Before Jesus was another virgin birth in a stable, crucifixition and resurrection

[JustinMartyr100]

Below are some quotes from another site:

altreligion.about.com/library/weekly/aa052902a.htm

Hundreds of years before Jesus, there was a passion story told about a God man, born of a virgin mother, in a stable. He travels about with his followers, preaching and performing miracles, including turning water into wine. Eventually, he incurs the wrath of the religious authorities, who are appalled that he refers to himself as the son of god. He allows himself to be arrested and tried for blasphemy- a willing self-sacrifice. He is found guilty and executed, only to rise from the grave three days later, where the women weeping at his tomb do not recognize him until he assumes his divine form. This god, also one of the first depicted crucified, is the vine-God Dionysus.

Consider this- several other Gods share the December birthday, and like Mithras, they are also solar deities, who are born in the winter solstices, often of virgin mothers, die, and are reborn. One of these, a pre-Christian deity called Attis, was called “The lamb of God,” and his crucifixion and subsequent resurrection were celebrated annually, with ritual communions of bread and wine.

Mithras was also born in a cave, with shepherds in attendance

An inscription in the Vatican states plainly, “He who will not eat of my body, nor drink of my blood, so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved.” This is not terribly surprising, unless you consider that this is inscribed on the remains of the temple the Vatican was built on- one dedicated to the God Mithras.

Of course, later Christians were terribly perturbed by these similarities to Pagan religions- these coincidences so disturbed one early Christian church father, Justin Martyr, that he accused the devil of sending an imitator of Christ in advance.

How do we handle these objections? Is there any apologetic work done on this already?

 

[johnnycatholic]

Some resources against the Da Vinci Load (Da Vinci Hoax, etc.) deal with some of these objections.
Also, a birth in a cave is not the same as a birth in a stable.
Regarding the inscription in the Vatican, i don’t believe that the inscription was in reference to Mithras. The way the quote is worded, it could be either a Christian or Mithraic inscription, it does not say that it IS.
Okay, in the Da Vinci Hoax, the authors tell us that there is no evidence that the Mithraic cult existed before the mid-first century. That means they ripped us off, not vice versa. These cults fluorished during the third and fourth centuries. The New Testament had already been written and Christ had already lived. So there.
I was going to go on, but that really answers all of those stupid objections.
Also, contrary to popular belief, there is no ancient myth saying that Mithra died, was buried in a rock tomb, and was resurrected three days later. That is incorrect.
The problem is that some people are so desperate to discredit Christianity, they never double check their sources’ research. It’s usually 1000% B.S. And if you have someone reading this ****, they probably wouldn’t believe the truth if it died on the cross for them.
Also, i have read a ton of Greek and Roman mythology and that is the first time i had ever heard that about Dionysus (or Bacchus). I think your source is wrong.

 

[Fidelis]

Not directly to the point (and no slam to the OP who is just asking the question), but didja ever notice how around Christmastime (and Easter) the same old crass anti-Catholic and anti-Christian baloney that’s been refuted countless times rears it’s ignorant and ugly head?

It’s like all the people who hate the Catholic Church in particular and Christianity in general come out from under their rocks this time of year, either because they feel guilty for abandoning the practice of the Faith, or they otherwise can’t stand to see people deriving joy from something they don’t personally beleive in.

 

[Malcolm_McLean]

Below are some quotes from another site:

Hundreds of years before Jesus, there was a passion story told about a God man, born of a virgin mother, in a stable. He travels about with his followers, preaching and performing miracles, including turning water into wine. Eventually, he incurs the wrath of the religious authorities, who are appalled that he refers to himself as the son of god. He allows himself to be arrested and tried for blasphemy- a willing self-sacrifice. He is found guilty and executed, only to rise from the grave three days later, where the women weeping at his tomb do not recognize him until he assumes his divine form. This god, also one of the first depicted crucified, is the vine-God Dionysus.

Quote:
Consider this- several other Gods share the December birthday, and like Mithras, they are also solar deities, who are born in the winter solstices, often of virgin mothers, die, and are reborn. One of these, a pre-Christian deity called Attis, was called “The lamb of God,” and his crucifixion and subsequent resurrection were celebrated annually, with ritual communions of bread and wine.

Quote:
Mithras was also born in a cave, with shepherds in attendance

Quote:
An inscription in the Vatican states plainly, “He who will not eat of my body, nor drink of my blood, so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved.” This is not terribly surprising, unless you consider that this is inscribed on the remains of the temple the Vatican was built on- one dedicated to the God Mithras.

Quote:
Of course, later Christians were terribly perturbed by these similarities to Pagan religions- these coincidences so disturbed one early Christian church father, Justin Martyr, that he accused the devil of sending an imitator of Christ in advance

altreligion.about.com/library/weekly/aa052902a.htm

How do we handle these objections? Is there any apologetic work done on this already?

Download my book 12 Common Atheist Arguments (refuted), and read the chapter on “The Mithras Argument”.

There are something like ten thousand known gods in world myhtologies, and obviously it is impossible to know exactly when someone will pick on some similarity between one of them and Jesus.
Since Jesus consecrated wine, there is a real point of similarity to Bacchus/Dionysus. However the Bacchic orgies do not have much resemblance to Christian rituals. Dionysus is not mentioned once in the New Testament, compared to hundreds of references to the Jewish scriptures. So why go straining after vague similarities and ignore the influence under your nose?

