just have a Coke,” and they say, “So are you working after this event?” and I say, “No,” and they say, “Well, you don’t have to drink Coke,” and it goes on.
I know they’re just trying to be nice, but eventually I have to come out of the closet and say, “I don’t drink alcohol.”
And they STILL say, “Well, here’s some blah blah (some liquor that I’ve never heard of)–that doesn’t have a lot of alcohol. Try it.”
And I say “I really don’t drink alcohol. EVER. The only time I have ever had alcohol in my life is when I take Nyquil or when I use vanilla extract in my baking.”
And they say, “Well, I’ll be darned! You’re kidding!”
And hopefully it ends there. But all too often, what happens is, “Well, there’s nothing wrong with alcohol. It’s not a sin to drink, you know. I’ve been drinking since I was a teenager, and I’m not an alcoholic. I’ve only been drunk a few times in my whole life. Why are you so judgemental?”
:banghead:
I am not kidding. It’s amazing how many times when you have to admit that you don’t drink, people will assume that you are judging them or calling them sinful.
:banghead:
Sorry for the vent. Just sharing my experiences with my forays into the world of drinking alcohol. All true. No sarcasm at all.
AMEN to the boldface!
It’s amazing how many times I have said “No thank you, but I’ll have a Coke,” and then someone says, “Well, we have blah-blah (some kind of liquor that I have never heard of) over here, if you’d rather have some of that,” and I say, “No, I’ll just have a Coke,” and they say, “So are you working after this event?” and I say, “No,” and they say, “Well, you don’t have to drink Coke,” and it goes on.
I know they’re just trying to be nice, but eventually I have to come out of the closet and say, “I don’t drink alcohol.”
And they STILL say, “Well, here’s some blah blah (some liquor that I’ve never heard of)–that doesn’t have a lot of alcohol. Try it.”
And I say “I really don’t drink alcohol. EVER. The only time I have ever had alcohol in my life is when I take Nyquil or when I use vanilla extract in my baking.”
And they say, “Well, I’ll be darned! You’re kidding!”
And hopefully it ends there. But all too often, what happens is, “Well, there’s nothing wrong with alcohol. It’s not a sin to drink, you know. I’ve been drinking since I was a teenager, and I’m not an alcoholic. I’ve only been drunk a few times in my whole life. Why are you so judgemental?”
:banghead:
I am not kidding. It’s amazing how many times when you have to admit that you don’t drink, people will assume that you are judging them or calling them sinful.
:banghead:
Sorry for the vent. Just sharing my experiences with my forays into the world of drinking alcohol. All true. No sarcasm at all.
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LilyM
Guest
Well you did say you thought we’d rather ‘die in our sins’ than give up alcohol to appease a non-drinker. That indicates a serious chip on the shoulder about alcohol right there, which almost certainly shows up in your tone or body language when you discuss alcohol even if you think it doesn’t.
Ultimately - these drinkers are clearly suffering from chronic ignorance plain and simple. Has nothing to do with either Catholicism or alcoholism.
If they drive cars they’d probably not believe you if you said you rode a bike or took public transport everywhere. The kind of people who don’t know whether France is a country or a city because they’ve never been interested in anything outside the US.
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omegabane
Guest
Cat - I am sorry that people really treat you this way! That is not very charitable of them. I will take extra care to ensure that I don’t do this to others. I like to think that I do a reasonable job already, as I have several friends at my Parish that don’t drink at all, so I try to be conscious of this, but I’ll work even harder.
I can already see that some of my earlier comments may not have been the most sensitive, so I apologize if that is the case. I think it is just so easy to get hung up on the “it’s not a sin” piece.
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Cat
Guest
JRKH, I know that you are trying to offer a reasonable suggestion–to become involved in planning the parties and it’s a good suggestion.
But read BradWs post again. He had never been to a Catholic social, he didn’t know anyone. What kind of social misfit jerk is going to find the host and say, “Hey, I’m totally new here and I don’t know you guys at all and I’m not even Catholic, but I would really appreciate it if you did things a little differently.”
Way to win friends and influence people! Poor BradW probably didn’t want all those guys to think he was a dweeb from then on!
You know it’s really tough being the ONLY different person in a crowd. Sometimes that’s good, like if you’re the only person standing up for the unborn. But when it comes to a drink, well, perhaps BradW didn’t think it was his place to tell a bunch of grown men what do to. Some hills just aren’t worth dying on.
Now back to your suggestion. It’s a good one, and I think that for women (me) and their events, it would probably work. I think women can plan a lot of cute events (teas, fashion shows, rummage sales, etc.) that don’t involve alcohol.
But I’m not sure it would work for all the other church events to ask the “party poopers” like me to help plan the party. Would you really want someone planning your church social who considers a 12-hour day sitting in a frosty skating rink the ultimate high in good times?!
