Beehumble asked a really good thread worthy question...

[Cat_Herder]

You are right - mysticism is not the same as pantheism. You have mistaken my beliefs for pantheism. There are some significant differences between the two. You brought up pantheism because that is the plane on which you understand what I said. You have still not understood what I said.

Based on what you have said, I understand that you are a Taoist with Eastern pantheist influence.

I don’t believe in a primitive, angry, tribal God. That personification was the creation of a primitive tribal people. Anger is a sign of ignorance. God is not ignorant. Nothing that understands all things can be angry.

Does justice exist, or is it simply maya?

On the next point, I cannot explain the purpose of any given tragedy. My aim is not to become too enmeshed in any of that because I think my task is to transcend the happenings of this world. while not participating in evil things, whether on a large scale like the Holocaust or on a small day to day scale. We live in a physical causal world where everything must have an equal level of it’s opposite for anything to exist. Nothing is self-referential, so for every good there must be an evil. The point is not to become tied up in the evil yourself.

Suppose that a loved one is about to be run over by a car. Would you jump into the path of the car in order to rescue him/her? Or would that be a futile exercise of maya?

God has given himself to every culture in different ways at different times. At their core, the message is always the same.

Does Osama bin Laden and his culture have this “message?”

If you are a Christian, you had better do what a Christian does. That is your path. Baptism is how Christians believe they are absolved of original sin, or at least that is my understanding. I believe that original sin is not to know the unitive nature of things.

So God is supposed to be united, and yet God is one with the material world. Does that not mean that God must be composed of parts, as matter is made of parts? Is it not true that an unenlightened person (who does not know the “unitive nature of things”) is not united with God or is less united than one who does? How can this be if God is supposed to be united?

Does that not also mean that God cannot be spiritual in His entirety? Does it not also mean that God must be changing as the material world changes? How can a changing God be perfect?

Moreover, because God is one with the material world, is God not then limited in space and not all-present?

 

[Sufjon]

Based on what you have said, I understand that you are a Taoist with Eastern pantheist influence.

Hi Cat Herder. I am not a Taoist, but Taoism does borrow a lot from my faith, which is thousands or years older than that. Great saints from my faith say that all faiths are good, and that Christianity is included. I have read the Old and New Testaments and am trying to make sense of Christianity so that I can incorporate it better into my experience, and properly honor it’s place. Problem is that Christianity has so many sects that disagree with one another. I am trying to get all this right in my head.

QUOTE=Cat Herder;7195535]
Does justice exist, or is it simply maya?

Yes, justice exists in universal laws of cause and effect. The problem is that from our limited view, we cannot always see the larger picture of a particular cause and effect. Some are relatively immediate and easy to spot. Others span many generations to become clear, while others remain forever hard to place in the human intellect.

QUOTE=Cat Herder;7195535]

Suppose that a loved one is about to be run over by a car. Would you jump into the path of the car in order to rescue him/her? Or would that be a futile exercise of maya?

My faith says that you do your duty to do the best thing in all cases. It would require me to strive to be a person who could muster the courage to jump in front of a car for someone I do not know as well as a loved one, because I am supposed to learn to love everyone equally, with no preference to my family. This is because everyone is my family. I cannot love my neighbor as myself if I can’t do that. This is indeed the hardest part. There is much to be done to be able to see this at a deeper level than just the intellect. I can tell you that we are all one thing all day and you would understand it, but you would miss the point until you know it on a deeper level. Thought cannot take you the whole way. It is only a tool.

QUOTE=Cat Herder;7195535]
Does Osama bin Laden and his culture have this “message?”

Osama Bin Laden’s culture has it’s message and it’s path. This does not prevent adherents from misinterpreting the message. To some extent we all have our own free will. Not to the extent that most people believe, but enough to do a lot of damage and conversely to do a lot of good. Our abilities are limited. The whole keeps it in check. The answer to what I think you are getting at is yes, I do respect Islam. I don’t understand it very well, but then again I don’t “get” Christianity very well either. I am trying.

QUOTE=Cat Herder;7195535]

So God is supposed to be united, and yet God is one with the material world. Does that not mean that God must be composed of parts, as matter is made of parts? Is it not true that an unenlightened person (who does not know the “unitive nature of things”) is not united with God or is less united than one who does? How can this be if God is supposed to be united?

