Before Mass Silence

[kill051]

I generally move seats if it’s really disturbing, but I have also been training myself to pray and focus on God even in the noisiest settings, so that I can be praying while standing in line at the post office, or with someone’s kid making a racket in the pew behind me at church.
You can get yourself into a state of concentration that you don’t even notice this stuff. It’s a useful skill to have.

I do the same thing, but in my case, my musical training comes in handy. When I worked as a busboy after college, I had so many pieces of music memorized that I could play them to myself in my head while going about my duties. Beethoven’s ninth symphony (sixty-five minutes), Mozart’s opera Cosi fan tutte (three hours), Bach’s six Brandenburg concerti (ninety minutes) and Haydn’s ‘Drum Roll’ symphony (twenty-five minutes) would get me to the end of a six hour shift. That was good practice for silent prayer as I am on the bus or in the grocery store. Sometimes I completely lose myself as I walk about town.

 

[ShastaRose]

Pup, I’m pretty sure there isn’t anything anti-Catholic about Amazing Grace, since we just got through singing it a couple of hours ago as our exit him after Mass.

 

[anon10271182]

Is that a polka? I love polkas! They played one today, for the sung Our Father. Just a tad more uptempo and I might have been tempted to grab the old gal next to me and whirl her around the aisles. Love polkas—oom pa pa oom pa pa!

 

[Seagull]

Last mass - someone on the phone “ no, not much, I’m a church,
waiting for mass, what, yeah yeah, ha ha “ etc

People chatting about 4th of July cookouts - fireworks -
“ I had some watermelon “ - “ oh, I love watermelon after a hotdog “ etc

Even during the rosary - a woman in the front row -
Began speaking with a woman standing before her -
Only 10 feet away from a Mary statue on a pedestal -
about 20 of us reciting it - but watching them chat too near Mary.

 

[Onthisrock84]

http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=371921

Amazing Grace is coming out of the Protestant theological tradition and reflects its emphasis on sola gratia, grace alone. In verse one the text says “Amazing grace! How sweet the sound, That saved a wretch like me!” While this sounds very humble, and by itself appears inoffensive to Catholic ears, in light of the theological tradition it comes from it suggests the complete depravity of man which was at the root of Luther’s theology. Catholic teaching rejects that. Human nature is wounded, but remains capable of natural good acts, that is, acts of natural virtue, both moral and intellectual, as opposed to supernatural virtue (which IS a gift from God).

In keeping with that the Catholic must also reject verse two, which asserts that sanctifying grace is given with belief. “How precious did that grace appear,The hour I first believed.” While a certain natural faith in the credibility of revelation disposes the person to request entrance into Christ’s Church and to desire the “Amazing Grace” of Justification, sanctifying grace (actual justice), the grace of the theological virtues (faith, hope and charity), the supernatural moral virtues (without which a meritorious act, as opposed to an act of the natural man cannot be done) and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit (which perfect man) are communicated at Baptism, NOT “the hour I first believed.” Granted a Catholic could read into that the hour of baptism, when supernatural faith is actually communicated, but that is not the intended meaning of the hymn, which reflects the theology that one must only “believe on the Lord Jesus” and one is granted salvation. Implied in the balance of the verses is the doctrine of Blessed Assurance, that “once saved” one’s salvation is assured - a doctrine at serious odds with Scripture, and therefore Catholic teaching, and contrary to the good of man.

Since there is an obligation to use only doctrinally sound hymns in the Liturgy, Amazing Grace is at best equivocal and at worse seriously contrary to the Catholic theology of grace.

 

[Pup7]

Pup, I’m pretty sure there isn’t anything anti-Catholic about Amazing Grace, since we just got through singing it a couple of hours ago as our exit him after Mass.

I don’t believe there is either, which is why it amazes me anyone would think otherwise.

 

[Pup7]

Sorry, but I don’t buy it.

 

[deMontfort]

Sorry, but I don’t buy it.

Welcome back!

 

[pnewton]

In keeping with that the Catholic must also reject verse two, which asserts that sanctifying grace is given with belief. “How precious did that grace appear,The hour I first believed.”

Nope. Not only will I not reject it. I sing it. I play it. Why? English. I understand grammar and it does not contradict Catholic teaching. In fact, it is in every Catholic hymnal I have seen.

 

[pnewton]

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.

I note especially that part about keeping no account or wrongs is pertinent to this thread, not that anyone is perfect.

 

[Pup7]

Thanks! We finally got a house on base and were moving last week, then this week we have company from out of town. So it’s been busy at the Pupper house.

 

[Onthisrock84]

The new hymnals are not anything to look at as a confidence of whether or not it should be sung in a Catholic Church. I realized this when I actually saw A Mighty Fortress is our God by the chief heretic Martin Luther himself. You realize that song was used as a battle hymn during the 30 Years War when the heretics plunged Catholic villages and celebrated murdering thousands of Catholics? Really and now we sing it? Sorry but that and Amazing Grace and Battle Hymn of the Republic have absolutely no place in any Catholic Church. And many songs by John Wesley are questionable at best. We are losing our tradition and it should frighten people but instead the entire church is celebrating it. Why on earth are songs by Protestants in our hymnals? There’s plenty of traditional Catholic hymns. And by singing it even if it’s just a song and the lyrics may not mean anything to you, it doesn’t mean you are still saying the lyrics and are in turn saying you are indifferent to what the Church teaches which is blasphemy especially right when you are about to receive or just received the Eucharist? No. I will not budge on this. And you that think I’m being rigid should really think about what you are saying.

