Beehumble asked a really good thread worthy question...

[SteveVH]

**
Cardinal Newman found the scriptures difficult to interpret and he is one of those bishops who are supposed to interpret the scriptures. Newman was obviously not an expert in all facets of literary genres, fluent in Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek, extremely knowledgeable in the ancient Semitic cultures.

But Newman is part of that infallible authority. Did Newman have a special hotline to the Holy Spirit? Is it possible for an ordinary christian to have enough faith to ask the Holy Spirit or do you have to be a bishop to make contact with God? **

That is why we have the Magisterium. A conclusion drawn on the opinion of one bishop would never fly. It is the body of bishops, when in agreement, that constitutes an authentic interpretation. There is another factor to consider as well. Interpretation of Sacred Scripture requires Sacred Tradition as a compliment.

If one was asked “what is the nature of God?” and the answer was “God is the Holy Spirit”, the answer would be incomplete. The nature of God is found in the Trinity and where the Father is, the Son and the Holy Spirit must also be. Where the Son is, there the Father and the Holy Spirit must also be. Where the Holy Spirit is, there the Father and the Son must also be. This is due to the mystical unity between the Persons of the Trinity.

The revelation of God was passed down orally, for the most part. Part of it was committed to writing, but even Scripture itself tell us that it does not contain all that was said and done by Jesus Christ. It is the word of God and has its own Trinitarian character. Where Sacred Scripture is, there also must be Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium (teaching office). Where Sacred Tradition is, there also must be Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium. Where the Magisterium is, there also must be Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. When one of these elements is missing, we have an incomplete understanding of what was written.

To the point of your comment, if Cardinal Newman had a tough time, it wasn’t because he was mentally challenged or ignorant. Indeed, he was a very well educated man who occupied a high position in the Anglican Church before his conversion. Yet those who still maintain the practice of private interpretation believe that any person, regardless of their intellectual abilities, can interpret Sacred Scripture as well as the bishops of the Catholic Church which includes some of the most brilliant minds in history who have been involved in this practice for over 2000 years. Any intellectually honest person must ask “where does that leave me?”.

Add to this the promise that Christ made to His Church; that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide it into all truth. He did not promise this to just anyone who picked up the Bible. He created one Church for unity of belief and so gave this power to that Church, of which, He is the Head.

 

[Mikeoffaith]

I’m really glad to see such great posts on this thread, and especially that everyone is being so polite. This is good stuff. I am still having trouble discerning whether there has been any general consensus on the initial question. Is it the Christian point of view that someone has to be right and someone has to be wrong, or is it possible that the HS speaks to different people in different ways, albeit to the same end? My sense is that some posters are leaning toward the latter, but I’m not sure if I am reading right. Guess I’m still confused.

Your friend
Sufjon

Hi Sufjon-

I don’t think it is a Christian point of view but a human point of view. As most humans, we have dualistic minds. Someone is either in or out, it’s either up or down, light or dark and most importantly right or wrong. And of course if you believe you are right and all others are wrong, then it’s going to lead to disagreements. I think the message that Christ left us is too big and too difficult for any of us individually or even to be solely contained within a single denominations. The unfortunate part is even though each of our churches may understand and practice a part of the message well, we are unable or unwilling to look and appreciate what the other could teach us, because we always think of either or, never and and. The minute you start down the right/wrong path, you automatically set up a win/lose relationship, and it can never be win win. I think we waste a lot of time traveling down these roads and this is a road that bypasses Christ.

Mike

 

[Sufjon]

Hi Sufjon-

I don’t think it is a Christian point of view but a human point of view. As most humans, we have dualistic minds. Someone is either in or out, it’s either up or down, light or dark and most importantly right or wrong. And of course if you believe you are right and all others are wrong, then it’s going to lead to disagreements. I think the message that Christ left us is too big and too difficult for any of us individually or even to be solely contained within a single denominations. The unfortunate part is even though each of our churches may understand and practice a part of the message well, we are unable or unwilling to look and appreciate what the other could teach us, because we always think of either or, never and and. The minute you start down the right/wrong path, you automatically set up a win/lose relationship, and it can never be win win. I think we waste a lot of time traveling down these roads and this is a road that bypasses Christ.