God is in every particle in the Universe. All of it’s parts and parcels also exist within Him. An unenlightened person does not know this, but is still a part of God. Such a person cannot reach a state of oneness with the divine consciousness or heaven if you would until this realization is made. At that point all things become revealed to the aspirant.
The method is simple, yet brutally hard for our busy minds. We are to take God’s subtle advice - “be still and know that I am.” You have to stop talking and stop thinking and spend many hours being still and listening. This is very hard to do.

QUOTE=Cat Herder;7195535]

Does that not also mean that God cannot be spiritual in His entirety? Does it not also mean that God must be changing as the material world changes? How can a changing God be perfect?

The material lis part of God. Mutability is it’s nature, Without change it stops. While the material world exists within God, He Himself is beyond it. The material world is in Him and made by Him, yet He transcends it. So He changes and He does not change. His consciousness, which I am told Jesus possessed as the Christ Kutashtha does not change. The scenes in our existence change like movies on a movie screen, but every aspect of the movie comes from the single light of the projector.

QUOTE=Cat Herder;7195535]
Moreover, because God is one with the material world, is God not then limited in space and not all-present?

He is infinitely more than the material world He created. While it exists within Him, He is beyond causal existence. That which you really are is as well. In finding this, you transcend it, but no one can tell you this. It has to be done experientially.

Always your friend
Sufjon

 

[Cat_Herder]

The material lis part of God. Mutability is it’s nature, Without change it stops. While the material world exists within God, He Himself is beyond it. The material world is in Him and made by Him, yet He transcends it. So He changes and He does not change. His consciousness, which I am told Jesus possessed as the Christ Kutashtha does not change. The scenes in our existence change like movies on a movie screen, but every aspect of the movie comes from the single light of the projector.

How can God be changing and unchanging at the same time? Either something changes or it does not change. Unless it’s made of parts, some that change and some not–and if God is made of parts (like the projector and projection in your metaphor) then God is not One.

New Ageism: You can have your cake or you can eat it, but not both.
Catholicism: You have something better than cake and you can eat Him too.

Also, you insist that God is changeable yet haven’t explained how God is perfect given God’s mutability. A changeable God could easily turn around and declare your faith to be evil at any given time. That brings us to Islam.

Osama Bin Laden’s culture has it’s message and it’s path. This does not prevent adherents from misinterpreting the message. To some extent we all have our own free will. Not to the extent that most people believe, but enough to do a lot of damage and conversely to do a lot of good. Our abilities are limited. The whole keeps it in check. The answer to what I think you are getting at is yes, I do respect Islam. I don’t understand it very well, but then again I don’t “get” Christianity very well either. I am trying.

The Qur’an says this about Christianity:

“Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allāh and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.” [Sura 2:62]

But then it also says this:

"Those who say, ‘God is the Messiah, son of Mary,’ have defied God. The Messiah himself said, ‘Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.’ If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers. ose people who say that God is the third of three are defying [the truth]: there is only One God. If they persist in what they are saying, a painful punishment will afflict those of them who persist. Why do they not turn to God and ask his forgiveness, when God is most forgiving, most merciful? The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; other messengers had come and gone before him; his mother was a virtuous woman; both ate food. See how clear We make these signs for them; see how deluded they are. (Sura 5:72)

Well, which is it? Islam says that God can change, so He can turn around, void the Scriptures and condemn to hell those who once had His favor.

As for bin Laden, this is probably his favorite ayat:

“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” (Sura 9:29)

See, the problem with a changing God is that not only is He imperfect, but His followers (such as you) can’t rely on His promises. Thankfully, God is not changing; He is perfect.

[BIBLEDRB]Malachi 3:6[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Sufjon]

How can God be changing and unchanging at the same time? Either something changes or it does not change. Unless it’s made of parts, some that change and some not–and if God is made of parts (like the projector and projection in your metaphor) then God is not One.

Hi Cat Herder: Remember I said that I could explain it all day and that you probably wouldn’t get it? read it again. God is beyond duality.

New Ageism: You can have your cake or you can eat it, but not both.
Catholicism: You have something better than cake and you can eat Him too.

New Ageism: There is nothing new about anything I have said. It was known for at least 4 thousand years before Christ and I think it was also known by Christ. From what I can see of your scriptures I am pretty sure He knew it.

Also, you insissoundt that God is changeable yet haven’t explained how God is perfect given God’s mutability. A changeable God could easily turn around and declare your faith to be evil at any given time. That brings us to Islam.

