Been a Muslim for 23 years, I would like to clear misconceptions you have

[Randy_Carson]

But this is not really provided within Islam as such.

Qur’an 2.77-2.79 covers such matter.

theholybook.org/content/view/86/3/ is the main revelation which says this.

Jakkub-

Here is the text you referred us to:

2.79. Woe, then, to those who write the Book with their hands (interpolating into it their readings of the Scriptures and their explanatory notes thereto, stories from their national history, superstitious ideas and fancies, philosophical doctrines and legal rules) and then, in order to sell it for a trifling price (such as worldly benefit, status, and renown), they declare: "This is from God. " So woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they have earned (of the worldly income and the sin thereby).

Can you give us some examples of these “interpolations” from the New Testament?

I think if you’re going to make the blanket charge that our scriptures are corrupt, you ought to provide some evidence.

Thanks.

 

[betsybug354]

Most converts to Islam are women, in the western world young women are the biggest converts to Islam. Many university graduates.

Jakubb - I married a Muslim in 1987, but I was far too stubborn to convert to Islam. Believe me, it wasn’t for a lack of trying to convince myself that Islam was true. That would have resulted in a marital unity I haven’t experienced in nearly 28 years of marriage. However, the more I studied, the more the Qur’an just didn’t add up. Regardless, I have known quite a few Western women who did convert to Islam, many of whom are indeed university graduates. In fact, I suspect most female Muslim converts in the West are university graduates because they meet their Muslim in college. These women converted largely because they wanted to please their husbands, not because they believed Islam was so much better than whatever Christian background they had grown up with. Oftentimes there was also a good deal of family dysfunction and teenage rebelliousness in these girls’ backgrounds. Also, they seemed to desire the discipline that Islam seemed to offer them and that Western society seemed to be lacking. I would be very interested to know the long-term retention rate of these converts to Islam, especially once they are middle-aged and hopefully wiser. Also, what is the divorce rate in such marriages?

 

[Augustine3]

But this is not really provided within Islam as such.

Qur’an 2.77-2.79 covers such matter.

theholybook.org/content/view/86/3/ is the main revelation which says this.

This is where the problem lies. You don’t have any scholarly evidence. All you have is an implicit surah that contradicts history. Don’t you see the problem with this claim?

 

[Jakubb]

Jakkub-

Here is the text you referred us to:

2.79. Woe, then, to those who write the Book with their hands (interpolating into it their readings of the Scriptures and their explanatory notes thereto, stories from their national history, superstitious ideas and fancies, philosophical doctrines and legal rules) and then, in order to sell it for a trifling price (such as worldly benefit, status, and renown), they declare: "This is from God. " So woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they have earned (of the worldly income and the sin thereby).

Can you give us some examples of these “interpolations” from the New Testament?

I think if you’re going to make the blanket charge that our scriptures are corrupt, you ought to provide some evidence.

Thanks.

One example is the claim Jesus(pbuh) is God, something we believe he never said.
Another is that he is the son of God, something we believe he did not say either.

It is clear to us that being the son of God was an invention by writers of the bible and that being God was a later interpretation by others. Such as the holy trinity which makes no sense.

It was that Jesus(pbuh) preached and taught others as a prophet.

 

[Jakubb]

This is where the problem lies. You don’t have any scholarly evidence. All you have is an implicit surah that contradicts history. Don’t you see the problem with this claim?

It is contradicting the bible not history

 

[the_phoenix]

Jakkub-

Here is the text you referred us to:

2.79. Woe, then, to those who write the Book with their hands (interpolating into it their readings of the Scriptures and their explanatory notes thereto, stories from their national history, superstitious ideas and fancies, philosophical doctrines and legal rules) and then, in order to sell it for a trifling price (such as worldly benefit, status, and renown), they declare: "This is from God. " So woe to them for what their hands have written, and woe to them for what they have earned (of the worldly income and the sin thereby).

Can you give us some examples of these “interpolations” from the New Testament?

I think if you’re going to make the blanket charge that our scriptures are corrupt, you ought to provide some evidence.

Thanks.

Interesting. There are verses in the Bible that warn not to add to or take away any of its words. Apparently, Mohammed took his idea for the verses in the Qur’an 2.77-2.79 from the Bible.

From Revelation 22:18-20

[18]For I testify to every one that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add to these things, God shall add unto him the plagues written in this book. [19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from these things that are written in this book. [20] He that giveth testimony of these things, saith, Surely I come quickly: Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

drbo.org/chapter/73022.htm

…

 

[Jakubb]

Jakubb - I married a Muslim in 1987, but I was far too stubborn to convert to Islam. Believe me, it wasn’t for a lack of trying to convince myself that Islam was true. That would have resulted in a marital unity I haven’t experienced in nearly 28 years of marriage. However, the more I studied, the more the Qur’an just didn’t add up. Regardless, I have known quite a few Western women who did convert to Islam, many of whom are indeed university graduates. In fact, I suspect most female Muslim converts in the West are university graduates because they meet their Muslim in college. These women converted largely because they wanted to please their husbands, not because they believed Islam was so much better than whatever Christian background they had grown up with. Oftentimes there was also a good deal of family dysfunction and teenage rebelliousness in these girls’ backgrounds. Also, they seemed to desire the discipline that Islam seemed to offer them and that Western society seemed to be lacking. I would be very interested to know the long-term retention rate of these converts to Islam, especially once they are middle-aged and hopefully wiser. Also, what is the divorce rate in such marriages?

