Beer and the Church

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WHCSC:
Orionthehunter-your demeaning tone does not further your argument.

I’m sorry that you can’t see the difference in this issue. If I can help someone else by making such a small sacrifice, I will do it gladly. You, of course, have free will to choose not to.
Demeaning? I’m sorry you interpreted it as demeaning. My intent was to use irony to show that the issue isn’t simple. I think I reacted to what I interpreted as sanctimony (I’m willing to sacrifice and your are not). I’m sure that wasn’t your intent.

I understand personally and firsthand the issues of alcoholism. My father ultimately died because he could never kick the habit (it wasn’t the direct cause but indirectly from years of abusing his body). One of my best friends went thru treatment only 10 months ago. My wife worked years ago in a rehab facility as she is also a child of an alcholic. As we both know alcohol problems run in our family, except for special circumstances, we never consume alcohol more than once a week and when we do it is seldom more than one or two drinks.

And, I think the implication in Estesbob’s post is consistent with ours. The problem of alcoholism is first a problem of the drinker. Sobriety depends on them facing this fact. They can’t blame others for their problem. When those around the alcoholic treat it like the elephant in the room that nobody talks about or tries to protect the alcoholic at all costs, it is a different form of enabling. While grounded in the best of intentions, enabling is an insidous obstacle to first getting help and then (after rehab) to full recovery.

The reality is that alcohol is a problem for a group among us. We need to stand behind them and assist them in their recovery. However, the assistance has to be direct (friend-to-friend) and not indirect (trying to remove the temptation in every and all situations) as ultimately we have to help them learn to live in sobriety in society.

In my mind, rather than prohibiting it situations where in that locality alcohol consumption is ordinary and customary, you should search out someone who you think will be tempted and be with them as a friend during the social function. Help them integrate and become comfortable not drinking while others are. Depending on where they are in their recovery, you might drink lemonade with them or you might have a beer.

This is how we helped my friend who recently went thru treatment. We continued to golf with him on our regular Men’s Day and on Saturday morning. At first, after golf, we left the course and went to eat at a place that didn’t serve alcohol. But as soon as we thought him ready, we stayed at the course for dinner and allowed him to get comfortable having ice tea while people at other tables had their drinks. Maybe this summer, he might even stick around and play cards or we might consume a beer in his presence.

My point is that if a person never learns to live among society there can develop isolation and loss of friendships, which can be a major cause of relapse. And reality is that over half the people who are sober had a relapse. Integration by friends and vigilance by the alcoholic are the keys to success. And, unfortunately, we have to accept that for some relapse is a necessary step to permanent recovery. Have you ever heard the expression “dry drunk”? It refers to a person who substitutes their dependence on alcohol with another dependancy. This is a psuedo-recovery and not truly healthy. True recovery requires they rid themselves from all unhealthy dependencies.

Finally, if every church social event involves alcohol, the parish needs to reconsider their make-up of events. But occassionally having the parish provide mechanisms for a gradual integration is part of supporting these people among us with this particular cross.
 
If your friend, who just went through treatment, were coming over for dinner, would you drink alcohol?

I understand your points. We just see it differently.
 
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WHCSC:
If your friend, who just went through treatment, were coming over for dinner, would you drink alcohol?

I understand your points. We just see it differently.
Peace.

I think what has been stated is the creation of levels of response. In more intimate surroundings, where the parties have a personal kinship toward one another, I suspect there would be more sensitivity in not serving alcohol, particularly if the individual is straight out of rehab; however, in a more public setting it would be difficult to assign a prohibition. We are not talking insensitivity or callousness, but rather an empathy combined with a practicality: We can appreciate the difficultly and hardships a person faces, but that does not mean an across the board cleansing of lifestyles and activities of those who are not in a similar situation. Many of us have our own addictions, demons, and issues to contend with so if we cater toward one particular situation then where do we begin to draw the line?

Peace.
 
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WHCSC:
If your friend, who just went through treatment, were coming over for dinner, would you drink alcohol?

I understand your points. We just see it differently.
🙂 Well, at least we now just see it differently and there isn’t necessarily a wrong or right answer (this is the lesson of Romans 14).

To answer your question, he and his wife have been over three times in the past 9 months. No alcohol has been served or consumed. But I’m not saying that there might not be a day when that might not be the case. It might just be that my having a beer at some future point might attest to my trust and respect in his accomplishment. Prudence will be the guide.
 
My husband is a recovering alcoholic who has attended church functions where alcohol was being served. It was not a problem for him…and I supported him by not drinking myself.
 
What does serving alcohol bring to these events that would make them less enjoyable without it?

Sure, we shouldn’t HAVE to cater to those who struggle with alcohol, but why not? What does it hurt? Is it just the principle
of it?
Obviously, I’m not a drinker. If the church decided not to serve beer at a parish picnic, would that stop you from going?
 
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WHCSC:
What does serving alcohol bring to these events that would make them less enjoyable without it?