I said that the world He makes is always changing. Universes explode into being, suns form, planets and then life. Then it gets destroyed over time and the process begins anew. God is beyond causality. Look up the term causality and you might see what I am saying. God’s consciousness never changes. His creations are infinite and ever changing. You and I are changing, however what we really are at our core has always been and always will be. To find that and truly know it is the mission. Not to know it as your mind is capable of knowing. That is just an instrument.

The Qur’an says this about Christianity:

“Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allāh and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.” [Sura 2:62]

But then it also says this:

"Those who say, ‘God is the Messiah, son of Mary,’ have defied God. The Messiah himself said, ‘Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord.’ If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers. ose people who say that God is the third of three are defying [the truth]: there is only One God. If they persist in what they are saying, a painful punishment will afflict those of them who persist. Why do they not turn to God and ask his forgiveness, when God is most forgiving, most merciful? The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; other messengers had come and gone before him; his mother was a virtuous woman; both ate food. See how clear We make these signs for them; see how deluded they are. (Sura 5:72)

Well, which is it? Islam says that God can change, so He can turn around, void the Scriptures and condemn to hell those who once had His favor.

I don’t know much about Islam, except what I see here at CAF. When the subject comes up, people start throwing stones at one another. I don’t care to be involved in that. You will notice that I never give a name to my faith. That is because these names people throw about like Catholic, Protestant, Muslim or whatever drives wedges and divisions between you. I just see people. From what I understand, there are some strange things written in the Qur’an. From what I have read on my own, there are some strange things in your Bible as well. This is why I am here. To understand. Why do you all disagree with so much with one another? What is the flaw that caused Christianity to go off in countless directions? This is one of the many things I want to know. It seems beyond comprehension from the outside.

As for bin Laden, this is probably his favorite ayat:

“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.” (Sura 9:29)

See, the problem with a changing God is that not only is He imperfect, but His followers (such as you) can’t rely on His promises. Thankfully, God is not changing; He is perfect.

[BIBLEDRB]Malachi 3:6[/BIBLEDRB]

/QUOTE

Insofar as I know, most Muslims don’t consider Bin Laden to be an emissary of Islam.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Cat_Herder]

Hi Cat Herder: Remember I said that I could explain it all day and that you probably wouldn’t get it? read it again. God is beyond duality.

To find that and truly know it is the mission. Not to know it as your mind is capable of knowing. That is just an instrument.

Then God is not knowable at all, and neither of us have a reasonable religion and should become Deists. God forbid.

I said that the world He makes is always changing. Universes explode into being, suns form, planets and then life. Then it gets destroyed over time and the process begins anew. God is beyond causality. Look up the term causality and you might see what I am saying.

So God did not create the Universe?

God’s consciousness never changes. His creations are infinite and ever changing.

God and His creations are not the same thing.

You and I are changing, however what we really are at our core has always been and always will be.

So there is no such thing as say, drug addiction? That stuff definitely changes a person.

I don’t know much about Islam, except what I see here at CAF. When the subject comes up, people start throwing stones at one another. I don’t care to be involved in that. You will notice that I never give a name to my faith. That is because these names people throw about like Catholic, Protestant, Muslim or whatever drives wedges and divisions between you.

It isn’t the names that cause the divisions. It’s the belief systems.

Many atheists reject that name and say they are “rationalists” or “brights.” But what makes them “rational” or “bright” is the rejection of God. The rejection of God is atheism whether or not they want to accept the name.

As long as you profess pantheism, you are a pantheist regardless of the nominal designation of your religion. Likewise, as long as you assert a balance between good and evil (the Tao), you are a Taoist regardless of the nominal designation of your religion. Both of these fall under the umbrella of “new age” religion even though they are not “new” as you correctly indicate.

Now the inverse:

Insofar as I know, most Muslims don’t consider Bin Laden to be an emissary of Islam.

Again, labels are irrelevant. They are pointers to an underlying belief system which may or may not be true. Nancy Pelosi says she’s a Catholic but Catholics by definition are pro-life and she most certainly is not; therefore she is not a Catholic regardless of the label.

You and I can embrace religious tolerance all we want but we can’t cause our neighbor with the suicide vest to do the same, whether he is nominally a Muslim, a Hindu, or an atheist or something else. You must quickly come to understand that he is evil, that evil men are not entitled to commit mass murder in the name of their religion, and terminate your tolerance of his religion, or he’ll terminate yours very quickly.