Talk about wet blanket! (Freezing wet blanket!)
Remember that many non-drinkers, especially those from evangelical traditions, not only know nothing about drinking, but we know nothing about partying in general.
Why don’t we start a thread about dancing? Did you know that the church my husband grew up in (Assemblies of God) STILL condemns dancing as sin?
Or playing cards? My husband’s church also condemned cards as the “devil’s picture book.”
And all the other whooping it up that goes with parties–literally, we evangelicals are pretty naive about all that stuff.
And you actually would be willing to let us help plan?! Be prepared for a serious whup-butt Candy Land tournament at your Beef and Lemonade fundraiser, followed by a screening of one of the best movies ever filmed, The Ten Commandments, and closing out with an all-church singspiration and tent-meeting style prayer service! Now that’s goooood fellowship, evangelical-style!
Seriously, the Bible tells us that people are given charisms by the Holy Spirit, and one of these charisms is hospitality. I think that parish socials should be planned and carried out by those who have that gift. If they would like to include an ex-evangelical tee-totaller as an “advisory counsel”, that would be great. I’m not sure that the advisory counsel would be very helpful, but it would certainly prevent them from making the kind of error that was apparently made at BradWs parish.
(BTW, my description above of “evangelical fellowship” is an absolutely genuine description of evangelical church picnics and socials that I have experienced, except for Candy Land. We usually did traditional games, like sack races, pass the hat, relays, egg-tosses, etc. Sigh–those were good times and I’m not ashamed to say that I miss them.)
But read BradWs post again. He had never been to a Catholic social, he didn’t know anyone. What kind of social misfit jerk is going to find the host and say, “Hey, I’m totally new here and I don’t know you guys at all and I’m not even Catholic, but I would really appreciate it if you did things a little differently.”
Way to win friends and influence people! Poor BradW probably didn’t want all those guys to think he was a dweeb from then on!
You know it’s really tough being the ONLY different person in a crowd. Sometimes that’s good, like if you’re the only person standing up for the unborn. But when it comes to a drink, well, perhaps BradW didn’t think it was his place to tell a bunch of grown men what do to. Some hills just aren’t worth dying on.
Now back to your suggestion. It’s a good one, and I think that for women (me) and their events, it would probably work. I think women can plan a lot of cute events (teas, fashion shows, rummage sales, etc.) that don’t involve alcohol.
But I’m not sure it would work for all the other church events to ask the “party poopers” like me to help plan the party. Would you really want someone planning your church social who considers a 12-hour day sitting in a frosty skating rink the ultimate high in good times?!
Talk about wet blanket! (Freezing wet blanket!)
Remember that many non-drinkers, especially those from evangelical traditions, not only know nothing about drinking, but we know nothing about partying in general.
Why don’t we start a thread about dancing? Did you know that the church my husband grew up in (Assemblies of God) STILL condemns dancing as sin?
Or playing cards? My husband’s church also condemned cards as the “devil’s picture book.”
And all the other whooping it up that goes with parties–literally, we evangelicals are pretty naive about all that stuff.
And you actually would be willing to let us help plan?! Be prepared for a serious whup-butt Candy Land tournament at your Beef and Lemonade fundraiser, followed by a screening of one of the best movies ever filmed, The Ten Commandments, and closing out with an all-church singspiration and tent-meeting style prayer service! Now that’s goooood fellowship, evangelical-style!
Seriously, the Bible tells us that people are given charisms by the Holy Spirit, and one of these charisms is hospitality. I think that parish socials should be planned and carried out by those who have that gift. If they would like to include an ex-evangelical tee-totaller as an “advisory counsel”, that would be great. I’m not sure that the advisory counsel would be very helpful, but it would certainly prevent them from making the kind of error that was apparently made at BradWs parish.
(BTW, my description above of “evangelical fellowship” is an absolutely genuine description of evangelical church picnics and socials that I have experienced, except for Candy Land. We usually did traditional games, like sack races, pass the hat, relays, egg-tosses, etc. Sigh–those were good times and I’m not ashamed to say that I miss them.)
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ibkc
Guest
I don’t understand why he’d have to do that.
I have been through periods of abstinence from alcohol, and in that situation I would have had no trouble going to the host and saying in a pleasant tone, “Hi, nice to meet you! I’m Dorothy. Hey, do you know if there is any soda or tonic water or anything like that here? I don’t drink alcohol. Thanks!” In other words, instead of building the situation up to be “Lone, Cornered Teetotaler Goes Up Against THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!”, treat the hosts as fellow human beings who are capable of making mistakes.It was a major failure on the part of the event organizers to not make sure that non-alcoholic drinks weren’t available. Any decent host would have been embarrassed and would have bent over backwards to make sure the problem was rectified. But since he didn’t speak up, the hosts never even knew there was a problem. For all we know, they had planned for non-alcoholic drinks there but someone slipped up and it simply went unnoticed.
