Before God??

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You are only a patient guy by your own presumptive standard. You take the first opportunity to imagine a possible flaw and run with it. That is what presumption IS.
Now who’s being presumptuous? The fact is, you only need one flaw. Or do you disagree? How many flaws in the evidence for something should we just overlook?
And it is why you can’t “see” the evidence, because you are not actually looking at what is being presented, but rather looking for the tiniest excuse to proclaim doubt before you have even really seen what is said.
In your opinion. Mine is different, and just as valid. So there’s no mileage here. Present some evidence of your claims, then let’s start there.
There you go again. READ the post. I said, “they have to have the humility to accept that their prior…”. What you assumed was that I meant that they must not question, but just accept. That is NOT what “humility” means and I already explained that the person must have humility "to reality",… not to ME. Again you substitute your presumption of an error into what I said.
No, I took your comment at face value. You said, effectively, that people should not be so arrogant as to believe what they believe, that they should willingly abandon their beliefs without being given sufficient reason to do so. You can adjust the focus of your comment to settle on the meaning of humility if you like, but I addressed the actual point which was that people should just believe something new because you said so.
I cannot assure you that you will not presume error so fast that you never actually see what I say. In person, I can do that, but one online.
Well, ain’t that convenient! If you can’t do it online, why don’t you just remove yourself from these threads and start knocking on doors?
YOU have to stop YOURSELF from assuming things are being said that really are NOT being said. Look for the possibility of truth before the probability of error, else you will always be blinded by your own emotions.
Maybe you just need to be more accurate in the things you say.
I have never set out to convert anyone. I have had other things to accomplish and when atheism gets in the way (occasionally) I immediately remove it and go on. What I noticed was how easy it is in the right environment. But in total, I have probably done so to maybe 15-20.
“I immediately remove it?” Do you have any idea how arrogant (or possibly murderous:)) you sound? What “things” did you have to accomplish, and how did atheism get in the way?
As I said, I don’t go out looking for atheists to convert. If they are not looking for me, they have to depend on accidental discovery.
They have to depend? You make it sounds like all atheists are desperate to believe in God but can’t quite work out how to do it!
**"**The teacher appears when the student is ready". That statement is true because the student isn’t really listening. He is (they are) ready when he desires the real understanding more than he lusts to presume (mental blindness).
I really believe that you believe this.
 
You merely choose to see what you choose to see with everything you read. :rolleyes:

But enough explaining it. If you think I have said something that I know I haven’t said, I’ll just ignore your reply. Not a problem.
 
…you’re just saying, “Assume you’re wrong, and you’ll see I’m right,” which doesn’t sound very logical to me!
I think this is a very interesting point: what if you did assume you were wrong, and then you *did *see that James was right? There’s nothing illogical or trivial about that, it seems - it would be an interesting scenario. What to make of it?
 
“[St. Anselm] states clearly that whoever attempts to theologize cannot just count on his intelligence, but must cultivate at the same time a profound experience of faith,” the Holy Father [Benedict XVI] noted. "According to St. Anselm, the activity of a theologian, therefore, develops in three stages: faith, free gift of God that must be received with humility; experience, which consists in the incarnation of the word of God in one’s daily life; and lastly true knowledge, which is never the fruit of aseptic thoughts, but of a contemplative intuition.

“Hence, his famous words continue to be very useful also today for a healthy theological research and for anyone who wishes to go deeper in the truths of the faith: ‘I do not presume, Lord, to penetrate in your profundity, because I cannot even from afar confront my intellect with it; but I wish to understand, at least to a certain point, your truth, which my heart believes and loves. I do not seek to understand to believe, but I believe in order to understand.’”
 
Not actually. Our minds and senses are very specifically formed to detect and deal with only the relevant.
Not all things (even relevant things) are detectable by the senses. Any “logical being” (that is, any kind of things that can exist in the mind and not in reality), such as … well … logic, or the idea of negation and privation (and there’s a bunch of other stuff) … does not exist in reality and cannot be detected by the sense. Nonetheless, it has a foundation in the reality … but certainly does not exist in reality.
Even if there was some irrelevant existence somewhere, we could never detect it nor have any constructive thoughts concerning it. The fact that we imagine things, is merely a perturbation of our effort to analyze relevant existence.