Mike

Hi Mike: I think you’re right. Each path is right in it’s own way and I think they all take us to the same place. I think that’s some great insight on your part - that we can all learn something from what others have to offer. Rather than each of our paths being in conflict, the actually can compliment and enrich one another. That’s a great thought! Thanks Mike.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[PRmerger]

Hi Mike: I think you’re right. Each path is right in it’s own way and I think they all take us to the same place. I think that’s some great insight on your part - that we can all learn something from what others have to offer. Rather than each of our paths being in conflict, the actually can compliment and enrich one another. That’s a great thought! Thanks Mike.

Your friend
Sufjon

The errors in this metaphor of religion being a “path” are that it presumes that:

1. that man makes the path.
2. that religion is man’s search for God.

However, Catholicism proposes these Truths about the “path” to God:

1. there is just ONE PATH in which God came DOWN to show us the way, the truth and the life.
2. all other religions are man-made attempts to find God; Christianity is God reaching down from heaven and lifting us up.
3. Christianity is GOD’S SEARCH FOR MAN! He is always in passionate pursuit of us!
   4)Catholicism is the path Jesus has provided us.

As Peter Kreeft states: There is no human way up the mountain, only a divine way down!

“This is the single most common objection to the Faith today, for ‘today’ worships not God but equality. It fears being right where others are wrong more than it fears being wrong. It worships democracy and resents the fact that God is an absolute monarch.” ibid

 

[Sufjon]

The errors in this metaphor of religion being a “path” are that it presumes that:

1. that man makes the path.
2. that religion is man’s search for God.

However, Catholicism proposes these Truths about the “path” to God:

1. there is just ONE PATH in which God came DOWN to show us the way, the truth and the life.
2. all other religions are man-made attempts to find God; Christianity is God reaching down from heaven and lifting us up.
3. Christianity is GOD’S SEARCH FOR MAN! He is always in passionate pursuit of us!
   4)Catholicism is the path Jesus has provided us.

As Peter Kreeft states: There is no human way up the mountain, only a divine way down!

“This is the single most common objection to the Faith today, for ‘today’ worships not God but equality. It fears being right where others are wrong more than it fears being wrong. It worships democracy and resents the fact that God is an absolute monarch.” ibid

Dear PRMerger: It is no error. Consciousness makes the path. This was proven by Heisenberg and others in the early part of the last century through quantum physics. The reason for the continuity in all events and the reason that events don’t always turn out the way you want is that in all the universe there is only one consciousness that makes everything. The outcomes are always for the better good of the whole. The illusion is that the awareness we experience through our sense organs and minds are mistaken for consciousness. That is called maya and it is the gateway to all sin. Instead, everything exists within God, and God is all there is. Man has never been lost to God. It all belongs to Him, is of Him and is in Him. Nothing is ever lost. God doesn’t go around losing His parts. There are countless creatures on this planet and in the immenseness of creation. None shares the exact same path. The paths are how the creator experiences what He makes - through the things He makes and through the paths they take. This does not conflict with any teachings pf Jesus. I believe it is what He knew when He said love God and love your neighbor as yourself. It also means to know your neighbor to be yourself. That is why what we do to the least among us we have also done to Him. All is Him. Catholicism is that path Jesus gave PRMerger and other Catholics. You should stick to it with all the effort you have. Also in accordance with His design, He gave me my path. I will stick to it as well.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[joe370]

Sufjon, considering the fact that Jesus (if you believe this to be the case) - came down to his creation to die on the cross at the hands of His creation, so that we may have eternal life, do you think that Jesus would want us to belong to the church He founded almost 2000 years ago in Jerusalem, on Pentecost?