You could be right for your reasons of love. But also many convert and then find love…and this is often the case with these university graduates. They are often smart beautiful women and sometimes they are not religious sometimes they are Christian but they convert to Islam. So why would smart educated women convert to a religion that is bad for women?

Being rebellious or needing discipline is a theory that could be true sometimes, yes. But they still convert and they stay Muslim.

I do not know a covert to Islam that has left Islam at a later date. Yes they may exist but I have never encountered this scenario before.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Let me try to address the point. First we say the bible is corrupted, now when we say corrupted we do not just mean interpolation. But corrupted by the writers of the bible.

Do you have any examples of this from the New Testament?

It has been proven by historians and archaeologists alike to be highly accurate.

The Qur’an is from God directly through revelation to the prophet & recited by others. Where as the bible is not like this.

Oh? The Bible is from God directly through the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit (who is the third person of the Blessed Trinity) to the authors of the Books and Epistles of the Bible.

We do not believe Paul is a prophet. We say between Jesus & Muhammad there were no other prophets in between. So we reject everything that comes from Paul.

You say that Paul is not a prophet. Why?

Couldn’t Christians and Jews say the same about Mohammed?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Jakubb-

You have been speaking of converts, and this is an interesting topic.

Why is that countries that are predominantly or fully Islamic do not allow Christians to discuss religion openly?

If Islam is true, shouldn’t its truth be evident? So, why not allow for discussion of Christianity and Islam equally and allow Islam to win the people’s hearts and minds in open exchange?

This policy gives the appearance that Muslims or Islamic states are afraid of a free exchange of ideas.

In the West, you are allowed to build mosques and gain converts from those who are converted by your ideas.

In your countries (ie, Saudi Arabia), Christians are not allowed to build churches and to engage in missionary activities.

Why are you free to present your ideas and we are not?

 

[Jakubb]

Jakubb-

You have been speaking of converts, and this is an interesting topic.

Why is that countries that are predominantly or fully Islamic do not allow Christians to discuss religion openly?

If Islam is right, shouldn’t its truth be evident?

This policy gives the appearance that Muslims or Islamic states are afraid of a free exchange of ideas.

In the West, you are allowed to build mosques and gain converts from those who are converted by your ideas.

In your countries (ie, Saudi Arabia), Christians are not allowed to build churches and to engage in missionary activities.

Why are you free to present your ideas and we are not?

Some Islamic understanding views apostasy from Islam as a big crime so this is why others are not allowed to try and convert Muslims or spread their faith in Muslim lands.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Some Islamic understanding views apostasy from Islam as a big crime so this is why others are not allowed to try and convert Muslims or spread their faith in Muslim lands.

Fair enough. However, you are being given an opportunity to express your ideas about Islam in this forum and even to point out what you perceive to be problems with Christianity.

Nice, huh?

But I would be arrested and probably executed in many parts of the world controlled by Islam if I shared my views about Muhammad.

And this is the truth: I do not always say exactly what I think about Islam even in this forum because I have chosen to use my real name (rather than hiding behind a “screen name”), and I am concerned that I might be beheaded in my driveway by some Muslim who takes offense at what I post here.

You don’t have that fear, do you? :nope:

 

[Jakubb]

Fair enough. However, you are being given an opportunity to express your ideas about Islam in this forum and even to point out what you perceive to be problems with Christianity.

Nice, huh?

But I would be arrested and probably executed in many parts of the world controlled by Islam if I shared my views about Muhammad.

And this is the truth: I do not always say exactly what I think about Islam even in this forum because I have chosen to use my real name (rather than hiding behind a “screen name”), and I am concerned that I might be beheaded in my driveway by some Muslim who takes offense at what I post here.

You don’t have that fear, do you? :nope:

I like Catholics I have known many. People can insult Islam if they want, mostly in the west it is not us that complain, it is others on behalf of us.

Islam is an aggressive religion because we say weak religions do not survive. So people try to terrorize others so they are scared to attack Islam. Then Islam can get the message of Allah across to the world.

quranexplorer.com/hadith/english/Hadith/bukhari/004.052.220.html

 

[Randy_Carson]

The Qur’an says that the books of Moses, the Psalms, and the gospel were all given by God.

Torah
“We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers,” (Sura 2:87).1

Psalms
“We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms,” (4:163).

Gospel
“It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong),” (3:3).

“And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah,” (5:46).

We see that the Qur’an states that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel were all given by God. With this, we Christians heartily agree. But, the Muslims claim that the Bible is corrupted and full of contradictions. If that is so, then it would seem they do not believe the Qur’an since the Qur’an says that the Word of God cannot be altered:

“Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers,” (6:34).