To humans, and all creatures really, existence and relevance are identical other than one indicating more significance or priority.
I would say, since we can make the distinction between relevance and existence, we shouldn’t therefore say that they are the exact same thing. Even you, as your wrote here, conceptually distinguished the two in you hypothetically said “if there was some irrelevant existence somewhere …”

Also, certain things are more or less relevant to certain people, but I would not then say that they exist more or less for certain people. The result of your thinking can end up as a kind of relativism/subjectivism.
To me, that is the technical truth of it. In ancient Greece, they would argue that principles don’t actually exist. The is an old Plato issue. But actually as long as a principle is being physically realized, the principle itself has physical actuality. Thus angels pop in and out of physical existence as they become used or not used. In the divine realm, they are always present at all times.
You seem to be getting two uses of the word “physical” confused with each other. The more modern day usage means, more or less, the equivalent of “material” or “corporeal.” However, the older use simply meant anything that had real actuality. Thus, hypothetically, an angel, whether he intervenes in the material universe or not, has physical existence (as long as God has given him existence).
But I did NOT say that God is not spirit. As I just explained, the divine things become physical things when and only when they are manifest in the physical world. But when is God NOT manifest in the physical world? - Never.
I agree that God is constantly acting in the material universe (by the doctrine of conservation). However, I would not say that God (in his divine essence) is physical, in the sense of being corporeal (except only with the Incarnation, of course). God is certainly physical in the sense of actually existing, and he has this kind of physical existence independent of the material universe and whether we were created or not, etc. The universe didn’t have to exist, but that doesn’t change the fact that God would exist nonetheless.
 
Not all things (even relevant things) are detectable by the senses.
I didn’t say they were. You seem to keep reversing my logic. 🙂

I said that your mind and senses are specifically designed to detect relevance. I did NOT say that all relevance is only what can be detected.

Existence is actually only that which has affect (the potential to change something else). It is by this that all relevance is established. If something were said to exist yet have no effect at all, then by what incentive would anyone care if it existed?

Existence == the ability to effect == relevance.
 
I didn’t say they were. You seem to keep reversing my logic. 🙂
Sorry.
Existence is actually only that which has affect (the potential to change something else).
This is a blind assertion. And an untrue one. You yourself said, hypothetically, that there could be such a thing as a being which had no effect on anything.
If something were said to exist yet have no effect at all, then by what incentive would anyone care if it existed?
The question “whether a thing exists” and “whether anyone cares if it exists” are two different questions. So, regarding a thing that exists but has no effect, the answer to the first question would be “yes” and the answer to the second question would be “no.” Two different questions with two different answer. Thus, existence and relevance are two different things.
 
This is a blind assertion. And an untrue one. You yourself said, hypothetically, that there could be such a thing as a being which had no effect on anything.
Did you read the thread on “Rational Definition of Existence”?

And no, I never said that anything existed yet had no effect.
The question “whether a thing exists” and “whether anyone cares if it exists” are two different questions.
My whole point is that those seemingly different things are really the same thing once you examine them close enough.

As it turns out, the only reason you care if something exists and the only reason anyone ever declares that something exists are the same reason. Thus they really are the same thing.
 
Did you read the thread on “Rational Definition of Existence”?
No, sorry.
And no, I never said that anything existed yet had no effect.
You said that an irrelevant existing thing could exist hypothetically, when you said …
Even if there was some irrelevant existence somewhere, we could never detect it nor have any constructive thoughts concerning it.
See what I’m saying?
My whole point is that those seemingly different things are really the same thing once you examine them close enough.

As it turns out, the only reason you care if something exists and the only reason anyone ever declares that something exists are the same reason. Thus they really are the same thing.
The relationship between “the reason you care if something exists” and “the reason anyone ever declares that something exists” may always go together. I would not declare that they are the same thing … but really this is not what I’m disputing.

What I am disputing is that “the reason you care if something exists” and “the truth that something exists” are different. One does not have to declare or care that something exists in order for it to exist. It can exist independently of people’s opinions or concerns.

What you seem to be arguing is something in line with the modernist philosopher Berkeley, who said (and I might mischaracterize this) that things exist by our apprehension of them. If we do not apprehend them, they do not exist. This of course is an absurd position. Maybe that’s not what you’re saying though.
 
No, sorry.
Your argument is more suited for that thread as it goes into the subject in more detail.
You said that an irrelevant existing thing could exist hypothetically, when you said …
“Existing hypothetically” does not equate to existing. I said “Even if there was some irrelevant existence somewhere,…” and that is not declaring that there is actually any existence anywhere.
The relationship between “the reason you care if something exists” and “the reason anyone ever declares that something exists” may always go together. I would not declare that they are the same thing … but really this is not what I’m disputing.
But that is the only concern I am talking about.
What I am disputing is that “the reason you care if something exists” and “the truth that something exists” are different. One does not have to declare or care that something exists in order for it to exist. It can exist independently of people’s opinions or concerns.

What you seem to be arguing is something in line with the modernist philosopher Berkeley, who said (and I might mischaracterize this) that things exist by our apprehension of them. If we do not apprehend them, they do not exist. This of course is an absurd position. Maybe that’s not what you’re saying though.
That is NOT what I am talking about and I agree with you on that issue.
 
Things can only be “shown” by the effect they have, thus you could not show any effect because by its definition, it has none.
Okay, then turn my question around - for a given effect, how do you know what’s caused it?
 
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