Dear PRMerger: It is no error. Consciousness makes the path. This was proven by Heisenberg and others in the early part of the last century through quantum physics. The reason for the continuity in all events and the reason that events don’t always turn out the way you want is that in all the universe there is only one consciousness that makes everything. The outcomes are always for the better good of the whole. The illusion is that the awareness we experience through our sense organs and minds are mistaken for consciousness. That is called maya and it is the gateway to all sin. Instead, everything exists within God, and God is all there is. Man has never been lost to God. It all belongs to Him, is of Him and is in Him. Nothing is ever lost. God doesn’t go around losing His parts. There are countless creatures on this planet and in the immenseness of creation. None shares the exact same path. The paths are how the creator experiences what He makes - through the things He makes and through the paths they take. This does not conflict with any teachings pf Jesus. I believe it is what He knew when He said love God and love your neighbor as yourself. It also means to know your neighbor to be yourself. That is why what we do to the least among us we have also done to Him. All is Him. Catholicism is that path Jesus gave PRMerger and other Catholics. You should stick to it with all the effort you have. Also in accordance with His design, He gave me my path. I will stick to it as well.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[PRmerger]

Dear PRMerger: It is no error. Consciousness makes the path. This was proven by Heisenberg and others in the early part of the last century through quantum physics.

Fair enough. Except I would amend the above to say: Consciousness makes *a *path.

Not the path.

The Path is Christianity, in the Church established by Jesus Christ.

The reason for the continuity in all events and the reason that events don’t always turn out the way you want is that in all the universe there is only one consciousness that makes everything. The outcomes are always for the better good of the whole. The illusion is that the awareness we experience through our sense organs and minds are mistaken for consciousness. That is called maya and it is the gateway to all sin.

Ok.

Instead, everything exists within God, and God is all there is.

In one sense, you are expressing a very Catholic POV, articulated by all the great Christian thinkers: Augustine, Aquinas, Anselm, Pope JPII, Pope B16.

However, I must make a distinction that while everything exists within God, God is indeed transcendent, as well as immanent. He is"higher than my highest and more inward than my innermost self."

Man has never been lost to God. It all belongs to Him, is of Him and is in Him. Nothing is ever lost. God doesn’t go around losing His parts. There are countless creatures on this planet and in the immenseness of creation. None shares the exact same path. The paths are how the creator experiences what He makes - through the things He makes and through the paths they take

Indeed. Again, you are expressing a very Catholic and Biblical theology.
*
For you love all things that exist, and detest none of the things that you have made; for you would not have made anything if you had hated it. How would anything have endured, if you had not willed it? Or how would anything not called forth by you have been preserved? You spare all things, for they are yours, O Lord, you who love the living.-*Wisdom 11:24-26

This does not conflict with any teachings pf Jesus. I believe it is what He knew when He said love God and love your neighbor as yourself. It also means to know your neighbor to be yourself. That is why what we do to the least among us we have also done to Him. All is Him.

Amen.

However, Jesus did not come to be a teacher. Nor to be a philosopher. For, truly, his ethics were already known by any morally sane individual. Love your neighbor. Turn the other cheek.

Jesus came to be the Lamb of God who takes away the Sins of the world.

Catholicism is that path Jesus gave PRMerger and other Catholics. You should stick to it with all the effort you have. Also in accordance with His design, He gave me my path. I will stick to it as well.

Your friend
Sufjon

The path you are on, my seeker brother, is certainly the path God placed before you. (And how could you *not *“stick to it” anyway, given your above propositions regarding consciousness? )

However, you must understand that 2 contrary positions cannot both be true at the same time. It can’t both be true that something is “A” and “not-A” at the same time.

So either the Eucharist is the Body of Christ, or it is not. And if it is not, then it is truly an abomination what the Catholic Church professes–adoring an idol as god.

Either the pope is the vicar of Christ, or he is not. Both positions cannot be true.

Either Jesus is God, or he is not. Both positions cannot be true.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Dear PRMerger: It is no error. Consciousness makes the path. This was proven by Heisenberg and others in the early part of the last century through quantum physics. The reason for the continuity in all events and the reason that events don’t always turn out the way you want is that in all the universe there is only one consciousness that makes everything. The outcomes are always for the better good of the whole.

Excuse me? Please justify the Holocaust as being “for the better good of the whole.”

The illusion is that the awareness we experience through our sense organs and minds are mistaken for consciousness. That is called maya and it is the gateway to all sin. Instead, everything exists within God, and God is all there is. Man has never been lost to God. It all belongs to Him, is of Him and is in Him. Nothing is ever lost. God doesn’t go around losing His parts.