From what I have read on my own, there are some strange things in your Bible as well. This is why I am here. To understand.

You’re in the right place for that.

 

[Sufjon]

Cat Herde19611r:

Then God is not knowable at all, and neither of us have a reasonable religion and should become Deists. God forbid.

Knowable yes, but as I said, not with your mind or intellect. Do you understand that?
Cat Herde19611r:

So God did not create the Universe?

Yes, nothing I said suggests that He didn’t.
Cat Herde19611r:

So there is no such thing as say, drug addiction? That stuff definitely changes a person.

If you are addicted to drugs it is a product of where your proclivities or samskara from the past have brought you at that place and time. It will pass.
Cat Herde19611r:

It isn’t the names that cause the divisions. It’s the belief systems.

Many atheists reject that name and say they are “rationalists” or “brights.” But what makes them “rational” or “bright” is the rejection of God. The rejection of God is atheism whether or not they want to accept the name.

As long as you profess pantheism, you are a pantheist regardless of the nominal designation of your religion. Likewise, as long as you assert a balance between good and evil (the Tao), you are a Taoist regardless of the nominal designation of your religion. Both of these fall under the umbrella of “new age” religion even though they are not “new” as you correctly indicate.

I think this is arguing without a point Cat Herder. It appears that you are saying that I am a Pantheist, a Taoist and a New Ager, but I think you had asserted earlier that everything has to be either this or that. Now I am this, that and the other thing. We should probably get back on topic.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[PRmerger]

Knowable yes, but as I said, not with your mind or intellect. Do you understand that?

Did you know, Sufjon, that Jesus said we could know God with our mind, heart, soul and strength?

 

[Sufjon]

Did you know, Sufjon, that Jesus said we could know God with our mind, heart, soul and strength?

Hi PRmerger: I am not familiar with that passage. Can you point me to it?

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Cat_Herder]

Hi PRmerger: I am not familiar with that passage. Can you point me to it?

[BIBLEDRB]Jeremiah 9:23-24[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Jeremiah 24:7[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 10:27[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]Ephesians 1:17-21[/BIBLEDRB]

[BIBLEDRB]2 Cor. 5:17[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[PRmerger]

Hi PRmerger: I am not familiar with that passage. Can you point me to it?

Your friend
Sufjon

See the citations by Cat.

Also, if we cannot know God with our intellect, then the entire academic discipline of Theology is a waste of time. The writings of Augustine, Aquinas, Anselm, Teresa of Avila, Pope JPII and Pope B16 are just wasted paper.

In fact, the CAFs is futile as well. We are all on a wild goose chase!

 

[Sufjon]

See the citations by Cat.

Also, if we cannot know God with our intellect, then the entire academic discipline of Theology is a waste of time. The writings of Augustine, Aquinas, Anselm, Teresa of Avila, Pope JPII and Pope B16 are just wasted paper.

In fact, the CAFs is futile as well. We are all on a wild goose chase!

Hi PRMerger: Study and intellect are methods to gain an understanding of God and part of the path. Knowing Him is a different discipline along the path, of which (according to my beliefs) there are 4 primary components:

-The path of knowledge, wisdom, introspection and contemplation. It involves deep exploration of the nature our being by systematically exploring and setting aside false identities.

-The path of devotion, emotion, love, and compassion.

-The path of action, service to others, mindfulness, and remembering the levels of our being while fulfilling our actions or duties in the world. All actions (even the mundane) are done in the context of remembering the Divine.

-The last and most important is the one where God is encountered. It is a comprehensive method that emphasizes meditation, and directly deals with the encountering and transcending thoughts of the mind.

I believe that Jesus probably practiced all four, since I believe His bodily presence among us was part of a continuum in which He has actively been present among us before the time of the Jesus permutation and has been since as well. The four principle practices were given to us by Him when He came about a thousand years prior to the time He came as Jesus of Nazareth. That is my belief.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Cat_Herder]

Knowing Him is a different discipline along the path, of which there are 4 primary components:

-The path of knowledge, wisdom, introspection and contemplation. It involves deep exploration of the nature our being by systematically exploring and setting aside false identities.

-The path of devotion, emotion, love, compassion, and service to God and others. All actions are done in the context of remembering the Divine.

-The path of action, service to others, mindfulness, and remembering the levels of our being while fulfilling our actions or duties in the world.

