F
fabio_rocha
Guest
God is spirit. The Son of God incarnated, lived among us and is in heaven with his ressurrected and glorified body. Before all of this, was He a spitrit just like God the Father?
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J
Jon_S_1
Guest
Before this he was God the Father. Jesus is a manifestation of God to the world.
G
graceandglory
Guest
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.…
From the beginning of the Gospel of St. John
From the Catechism:
**CHAPTER TWO
I BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY SON OF GOD
The Good News: God has sent his Son**
422 'But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.'1 This is ‘the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God’:'2 God has visited his people. He has fulfilled the promise he made to Abraham and his descendants. He acted far beyond all expectation - he has sent his own ‘beloved Son’.3
423 We believe and confess that Jesus of Nazareth, born a Jew of a daughter of Israel at Bethlehem at the time of King Herod the Great and the emperor Caesar Augustus, a carpenter by trade, who died crucified in Jerusalem under the procurator Pontius Pilate during the reign of the emperor Tiberius, is the eternal Son of God made man. He ‘came from God’,4 ‘descended from heaven’,5 and ‘came in the flesh’.6 For 'the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. . . And from his fullness have we all received, grace upon grace.'7
From the beginning of the Gospel of St. John
From the Catechism:
**CHAPTER TWO
I BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST, THE ONLY SON OF GOD
The Good News: God has sent his Son**
422 'But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.'1 This is ‘the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God’:'2 God has visited his people. He has fulfilled the promise he made to Abraham and his descendants. He acted far beyond all expectation - he has sent his own ‘beloved Son’.3
423 We believe and confess that Jesus of Nazareth, born a Jew of a daughter of Israel at Bethlehem at the time of King Herod the Great and the emperor Caesar Augustus, a carpenter by trade, who died crucified in Jerusalem under the procurator Pontius Pilate during the reign of the emperor Tiberius, is the eternal Son of God made man. He ‘came from God’,4 ‘descended from heaven’,5 and ‘came in the flesh’.6 For 'the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. . . And from his fullness have we all received, grace upon grace.'7
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Jon_S_1
Guest
I agree… But we believe in one God correct? If there is more than one God spirit then there is more than one God. That is a problem.
Jesus is fully God. The word WAS God
meltzerboy
New member
So before the Incarnation of Jesus, the Trinity (three distinct Persons of G-d) did not exist since Jesus was G-d the Father?
C
Contra_Mundum_1
Guest
God has always been the Trinity.
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
That’s hard to answer…I want to say the Trinity has always been, but I need to look into that more.
If love to see others opinions. The issue being that Jesus’ bodily assumption creates an issue of one God with this body also there. That is the Trinity mystery. Did that exist before? Not sure.
Of course we also have to try and remove God from the constrains of time…which if done proper, I believe means The Trinity always was and always will be.
meltzerboy
New member
Then Jesus could NOT have been G-d the Father before the Incarnation, contrary to what Jon states.
E
Eduardo06sp
Guest
Jesus is God. If Jesus had not existed before, doesn’t that mean that He actually does have a beginning? God does not have a beginning nor end, as we know already. He is infinite.
Therefore, how can we logically come to the conclusion that Jesus, being fully God, did not exist before His incarnation?
The following is not the official teaching of the Church, I believe.
I believe that before His birth, Jesus was spirit. Similar to all the saints in heaven that do not possess physical bodies, except God and Mary, I believe that Jesus is spirit and flesh.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Therefore, how can we logically come to the conclusion that Jesus, being fully God, did not exist before His incarnation?
The following is not the official teaching of the Church, I believe.
I believe that before His birth, Jesus was spirit. Similar to all the saints in heaven that do not possess physical bodies, except God and Mary, I believe that Jesus is spirit and flesh.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
J
Jon_S_1
Guest
What I mean by saying Jesus is God the Father is that there are not two God spirits as the OP declared. God is God…Jesus is God. There is one God. How they manifest and relate to time and each other is a mystery of faith.
It’s not proper to say Jesus is the Father since it confuses the Trinity. My bad on that. I should have said Jesus is God.
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Jon_S_1
Guest
This seems to make Jesus less than God…another creature.
God is something entirely different than an angel.
E
Eduardo06sp
Guest
It makes it seem as if that, but it is not what I’m saying.
If you read carefully, I’m saying “just like”, which is different than saying He is the same as the saints in heaven.
D
Dorothy
Guest
The Church has defined that there are three Persons in One God, they are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They have existed together from all eternity.
The Second Person (pure spirit) became Incarnate to save us from our sins. He is Risen and Ascended, and has his glorious body for all eternity.
The reciprocal love of the Father for the Son, and the Son for the Father generates the Holy Spirit.
If anyone can correct or improve on the way I have articulated this, please do so.
J
jmj777
Guest
There are 3 distinct persons in 1 God. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Son of God but is NOT God the Father.
The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. All three make up the Blessed Trinity - Three Persons in One God.
The Father is NOT the Son or the Holy Spirit; the Son is NOT the Father or the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is NOT the Father or the Son.
Jesus, the second person of the Blessed Trinity is NOT the Father. He is the Son of God. Equal to the Father and Holy Spirit, yet a separate person.
This applies before, during and after the Incarnation.
The second Person of the Blessed Trinity became man, Jesus Christ. He is BOTH God and man - the hypostatic union of His Divinity and Humanity. God the Father and God the Holy Spirit never became man.
Peace.
+JMJ+
The Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. All three make up the Blessed Trinity - Three Persons in One God.
The Father is NOT the Son or the Holy Spirit; the Son is NOT the Father or the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is NOT the Father or the Son.
Jesus, the second person of the Blessed Trinity is NOT the Father. He is the Son of God. Equal to the Father and Holy Spirit, yet a separate person.
This applies before, during and after the Incarnation.
The second Person of the Blessed Trinity became man, Jesus Christ. He is BOTH God and man - the hypostatic union of His Divinity and Humanity. God the Father and God the Holy Spirit never became man.
Peace.
+JMJ+
meltzerboy
New member
When you state that the Second Person BECAME Incarnate, does this not suggest a change in G-d, and is that possible since G-d supposedly does not change?
meltzerboy
New member
I thought that Jesus is not a SEPARATE Person from G-d the Father but rather a DISTINCT Person with a different role to play.
J
jmj777
Guest
The Incarnation was part of God’s plan. There is nothing contrary to God in the Incarnation. That was written since the beginning. Not changing, it was part of His plan
Peace.
+JMJ+
J
jmj777
Guest
Jesus is a Distinct, Separate Person in His relations of origin. As per the Catechism, “It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds.”
“The divine persons are relative to one another…” Each Person is “wholly” in each other, but not the same as each other.
Peace.
+JMJ+
meltzerboy
New member
OK, I understand. However, was it then also part of G-d’s plan for Jesus, the second Person, NOT to be Incarnate before the Incarnation on Earth but rather only spirit?
J
jmj777
Guest
As per CC 266 - “Now this is the Catholic Faith: We worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity, without either confusing the persons or dividing the substance; for the person of the Father is one, the Son’s is another, the Holy Spirit’s another; but the Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.”
Peace.
+JMJ+
Peace.
+JMJ+
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