 

[PhilVaz]

Justin << How do we handle these objections? Is there any apologetic work done on this already? >>

They’ve been pounded into the ground by Tektonics.org who has a whole page dedicated to them. See this series of articles

Confronting the Copycat Thesis by J. P. Holding and others

I find J. P. Holding’s sources are good, and he seems to know the material. I am presently doing a similar study into all of them. After watching “The God Who Wasn’t There” by Brian Flemming I’m inspired to write my own response. The DVD www.TheGodMovie.com has a background graphic that displays the classic “Sixteen Crucified Saviors” (actually 17), by 19th century writer Kersey Graves but they concentrate on mainly three: Dionysos (Greek god of wine, sometimes spelled Dionysus), Osiris (Egyptian god), and Mithras (Persian / Roman god). Attis, Adonis, Hercules, and a few others are also mentioned by name.

None of them are even claimed to have been crucified, died, buried, and resurrected bodily. Some of them did “ascend to heaven” but as the article below by GDon comments, “not sure where else gods are supposed to go.” Some of them were modeled after Jesus’ life well into the Christian era (A.D. not B.C.). Some of them were indeed gods who became (or manifested) as men, or men who became gods, but their lives (births and deaths especially) do not parallel Jesus at all.

Apparently Mithras did have a similar “liturgy” that involved bread and wine. And we do get the “December 25” date from the pagans, but we “converted” the holiday: see my Christmas and Santa / Satan article.

There is very little evidence in support of the stories of these gods (mainly Greek, Egyptian, or Roman, etc) compared with the wealth of New Testament and other evidence (that Jesus lived, performed miracles, and died by crucifixion, etc).

Bookmark this page, I’ll be doing a write-up on all of them. My primary source is The Encyclopedia of Religion, multiple volumes edited by Mircea Eliade in 1987. Scholarly resource. Of the 17 “gods” about 10 of them have their own articles in this encyclopedia, the rest are too obscure to be even mentioned. There are also write ups on Mithraism and the pagan symbolic dying/rising gods in the New Catholic Encyclopedia (2nd edition, 2003).

Bottom line is that article on About.com does not hold up to scrutiny, but you will find it “corroborated” on a lot of bogus web sites who pass along poorly documented “research.” If you rely on standard encyclopedias or books by university presses that you can find at your local public or university library you are safe. I haven’t checked how reliable Wikipedia is on these gods, but I normally find that a decent source too (even though anyone can edit those articles).

See these articles:

Analysis of The God Who Wasn’t There DVD by GDon
Review and Critique of the DVD by Mike Licona
Kersey Graves and his book by skeptic Richard Carrier
Also this MP3 of Brian Flemming himself admitting that “Kersey Graves is full of c–p”

Phil P

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

That is just the olde CopyCat Thesis which historians do not take seriously. This website deals with those type of claims,

tektonics.org/copycat/copycathub.html

tektonics.org/copycat/mithra.html

tektonics.org/copycat/dionysus.html

 

[skfy]

Funny how a God needs people like you guys to think of excuses

 

[thesmiter1]

Funny how a God needs people like you guys to think of excuses

Funny how God has enemies who need to make up such ridiculous arguments to try and disprove Him so they can bring other people to their level of misery and emptiness, believing that something came from nothing, and that any of their self worth comes from social constructs and delusion.

Oh, and you didn’t actually respond to the successful defense against the senseless **** you atheists made up.

For having no belief in God, you atheists sure hate Him quite a bit. Don’t worry, I’ll pray for you. Just know that you are loved!

 

[Monkey1976]

From your namesake:

St. Justin Martyr, First Apology, Ch. 66:

For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do in remembrance of Me, this is My body;” and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood;” and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

 

[Actaeon]

Below are some quotes from another site:

altreligion.about.com/library/weekly/aa052902a.htm

How do we handle these objections? Is there any apologetic work done on this already?

First, the burden of proof lies on those making the claims… not on us.

Second, there are NO mithraic writings left today. The only mentions of mithraic doctrine do not appear until well into the second century, and most in the 3rd century. Because mithraic beliefs that we know about do not resemble ANY other known persian sort of mythology, it’s presumed by scholars that mithraism in the Roman empire changed when it was adopted in the west and actually borrowed from the rapidly growing Christian church (and from Judaism as well). No serious scholar has ever asserted that Christianity derived from mithraism (since no primary source documents back that fact in any way, shape, or form).

Source can be found here: thefaithfulword.org/mithra.html

 

[Farsight001]

Below are some quotes from another site:

altreligion.about.com/library/weekly/aa052902a.htm

How do we handle these objections? Is there any apologetic work done on this already?

You handle it by asking for historical evidence. Those claims are largely gibberish. Mithra wasn’t born in a cave. He created himself out of a rock. Plus Mithraism was a mystery religion. Other than two simple, non-revealing, carvings, there is no record of the Mithraic religion until centuries after Christ.

 

[1ke]

People, this is a 6 year old thread. I reported it to the Mods, not sure why it is still open.

 

[EricFilmer]

Funny how a God needs people like you guys to think of excuses

You’ve reactivated a thread that is nearly six years old! Moreover, the OP has not posted in CAF since March of 2009, so I doubt if he’s aware of your comment. If you think that this issue of Mithra mythology possibly influencing Christianity has any merit then it would be better for you to start a new thread on the subject. That is, of course, if you are interested in actually debating rather than simply informing people about what amuses you.