 

[pnewton]

The new hymnals are not anything to look at as a confidence of whether or not it should be sung in a Catholic Church.

It is more dependable than anonymous posters here. And no, I am not scared. To quote the theme of the papacy of the Great St. John Paul, “Be not afraid.”

 

[Loud-living-dogma]

Onthisrock84:

The new hymnals are not anything to look at as a confidence of whether or not it should be sung in a Catholic Church.

It is more dependable than anonymous posters here. And no, I am not scared. To quote the theme of the papacy of the Great St. John Paul, “Be not afraid.”

Who said anything about being afraid? If someone critiques or disapproves of something, why do you call that “being afraid”? Let’s devise a new term “hymnophobe”. “You’re such a hymnophobe!”

 

[pnewton]

Who said anything about being afraid?

From the post I responded to.

and it should frighten people

But “hymnophobe”? I like that. You (@Loud-living-dogma)have the coined the word of the day!

Did he say that right before he kissed the Qur’an or something?

Any more Saints of God you wish to serve as accuser for?

This is precisely why I do not trust people here talking about heresy, or what is appropriate. Anonymity allows too much leeway for charity to be chunked.

There is one common theme in a few threads today. Who is over the liturgy? While there is a Congregation for the guidance of the liturgy, and to serve as the voice of the Holy Father, canonically, the bishop is the one responsible for the implementation of the liturgy in his diocese. He delegates to the priests to act in accord with the best interest of each individual parish, within any additional guidelines he gives. This included music, this may also include silence. For example, we have been told to leave any hymn after communion to one or two verses, and leave some time for silence, by the bishop. So that is what we do.

There may be places that have a greater need of that which is more traditional than others, some that can benefit from some Latin, as we do, some with less. There are those parishes as well that have a charismatic group of people, and those, like ours, which have a ton of converts.

 

[Onthisrock84]

I am a very devoted Catholic I just do not believe our faith , the one true Church of God, the Bride of Christ, should be watered down to appease other separated groups. It’s something we should embrace about the Orthodox. They stay so true to their traditions and here we are celebrating Protestant hymns and kissing Qurans.

 

[pnewton]

I am a very devoted Catholic I just do not believe our faith , the one true Church of God, the Bride of Christ, should be watered down to appease other separated groups

Nothing discussed here is watery. St. Paul was equally devoted.

To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.

What you call watering down is a tradition of the Church: inculturation. In fact, the Eucharist itself, and the incarnation, where God Himself became emptied of all majesty stands forever of our example of how far we must go for the Gospel.

In any case, such decisions on what are best are decided locally.

 

[Onthisrock84]

I am sorry but I don’t get how any true Catholic can stick up for hymns who have verses that are anti Catholic in theology.

Are you Catholic or not? So tired of this new guitar masses and everything. So Pentecostal it is gross.

 

[pnewton]

I am sorry but I don’t get how any true Catholic can stick up for hymns who have verses that are anti Catholic in theology.

I don’t. This only begs the question. Since I understand English and how grammar works, I know what is and is not anti-Catholic in theology.

I am unfamiliar with any theology of the guitar in Catholic teaching. The argument from theology is not the same as a hymn having a history that is not Catholic, or with just not suitable for your tastes.

 

[Peeps]

I don’t know about anyone else here on CAF, but I personally truly pity those Catholics who cannot find solace in any Mass unless it adheres to their exact preferences.

Often these people will cite Church documents to prove that they have a right to be disturbed and angry.

But then others can cite Church documents to prove why the “disturbance” is not warranted.

Ifeel so sad for these people. It must be miserable to live much of life seeking out and finding fault with priests, architecture, hymns, the sign of peace (taught clearly in the New Testament), the Our Father postures, the vernacular, .the musical instruments, and especially all the people around them and what they are wearing or not wearing, saying or not saying, postures, their singing, etc.

I think this must be one reason (there are many other reasons) why Pope Benedict encouraged the development of the Latin Mass–so that these poor sad people will have a Mass to go to here on this earth.

However, I can’t help but wonder if once these people find a Latin Mass parish, if after a few years, they start finding fault with that Mass and parish…

Is this possibly one reason why Catholics end up in the “Catholic” parishes that are not in communication with Rome?

We used to call this the “church hop” in Protestant churches–people would attend a church for a while and then leave, saying that they “weren’t being fed,” and this would be the pattern of their lives–always searching and never finding the Perfect Church. (For some of these seekers, they end up in the Catholic Church where they finally find what they were searching for!)

I find it very sad that a Catholic can find nothing good about Amazing Grace. Sure, go ahead and frown during the lyric that is confusing to you. But heavens, can’t you enjoy the good parts of the hymn?! Think about a married couple–I’m sure my husband would prefer that I be a lot thinner, but he chooses to see all the good things about me, thank goodness, rather than obsessing with the flaws!