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JRKH
Guest
As to the issue with Brad’s first outing issue, I’ll grant that it is difficult when your a “Newbie”.
However, when one sees something that is a REAL ISSUE for them, they really shouldn’t keep quiet about it. After all, charitable suggestions should be given and received charitably.
Well I’m sure if you went in with a hatchet and a temperance speech there would be trouble (Just Kidding
), but if, as an organizer you simply made sure that there were sufficient variety of drinks available that would go a long way to resolving some concerns. After all, If you noted my post from earlier today, our festival has a nice variety to choose from.Also, if you know of past problems with excess drinking, you might help devise ways to limit it. For instance, only so many drink tickets sold type of thing.
Actually this brings up the larger issue. The suggestion having been made that we should not drink because it is a roadblock to certain evangelicals considering the Church. What about these other “issues”, should they then be dropped as well so as to not be obstacles to others?
The problem is that certain people here have made it very clear that they don’t think the planners “charisms” are very laudable. The planners have done their jobs and put on their events. If you believe that they are best suited for this then you should be satisfied with their decisions. If you are not satisfied, for a serious reason such as the winning of souls, then isn’t it incumbant on you to help make those corrections?
My point is that it is easy for us to complain here on this board, but are we willing to put our views into practice?
Actually I was at a parish picnic just last week where the parish supplied the meat and buns etc, and we brought side dishes and drinks. Out in the field next to the pavillion were set up 3 corn toss games. Several of the adults had the kids out doing races etc. Not at all unlike what you are describing.
Get in there Girl - What a great Witness to Christ you will make.
Peace
James
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Sabda
Guest
I’m sorry your thread has degenerated. Unfortunately this topic does seem to cause some heat under the collar on ALL sides.
I’m going to quote myself from a long ago thread (please do not post on that thread, it’s dead, let sleeping dogs lay as the saying goes).
From Protestants and wine: A question
Now to answer your question. My parish has not had any type of socials in a while (a couple of years actually) the reason is because we are renovating (restoring) our church building. We have to hold Mass in the community hall which means that there is no place else to hold social functions or CCD for that matter. Since I have only been with this parish though the years that they have been doing the renovating I couldn’t say. However, my mother’s parish does a lot of socializing and while some of the events do have alcoholic drinks not all their events do. For example their breakfast events would not have alcohol but their yearly Mardi Gra event would.
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Cat
Guest
Boldface mine: This is a great compromise. This allows teetotalers to attend some of the functions and have a good time on familiar turf, and it also allows those who enjoy drinking to attend other functions and have a good time on their familiar turf. Everyone’s happy. And each group (tee-totalers and drinkers) can invite their friends to the events and possibly this will cause the friends to become interested in looking into Catholicism.I’m sorry your thread has degenerated. Unfortunately this topic does seem to cause some heat under the collar on ALL sides.
I’m going to quote myself from a long ago thread (please do not post on that thread, it’s dead, let sleeping dogs lay as the saying goes).
From Protestants and wine: A question
Now to answer your question. My parish has not had any type of socials in a while (a couple of years actually) the reason is because we are renovating (restoring) our church building. We have to hold Mass in the community hall which means that there is no place else to hold social functions or CCD for that matter. Since I have only been with this parish though the years that they have been doing the renovating I couldn’t say. **However, my mother’s parish does a lot of socializing and while some of the events do have alcoholic drinks not all their events do. ** For example their breakfast events would not have alcohol but their yearly Mardi Gra event would.
Great parish.
Now we still have the issue of witness, but at least your mother’s parish can say to any critics, “You can see for yourselves that we don’t NEED alcohol to have good fellowship!”
J
JRKH
Guest
Well now if anyone’s Parish has beer breakfasts we might have something else to talk aboutI’m sorry your thread has degenerated. Unfortunately this topic does seem to cause some heat under the collar on ALL sides.
I’m going to quote myself from a long ago thread (please do not post on that thread, it’s dead, let sleeping dogs lay as the saying goes).
From Protestants and wine: A question
Now to answer your question. My parish has not had any type of socials in a while (a couple of years actually) the reason is because we are renovating (restoring) our church building. We have to hold Mass in the community hall which means that there is no place else to hold social functions or CCD for that matter. Since I have only been with this parish though the years that they have been doing the renovating I couldn’t say. However, my mother’s parish does a lot of socializing and while some of the events do have alcoholic drinks not all their events do. For example their breakfast events would not have alcohol but their yearly Mardi Gra event would.
Peace
James
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