-The last and most important is the one where God is encountered. It is a comprehensive method that emphasizes meditation, and directly deals with the encountering and transcending thoughts of the mind.

I believe that Jesus probably practiced all four.

And how would you know that you are actually following any of these paths correctly?

As I showed you, there are sura in the Qur’an which can be interpreted as a license for violent jihad against Christians—so, again, bin Laden may well think he is following the path of “action” by his disgusting terrorist acts.

If you are going by what Jesus taught then why do you reject what He taught about the relationship between man and God, and what His Disciples taught on those points?

 

[Sufjon]

And how would you know that you are actually following any of these paths correctly?

As I showed you, there are sura in the Qur’an which can be interpreted as a license for violent jihad against Christians—so, again, bin Laden may well think he is following the path of “action” by his disgusting terrorist acts.

If you are going by what Jesus taught then why do you reject what He taught about the relationship between man and God, and what His Disciples taught on those points?

Hi Cat Herder:

-I know I am doing it properly, because He gave explicit directions on how to perform these about three thousand years ago. I believe your religion is a continuum of mine, or so I am told. The only time He came where His message took on different meanings by different people was the time He came as Jesus. There is not so much confusion about what He meant the other times. This is my path and my belief system, so it will likely sound rather strange to you.

-I have spent years comparing your scriptures to mine and they match completely. The only parts of your scriptures that confuse me are the things I hear Christians saying, and of course they are saying so many different things. This is why talking to folks like yourself is helpful to me. I appreciate that.

-Insofar as I am aware, I have not rejected any of the teachings of Jesus. On the other hand, I am very curious about the things I hear from His many and diverse followers. Christianity is very unique in that regard. Because I ask a lot of questions about what Christians think or believe, in my mind does not equal any conflict with the teachings of Jesus. His teachings just seem to echo things I have seen Him say before in other times and other places. The only confusing part is the many differing interpretations people are walking around with.

Your friend
Sufjon

 

[Cat_Herder]

Hi Cat Herder: Because He gave explicit directions on how to perform these about three thousand years ago. I believe your religion is a continuum of mine, or so I am told.

If you ask Jesus directly He will tell you that the religion He established is a continuation of Judaism.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 5:17[/BIBLEDRB]

The only time He came where His message took on different meanings by different people was the time He came as Jesus.

Jesus was quite clear that there was only one message that was to be spread by twelve authoritative Apostles.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 28:19[/BIBLEDRB]

Those Apostles appointed priests and ordained successors.

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 1:20[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 14:23[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]2 Tim 2:2[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Titus 1:5[/BIBLEDRB]

Why do you reject them?

This is my path and my belief system, so it will likely sound rather strange to you. I have spent years comparing your scriptures to mine and they match completely. The only parts of your scriptures that confuse me are the things I hear Christians saying, and of course they are saying so many different things.

Maybe you should stop accepting that everyone who says they are a Christian is actually a Christian. Self-identification is meaningless as was made clear above.

Do these so called Christians have any historical link to Jesus Himself? Or were they started by a man with a Bible who said that he, 1500 years removed, knew best about what Jesus taught?

And look at what Jesus actually taught. He didn’t say a word about consciousness, pantheism, Maya or any of that. If He actually believed in any of it, He would have said so—and He didn’t. Neither did his disciples.

The Apostle Thomas actually went to India, where they did believe in consciousness, pantheism and Maya. Do any of the St. Thomas churches believe in consciousness, pantheism or Maya? NO.

 

[PRmerger]

-I have spent years comparing your scriptures to mine and they match completely.

Forgive my skepticism, but I am quite doubtful of this.

No other creature on earth has ever claimed to be God, has ever died and risen, and, most importantly:

offered himself as atonement for the sins of humanity.

Your scriptures claim this?

 

[Sufjon]

If you ask Jesus directly He will tell you that the religion He established is a continuation of Judaism.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 5:17[/BIBLEDRB]

Jesus was quite clear that there was only one message that was to be spread by twelve authoritative Apostles.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 28:19[/BIBLEDRB]

Those Apostles appointed priests and ordained successors.

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 1:20[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 14:23[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]2Tim 2:2[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Titus 1:5[/BIBLEDRB]

Why do you reject them?

Maybe you should stop accepting that everyone who says they are a Christian is actually a Christian. Self-identification is meaningless as was made clear above.

