Before the 60's, was anything in the world celebrated perfectly perfect in every way?

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Another thread asked the probing question: “Before the 60’s, was the Tridentine Mass celebrated perfectly perfect in every way?”

Since I believe nothing - before or after the 60s - was “celebrated perfectly perfect in every way” - I thought I’d just ask the question in the title. If nothing was “celebrated perfectly perfect in every way” then there is no need to ask a loaded question about the TLM.

Any thoughts?
 
johnnykins said:
Another thread asked the probing question: “Before the 60’s, was the Tridentine Mass celebrated perfectly perfect in every way?”

Since I believe nothing - before or after the 60s - was “celebrated perfectly perfect in every way” - I thought I’d just ask the question in the title. If nothing was “celebrated perfectly perfect in every way” then there is no need to ask a loaded question about the TLM.

Any thoughts?
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I think there is purpose in the TLM question. It was probably a bit retorical, but, my observation is some people who attend TLM look down upon the NO… People have to trust the Church. I think that we need to learn from the postive and negative things, mistakes, etc, all through life, it helps to us grow.
 
AmyS said:
I think there is purpose in the TLM question. It was probably a bit retorical, but, my observation is some people who attend TLM look down upon the NO… People have to trust the Church. I think that we need to learn from the postive and negative things, mistakes, etc, all through life, it helps to us grow.
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Oh I agree there is a purpose to the question. :rolleyes:
 
johnnykins said:
Oh I agree there is a purpose to the question. :rolleyes:
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Ya know. I’m an NO person but the total distain for the TLM makes me wonder what people are afraid of.

A Universal Indult is not going to take away the NO, so what’s the problem?
 
netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
Ya know. I’m an NO person but the total distain for the TLM makes me wonder what people are afraid of.

A Universal Indult is not going to take away the NO, so what’s the problem?
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I agree. I, too, am an NO fan (yes, when properly conducted), but am just fine with the TLM, too. And I haven’t attended a TLM since the 60s.

If you ask me I truly think the real issue is with the anti-TLM folks, not the TLM folks.
 
johnnykins said:
I agree. I, too, am an NO fan (yes, when properly conducted), but am just fine with the TLM, too. And I haven’t attended a TLM since the 60s.

If you ask me I truly think the real issue is with the anti-TLM folks, not the TLM folks.
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I think it comes from both sides… Personally, I don’t see how anyone could have a problem with the TLM, as long as it is approved by the Vatican and done correclty (that goes for the NO too). I was born in 73, so I can not say what it was like before the 60’s… But, I don’t see a lot of things that it brought as good. I like the NO, because I don’t know any different, and I am very devoute (I pray)… I would love to attend a TLM, actually I should say LOVE… I just want to see the Church weed out the extreamist on both sides. Those people who aren’t so extreame seem to be fine with both TLM and NO.
 
AmyS said:
I think it comes from both sides…
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Yep. And I see defensiveness on both sides.

Any positive or negative comment about either Mass is likely to elicit a conspiracy theory from whoever holds an opposing view. Sometimes this place reminds me of the X-Files forum.:cool:

The Church, like any other institution, is not perfect. Not now. Not in the past. Probably not any time in the near future. But it was, is, and will still be the bride of Christ.
 
SMHW said:
Sometimes this place reminds me of the X-Files forum.:cool:
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I was on the X-Files forums and they never had enough conspiracy to them.
I was an Endshipper, how about you?

The question comes down to, why are people against the TLM? I could understand if a Universal Indult did away with the NO, but it doesn’t.

So why the major distain?
 
johnnykins said:
…Since I believe nothing - before or after the 60s - was “celebrated perfectly perfect in every way” - I thought I’d just ask the question in the title.…Any thoughts?
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I can think of one thing. Don Larsen pitched a perfect game in the 1956 World Series. 😃
 
Well, now you’ve exceeded the scope of my personal experience, as I was only born in 1954. However, I do have a couple of thoughts to contribute (I think).

There was a time when if not literal perfection then excellence according to rubrics was a meaningful concept in Catholic worship. Nowadays, very many, perhaps most, priests at least in the US would consider themselves remiss if they simply did the order of worship as presented in the Sacramentary.

Perhaps the better comparison is not between pre-1960 and post-1960 Catholic worship (as I have posted before, perfection is alarmingly phonetically related to perfunctory), but between Catholics and “high-church” Protestants, who still understand the concept of an order of service as opposed to something you make up as you go along.
 
Just a tid bit, but I spent a few hours on my off day at the seminary reading up on the history of clerical dress (namely the cassock). Anyway, after reading through various journals of liturgy, I noticed an interesting abuse in the “old days” that I wouldn’t have thought of on my own described in this reading material. I guess some parishes were fond of dressing up their altar boys in gaudy outfits with big bows, shoulder capes, fascias, and other garb not approved for altar boys. I also noticed that to wear a simar was reserved to prelates but some priests still wore them, probably out of ignorance.

Not earth shattering revelations, but I found them interesting. Certainly there were abuses back in the day, but the difference between then and now (moreso in the 60’s, 70’s and 80s) was that back then they at least had to openly toe the line and pretend to be orthodox and in recent times that wasn’t always the case.

However, regardless, I’m not opposed to the NO at all. There is nothing necessarily wrong with that order of Mass, but there is a whole lot wrong with various priests, bishops, and laypeople who want “futureMass” for their schizophrenic fantasy “futureChurch”. Also, all the craziness didn’t just all of a sudden come after Vatican II ended. It had been going on for decades before. It wasn’t so blatant, but the waters were being tested. Some was probably done in good faith, some was just done by modernists hell-bent on re-creating the Church in their image.
 
johnnykins said:
He didn’t play for the Red Sox - so there you go. Nothing is perfectly perfect.😛
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But based on World Series appearances and titles, the NY Yankees are much closer to being perfectly perfect than the Red Sox.😃
 
netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
I was on the X-Files forums and they never had enough conspiracy to them.
I was an Endshipper, how about you?
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I suppose that’s kind of what I was. But I leaned slightly more to the no-romance category. I really hated the teasing done by the writers.
netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
The question comes down to, why are people against the TLM? I could understand if a Universal Indult did away with the NO, but it doesn’t.

So why the major distain?
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I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately. Here’s my short answer:

I believe some people did have personal agendas. But I think the majority of them grew up with the Tridentine Mass but then had some kind of emotional experience (maybe like a ‘born again’ experience?) which they’ve connected to the NO, modern music, ‘innovative’ liturgies, etc. They’ve generalized this to ‘old-bad; new-good’ and projected it on to the whole Church.
 
SMHW said:
The Church, like any other institution, is not perfect. Not now. Not in the past. Probably not any time in the near future. But it was, is, and will still be the bride of Christ.
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I would qualify this statement to be that the people in the Church are not perfect and many times are the ones who poorly present the Church to the world.
The Church itself is perfect, it is immaculate. Jesus taught the perfect faith and taught it 100% correctly.
We Catholics just do a poor job of presenting this beautiful faith to the world as we always make it look bad.
If people really knew what the Church was everyone with a good concience would be knocking down the doors trying to be a part of it.

In Christ
Scylla
 
I really think that someone needs to do a poll with these 2 answers.

Please categorize yourself.
  1. I feel that the Novus Ordo must be abolished and the TLM exclusively celebrated.
or
  1. I feel that the TLM should be abolished and the Novus Ordo should be celebrated exclusively.
I think you’d, in reality, get 5 people to vote. I don’t think there’s as much disdain as you’d think on these forums for either Mass although I’d guess one has more disdain than another.😉
 
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