Sure, we shouldn’t HAVE to cater to those who struggle with alcohol, but why not? What does it hurt? Is it just the principle
of it? Obviously, I’m not a drinker. If the church decided not to serve beer at a parish picnic, would that stop you from going?
Peace.

I just fail to see what the big issue is? Alternate drinks are available so it is not as if it is an all-or-nothing proposal.

Peace.
 
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WHCSC:
What does serving alcohol bring to these events that would make them less enjoyable without it?

Sure, we shouldn’t HAVE to cater to those who struggle with alcohol, but why not? What does it hurt? Is it just the principle
of it?
Obviously, I’m not a drinker. If the church decided not to serve beer at a parish picnic, would that stop you from going?
Cater is the operative word. It is condescending as it implies “I’m sacrificing for you” and related to the well-intentioned enabling that is the demise of so many people who struggle with different forms of dependency.

My father went thru treatment more times the Liz Taylor had husbands. All of his failures were related to people (esp. my mother) failing to make him face the fact that his problem was his problem and not those around him. An alcoholic prior to quitting will blame everyone around him for his drinking and lie to protect himself from the consequences. If he relapses, you can rest assured that he’ll claim it was someone elses fault. Sobriety absolutely depends on the person taking responsibility for his own actions “one day at a time.”

As long as alcohol is legal in this country, if you talk to any alcohol counselor or heed the advice of the people who are successfully dealing with alcoholism (either as the person in recovery or family) who posted on here, all of them would tell you that protecting them from ever being in the presence of alcohol for all-time is counter-productive.

Integration is the key. And while you obviously disagree, I believe that integration at a parish event where 100% of the people have your best interests at heart is a darn good place to start.
 
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Orionthehunter:
Cater is the operative word. It is condescending as it implies “I’m sacrificing for you” and related to the well-intentioned enabling that is the demise of so many people who struggle with different forms of dependency.

Sobriety absolutely depends on the person taking responsibility for his own actions “one day at a time.”

As long as alcohol is legal in this country, if you talk to any alcohol counselor or heed the advice of the people who are successfully dealing with alcoholism (either as the person in recovery or family) who posted on here, all of them would tell you that protecting them from ever being in the presence of alcohol for all-time is counter-productive.

.
Exactly. I am responsible for maintaining my sobriety. not you, not the Church, not society. If one is a recovering alchohlic and is not comfortable being at a function where alchohol is served they should refrain from attending. I commend the lady who said she doesnt drink at these functions out of respect for her husband. That is not absolute , however. I have asked my wife to order a drink for herself when we are having dinner with new frineds who are aware of my alchoholism but not sure if it is OK to drink in front of me.

When my daughter got married alchhohol was served at her reception. I would not have had it any other way.
 
Well heres St Brigid’s take on beer:

I would like the angels of Heaven to be among us. I would like an abundance of peace. I would like full vessels of charity. I would like rich treasures of mercy. I would like cheerfulness to preside over all. I would like Jesus to be present. I would like the three Marys of illustrious renown to be with us. I would like the friends of Heaven to be gathered around us from all parts. I would like myself to be a rent payer to the Lord; that I should suffer distress, that he would bestow a good blessing upon me. I would like a great lake of beer for the King of Kings. I would like to be watching Heaven’s family drinking it through all eternity.

Saint Brigid
 
AA, while well-intentioned, does not really work for most people. There is a better, surprisingly effective alternative to a lifetime of struggling under the “disease” model of addiction: Rational Recovery.

rational.org/

God bless,
Paul
 
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PaulDupre:
AA, while well-intentioned, does not really work for most people. There is a better, surprisingly effective alternative to a lifetime of struggling under the “disease” model of addiction: Rational Recovery.

rational.org/

God bless,
Paul
Over the last 60 years alternative recovery programs come and go-only AA Perserveres. If you think this other organization is worthwhile thats fine but please dont try to promote it at the expense of AA. Your comment about AA members struggling under the “dieseae model” of addiction shows such a profound ignorance of what AA is all about that it really does sap your credibiltiy when promoting this years “NEW IMPROVED ALTERNATIVE” to AA You sound a bit like Tom Cruise when he claimed only Scientology was proven to cure addiction.
 
I recently invited a Mormon friend to our parish’s ICF fishfry and she was suprised to see beer and wine being offered at a church function. Oh well… and St. Patrick’s day is coming . Enjoy!
 
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Exodus15:
I recently invited a Mormon friend to our parish’s ICF fishfry and she was suprised to see beer and wine being offered at a church function. Oh well… and St. Patrick’s day is coming . Enjoy!
Peace.

And since they do not drink cafeeine products…hope there was bottled water.

Peace.
 
If you assume that someone will overindulge said:
Two quick points (not pints). 1. It seems to me with the logic of the statement above that our Lord should eliminate for us the opportunity to sin, because we all know that someone will. Probably oversimplifying, but we can consider the occasion an opportunity to exercise discipline.
  1. Schönbuch Brau Export is really good from the tap and I’m looking forward to spring (frühling) and some Radler.
 
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