“The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all,” (6:115).

“For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity,” (10:64).

When Muhammad (570-632) was alive, he claimed to receive the revelation of the Qur’an from Allah. This means that at that time, the Bible, which was in existence, could not have been corrupted because the Qur’an states that God’s word cannot be corrupted.

The question is: When and where was the Bible corrupted since the Qur’an says that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are from Allah, and Allah’s words cannot be changed?

And again, can you quote some specific examples of this “corruption” from the New Testament?

Thanks.

 

[Jakubb]

The Qur’an says that the books of Moses, the Psalms, and the gospel were all given by God.

Torah
“We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers,” (Sura 2:87).1

Psalms
“We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms,” (4:163).

Gospel
“It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong),” (3:3).

“And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah,” (5:46).

We see that the Qur’an states that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel were all given by God. With this, we Christians heartily agree. But, the Muslims claim that the Bible is corrupted and full of contradictions. If that is so, then it would seem they do not believe the Qur’an since the Qur’an says that the Word of God cannot be altered:

“Rejected were the messengers before thee: with patience and constancy they bore their rejection and their wrongs, until Our aid did reach them: there is none that can alter the words (and decrees) of Allah. Already hast thou received some account of those messengers,” (6:34).

“The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfillment in truth and in justice: None can change His words: for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all,” (6:115).

“For them are glad tidings, in the life of the present and in the Hereafter; no change can there be in the words of Allah. This is indeed the supreme felicity,” (10:64).

When Muhammad (570-632) was alive, he claimed to receive the revelation of the Qur’an from Allah. This means that at that time, the Bible, which was in existence, could not have been corrupted because the Qur’an states that God’s word cannot be corrupted.

The question is: When and where was the Bible corrupted since the Qur’an says that the Torah, the Psalms, and the Gospel are from Allah, and Allah’s words cannot be changed?

The Qur’an says the bible was interpolated. Allah’s words in the Qur’an cannot be changed is the meaning of this verse.

 

[the_phoenix]

Islam is an aggressive religion …

I am going to continue praying the daily Rosary
for the conversion of the Muslims.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The Qur’an says the bible was interpolated. Allah’s words in the Qur’an cannot be changed is the meaning of this verse.

Which verse?

So, the Word of Allah can be corrupted in some places but not in others?

Or why would Allah allow this to happen to his Word given to Moses and David, etc. but not to the Word given to Muhammad?

Is Allah’s Word to Moses less valuable? Is ANYTHING from Allah not priceless?

If Allah can protect the Qur’an from corruption, why was he unable to prevent corruption to his previously given Word?

 

[betsybug354]

I Islam is an aggressive religion because we say weak religions do not survive. So people try to terrorize others so they are scared to attack Islam. Then Islam can get the message of Allah across to the world.

What, in your estimation, would define a religion as “weak”? Lacking truth? Lacking faithful adherents? Then would you say that most religions are man-made? Is the strongest religion the one, in your estimation, that contains the most truth, or that has the most adherents, or that has come along most recently (so it didn’t have time to get corrupted like those, supposedly, that were abrogated)? Must you be aggressive to be strong? As a Christian I would define strength as spiritual, not physical. It is the strength of my love for Christ and others that truly matters.

 

[Jakubb]

Which verse?

So, the Word of Allah can be corrupted in some places but not in others?

Or why would Allah allow this to happen to his Word given to Moses and David, etc. but not to the Word given to Muhammad?

Is Allah’s Word to Moses less valuable? Is ANYTHING from Allah not priceless?

If Allah can protect the Qur’an from corruption, why was he unable to prevent corruption to his previously given Word?

It is Muslims that protect the Qur’an from corruption by assuring a word is never changed. This is the verse. Allah is saying his words can never be changed. So Muslims must protect the Qur’an from interpolation or any such things.

 

[dronald]

It is Muslims that protect the Qur’an from corruption by assuring a word is never changed. This is the verse. Allah is saying his words can never be changed. So Muslims must protect the Qur’an from interpolation or any such things.

You said that Jesus and Jesus’s Disciples were Muslims. Why couldn’t they protect the Injil?

 

[joe371]

It is Muslims that protect the Qur’an from corruption by assuring a word is never changed. This is the verse. Allah is saying his words can never be changed. So Muslims must protect the Qur’an from interpolation or any such things.

Everything you have mentioned is certainly the beliefs of the members of the Islam religion, and I respect that. However, until you provide sustainable proof for your assertions about the Bible being corrupt, from vetted sources, why would anyone, Muslim or Christian, view what you said as an accurate assessment? Say it, but prove it too! Or, is it a faith-based assertion to claim that the Quran is the only accurate source of divine guidance?

I thought the Qur’an could be used to prove the authenticity of the holy Bible:

Sura 46:12: “Yet before it there was the Book of Moses which was an authority, and a mercy. This (the Qur’an) is the Book confirming it in the Arabic tongue…”