This is pantheism in its Eastern form. It wasn’t true then and it isn’t true now.

See also: Refuting the Matrix Argument, or Why Stoned College Kids Make Bad Philosophers.

Catholicism is that path Jesus gave PRMerger and other Catholics. You should stick to it with all the effort you have. Also in accordance with His design, He gave me my path. I will stick to it as well.

Here you are presupposing that Jesus did not come down from heaven to give clear instructions to EVERYONE on how to achieve reconciliation with God.

[BIBLEDRB]John 3:16[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[joe370]

Exactly… An abomination that was believed even by men like Ignatius of Antioch, who was an actual apostle of John which means that John would have been guilty of said abomination. However, it is not an abomination; it is really Jesus’ body and blood. I don’t know how anyone can doubt this fact considering the fact that John no doubt, taught Ignatius that Jesus’ body and blood was/is truly present in the Eucharist.

PRmerges
So either the Eucharist is the Body of Christ, or it is not. And if it is not, then it is truly an abomination what the Catholic Church professes–adoring an idol as god.

 

[PRmerger]

We have a Present Teacher to lead us and guide us…but this Present Teacher and Guide is more concerned about how you treat, address, serve the person sitting next to you than He is about your doctrinal beliefs and religious affiliation.

Yet, curiously, it seems that Publisher is also professing a doctrinal belief in the comment above.

 

[Sufjon]

Sufjon, considering the fact that Jesus (if you believe this to be the case) - came down to his creation to die on the cross at the hands of His creation, so that we may have eternal life, do you think that Jesus would want us to belong to the church He founded almost 2000 years ago in Jerusalem, on Pentecost?

Hi joe370: Yes indeed, He would want that. To an outsider like myself it does appear that His Church took on different permutations along the way. I am not sure what to make of that, My inclination is to think that it’s ok. This is one of the many reasons I come to this website - to gain an understanding of Christianity. It remains very confusing to me, but I am learning along the way thanks to folks like yourself and many others here on CAF. The people I run into here are quite a bit more knowledgeable than people I meet day to day, so I am glad to have this resource.

Your friend,
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

Excuse me? Please justify the Holocaust as being “for the better good of the whole.”

This is pantheism in its Eastern form. It wasn’t true then and it isn’t true now.

See also: Refuting the Matrix Argument, or Why Stoned College Kids Make Bad Philosophers.

Here you are presupposing that Jesus did not come down from heaven to give clear instructions to EVERYONE on how to achieve reconciliation with God.

[BIBLEDRB]John 3:16[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Cat_Herder]

This is one of the many reasons I come to this website - to gain an understanding of Christianity. It remains very confusing to me, but I am learning along the way thanks to folks like yourself and many others here on CAF.

I think the only missing piece of the puzzle for you is FREE WILL.

As you see it now, everyone and everything is part of God. And in some sense that is true–God created everything that exists, so His fingerprints are on everything. Man, in particular, is made in the image and likeness of God (Gen 1:27).

So–if God created everything that exists, did God also create evil? That is the problem which I posed to you by mentioning the Holocaust above. If God created everything, then God also created evil, right?

NO. Listen to the young Dr. Einstein here.

Evil does not actually exist–it is the absence of good. And it is precisely because man has a free will out of virtue of being made in God’s image, that man can choose to do evil. Also, there are angels, spiritual beings who have free will as well. Some of these angels are evil, and they are responsible for much of the influence of evil as well.

So we have evil, something that does not exist but is an aberration in what does exist–an aberration that is not willed by God. Because evil, that is, the absence of good, affects creation in a way not intended by God, not everything in creation is good even though it was created by God to be good. Hence, no pantheism; when there is a lack of good, there is an absence of God, who alone is good (Mark 10:18).

God permits all of this to happen, because He is unchanging (Malachi 3:6) and so He will not revoke free will until the world reaches its end, at which point all will be judged according to their works (Rev. 12).

 

[Sufjon]

Excuse me? Please justify the Holocaust as being “for the better good of the whole.”

This is pantheism in its Eastern form. It wasn’t true then and it isn’t true now.