Do these so called Christians have any historical link to Jesus Himself? Or were they started by a man with a Bible who said that he, 1500 years removed, knew best about what Jesus taught?

And look at what Jesus actually taught. He didn’t say a word about consciousness, pantheism, Maya or any of that. If He actually believed in any of it, He would have said so—and He didn’t. Neither did his disciples.

The Apostle Thomas actually went to India, where they did believe in consciousness, pantheism and Maya. Do any of the St. Thomas churches believe in consciousness, pantheism or Maya? NO.

Yes, His message is the same one He had before and has had since. My only questions are about what Christians believe and I am very troubled by the divisions among them and among all Abrahamic religions. For instance, I see Christians pray in public a lot. They seem to always be either thanking for something or asking for something. The only instance where I have seen prayer take the form of sitting down, being quiet and actually listening rather than asking or thanking, but really listening, is among Quakers. Aside from that the only thing in Christianity that to me resembles prayer is the rosary. Because of that I learned it and the fifteen mysteries to meditate on while I say it. It is a very good form of prayer. A nun was kind enough to teach it to me. Aside from the rosary and what I have seen Quakers do, most of what I have seen is what I call the gimmie gimmie gimmies. You have to get rid of the me and the gimmies to find God.

Your freind
Sufjon

 

[PRmerger]

-Insofar as I am aware, I have not rejected any of the teachings of Jesus.

How do you eat his flesh, as commanded in John 6?

And how do you follow the teachings of the Apostles and their successors (that is, the Magisterium of the CC) as commanded in Luke 10:16. Do you know what is in the Catechism, which is the teaching of the Apostles? So you confess your sins to a priest, go to Mass on Sundays?

Do you proclaim that divorce and re-marriage is adultery, as Jesus said in Mark 10?

Have you professed this: “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God” to Jesus, as Peter did in Matt 16?

 

[PRmerger]

Aside from the rosary and what I have seen Quakers do, most of what I have seen is what I call the gimmie gimmie gimmies. You have to get rid of the me and the gimmies to find God.

Your freind
Sufjon

Perhaps you’ve never been to Adoration and Benediction?

Very powerful.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Yes, His message is the same one He had before and has had since. My only questions are about what Christians believe and I am very troubled by the divisions among them and among all Abrahamic religions.

You won’t find that in the Catholic Church.

For instance, I see Christians pray in public a lot. They seem to always be either thanking for something or asking for something. The only instance where I have seen prayer take the form of sitting down, being quiet and actually listening rather than asking or thanking, but really listening, is among Quakers.

The Quakers are really the only Protestants with contemplative prayer, unless you count the very scarce Anglican and Lutheran monastics.

Aside from that the only thing in Christianity that to me resembles prayer is the rosary. Because of that I learned it and the fifteen mysteries to meditate on while I say it. It is a very good form of prayer. A nun was kind enough to teach it to me. Aside from the rosary and what I have seen Quakers do, most of what I have seen is what I call the gimmie gimmie gimmies. You have to get rid of the me and the gimmies to find God.

You’re on to something: God wants to speak to us and we often don’t listen because we are too busy asking for things, especially material goods.

It looks like you haven’t studied the history of the Catholic Church because if you had, you would know that the Church has a long history of meditation and contemplative prayer.

I’m going to turn you over to St. Edith Stein, and I would encourage you to read her writings. She was a Carmelite nun, and so belonged to a contemplative order that goes back to the time of the Prophet Elijah. She was executed by the Nazis at Auschwitz for being Catholic.

 

[Sufjon]

Forgive my skepticism, but I am quite doubtful of this.

No other creature on earth has ever claimed to be God, has ever died and risen, and, most importantly:

offered himself as atonement for the sins of humanity.

Your scriptures claim this?

You have your beliefs, and I am not here to change or disturb those. As I have said, you need to stick to them. My faith is very clear on the idea that we are to leave others to their faiths.

As for my scriptures, you have to do your own saving in my faith. God doesn’t do it for you. The difference is that through hard work, eventually everyone makes it. In my scriptures God says that He loves us, we belong to Him, and He will not ever lose us. We can wander and stray as far as we like, but the final journey will always be the one home. He says He is the Beginning the Middle and the End of all creates and all hearts. The only punishments are the ones we inflict on ourselves, but no one is lost. It would really take me years to explain all of this to you, and I am really not here for that. I am here to learn about you and see where things meet.

Your friend
Sufjon