See also: Refuting the Matrix Argument, or Why Stoned College Kids Make Bad Philosophers.

Here you are presupposing that Jesus did not come down from heaven to give clear instructions to EVERYONE on how to achieve reconciliation with God.

[BIBLEDRB]John 3:16[/BIBLEDRB]

Excuse me? Please justify the Holocaust as being “for the better good of the whole.”

Hi Cat Herder

The Holocaust was a terrible thing. I am glad that I didn’t participate it. From my limited view of the whole of creation, I cannot say what it’s purpose was. I do think that from time to time people get their way, and perhaps this is how it happened. Consciousness is transpersonal and group consciousness is likely to be very powerful. If you have enough people with the wrong intent in mind, some pretty bad things can indeed happen. I do know some awful things can happen in this world. Perhaps all that matters is what is learned from them.

This is pantheism in its Eastern form. It wasn’t true then and it isn’t true now.

Better term is mysticism. I do believe your church has had mystics, but I could be wrong. I think Teresa Neumann has been described as a mystic. She was Catholic.

See also: Refuting the Matrix Argument, or Why Stoned College Kids Make Bad Philosophers.

Honestly, I would have to say that depends on what their major is. If they are doing graduate work in philosophy, psychology or physics, they might actually be quite profound philosophers, even when stoned.

QUOTE=Cat Herder;7194051]

Here you are presupposing that Jesus did not come down from heaven to give clear instructions to EVERYONE on how to achieve reconciliation with God.

I am not supposing that, but you’ve brought up a good point. What were the instructions?

Your friend,
Sufjon

[BIBLEDRB]John 3:16[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Cat_Herder]

The Holocaust was a terrible thing. I am glad that I didn’t participate it. From my limited view of the whole of creation, I cannot say what it’s purpose was. I do think that from time to time people get their way, and perhaps this is how it happened.

Indeed. It was an act of perverted free will.

Consciousness is transpersonal and group consciousness is likely to be very powerful. If you have enough people with the wrong intent in mind, some pretty bad things can indeed happen. I do know some awful things can happen in this world.

There are evil spirits, as I mentioned. (They are conscious beings, so perhaps that fits your definition?) And, of course, there is fallen human nature. Adolf Hitler was probably influenced by both.

Perhaps all that matters is what is learned from them.

Because human life has an inherent value and because Jesus has satisfied the Father’s wrath, God no longer deliberately takes lives in order to make a point. He did do this under the Old Covenant, but no longer.

Better term is mysticism. I do believe your church has had mystics, but I could be wrong. I think Teresa Neumann has been described as a mystic. She was Catholic.

Mysticism is not equivalent to pantheism. Christian contemplative prayer actually involves removing all creatures from one’s mind in order to focus solely on God. That’s the very opposite of pantheism, which is embracing God in all creatures.

I am not supposing that, but you’ve brought up a good point. What were the instructions?

Here are the basics:

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 2:38[/BIBLEDRB]

As a tangent, you have indirectly brought up the question of what happens to those who don’t get the instruction. We know from the Bible they’ll be judged on their works like everyone else and the Catholic Church understands that their failure to be baptized won’t be held against them as they didn’t know it was needed.

 

[Sufjon]

However, I must make a distinction that while everything exists within God, God is indeed transcendent, as well as immanent. He is"higher than my highest and more inward than my innermost self."

This agrees with what I said.

Indeed. Again, you are expressing a very Catholic and Biblical theology.
*

Actually, that theology existed thousands of years before the first Abrahamic religious texts. It is good that it wasn’t lost to Christians.
Amen.

However, Jesus did not come to be a teacher. Nor to be a philosopher. For, truly, his ethics were already known by any morally sane individual. Love your neighbor. Turn the other cheek.
PRmerger;7194006:

Jesus came to be the Lamb of God who takes away the Sins of the world.

The sin of the world is delusion. To show the truth takes it away. What is the truth? That death is an illusion. His resurrection was a very good demonstration of that.

The path you are on, my seeker brother, is certainly the path God placed before you. (And how could you *not *

“stick to it” anyway, given your above propositions regarding consciousness? )

That is right. There is nothing to fear, because you cannot fail.

However, you must understand that 2 contrary positions cannot both be true at the same time. It can’t both be true that something is “A” and "not

-A" at the same time.

So either the Eucharist is the Body of Christ, or it is not. And if it is not, then it is truly an abomination what the Catholic Church professes–adoring an idol as god.

Either the pope is the vicar of Christ, or he is not. Both positions cannot be true.

Either Jesus is God, or he is not. Both positions cannot be true.

-The Eucharist is indeed the Body of Christ. I think I said that, but maybe I didn’t.

-The Pope is the vicar of Christ. I don’t know of anyone else who claims that title. Is there? That is his role. Yours is to follow the vicar of Christ. I have been called in a different way like billions of others before me and after me. Such will always be the case.

-Jesus is most certainly God. All is He. I hope I didn’t seem to say otherwise.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

Indeed. It was an act of perverted free will.

There are evil spirits, as I mentioned. (They are conscious beings, so perhaps that fits your definition?) And, of course, there is fallen human nature. Adolf Hitler was probably influenced by both.

Because human life has an inherent value and because Jesus has satisfied the Father’s wrath, God no longer deliberately takes lives in order to make a point. He did do this under the Old Covenant, but no longer.

Mysticism is not equivalent to pantheism. Christian contemplative prayer actually involves removing all creatures from one’s mind in order to focus solely on God. That’s the very opposite of pantheism, which is embracing God in all creatures.

Here are the basics:

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 2:38[/BIBLEDRB]

As a tangent, you have indirectly brought up the question of what happens to those who don’t get the instruction. We know from the Bible they’ll be judged on their works like everyone else and the Catholic Church understands that their failure to be baptized won’t be held against them as they didn’t know it was needed.

 

[PRmerger]

Better term is mysticism. I do believe your church has had mystics, but I could be wrong. I think Teresa Neumann has been described as a mystic. She was Catholic.

Mystics are anyone who know God by experience. So, yes, the Catholic church indeed has many mystics.

 

[Sufjon]

Indeed. It was an act of perverted free will.

Because human life has an inherent value and because Jesus has satisfied the Father’s wrath, God no longer deliberately takes lives in order to make a point. He did do this under the Old Covenant, but no longer.

Dear Friend Cat Herder.

I don’t believe in a primitive, angry, tribal God. That personification was the creation of a primitive tribal people. Anger is a sign of ignorance. God is not ignorant. Nothing that understands all things can be angry. On the next point, I cannot explain the purpose of any given tragedy. My aim is not to become too enmeshed in any of that because I think my task is to transcend the happenings of this world. while not participating in evil things, whether on a large scale like the Holocaust or on a small day to day scale. We live in a physical causal world where everything must have an equal level of it’s opposite for anything to exist. Nothing is self-referential, so for every good there must be an evil. The point is not to become tied up in the evil yourself.

QUOTE=Cat Herder;7194882]I

Mysticism is not equivalent to pantheism. Christian contemplative prayer actually involves removing all creatures from one’s mind in order to focus solely on God. That’s the very opposite of pantheism, which is embracing God in all creatures.

You are right - mysticism is not the same as pantheism. You have mistaken my beliefs for pantheism. There are some significant differences between the two. You brought up pantheism because that is the plane on which you understand what I said. You have still not understood what I said.

I

As a tangent, you have indirectly brought up the question of what happens to those who don’t get the instruction. We know from the Bible they’ll be judged on their works like everyone else and the Catholic Church understands that their failure to be baptized won’t be held against them as they didn’t know it was needed.

God has given himself to every culture in different ways at different times. At their core, the message is always the same. If you are a Christian, you had better do what a Christian does. That is your path. Baptism is how Christians believe they are absolved of original sin, or at least that is my understanding. I believe that original sin is not to know the unitive nature of things. For one such as myself, there is no baptism. there is only a lot of hard work in order to be able to know at a deeper level than the intellect that all is one.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Sufjon]

Mystics are anyone who know God by experience. So, yes, the Catholic church indeed has many mystics.

Thank you PR Merger - that is exactly what I meant. You hit the nail on the head.

Your friend
Sufjon