Yes. The Incarnation was to occur when it did. He existed as the Supreme Being as a spirit before the Incarnation. Jesus was incarnated in order to die on the cross to open the gates of Heaven, closed because of the fall of Adam and Eve.OK, I understand. However, was it then also part of G-d’s plan for Jesus, the second Person, NOT to be Incarnate before the Incarnation on Earth but rather only spirit?
The “outside of time” aspect is important for the discussion. But, in human terms, what was Jesus BEFORE the Incarnation: was he still distinct from G-d the Father in His role?Yes. The Incarnation was written to occur when it did. He existed as the Supreme Being as a spirit. He came at the Incarnation to die on the cross in order to open the gates of Heaven, closed because of the fall of Adam and Eve.
Incarnation willed before creation, since God exists outside of time.
Peace.
+JMJ+
Yes, Jesus was distinct from God the Father and God the Son. The Incarnation did not create the distinct Persons. The Blessed Trinity always existed, separate from the Incarnation.The “outside of time” aspect is important for the discussion. But, in human terms, what was Jesus BEFORE the Incarnation: was he still distinct from G-d the Father in His role?
I think you are looking at this too rationally and physically.Yes, Jesus was distinct from God the Father and God the Son. The Incarnation did not create the distinct Persons. The Blessed Trinity always existed, separate from the Incarnation.
Prior to the Incarnation, Jesus was a spirit.
Peace.
+JMJ+
I didn’t mean Jesus to be a “mere spirit” as equal to an angel. I meant it as He is the Supreme Being who is “above all creatures, the self-existing and infinitely perfect Spirit” (Baltimore Catechism).I think you are looking at this too rationally and physically.
The church is clear this is a great mystery of faith and is not answered simply. You are wrong to chock Jesus up to separate spirit before the incarnation. To do so places him lower than God. God is not merely spirit, he is what it means to be…the fabric of which the Universe is suspended, something much greater and grander than a spirit , Jesus is God. He was both the Father and the Son at the same time.
It seems better to show them as 3 distinct persons rather than separate persons.
I agree and I just think it is overly simplified to focus on the separation for they are in fact one. They are the same in nature and essence and mystically distinct by a method and way that we can never understand.I didn’t mean Jesus to be a “mere spirit” as equal to an angel. I meant it as He is the Supreme Being who is “above all creatures, the self-existing and infinitely perfect Spirit” (Baltimore Catechism).
Definition of a spirit - “A spirit is a being that has understanding and free will but no body, and will never die.” (BC)
Jesus is NOT BOTH God the Father and the Son at the same time. That is incorrect and you can find the answer in the Catechism of the Catholic Church 254. “The divine persons are really distinct from one another. God is one but not solitary…They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: ‘It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds.’ The divine Unity is Triune.”
Peace.
+JMJ+
That doesn’t dispute what I wrote or St Patricks analogy. For the divine person has the same source as the leaves of a shamrock extrude from a common stem.CCC 258 - “[E]ach divine person performs the common work according to his unique personal property. Thus the Church confesses…‘one God and Father from whom all things are, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and one Holy Spirit in whom all things are.’”
Peace.
+JMJ+
You are correct in saying they are not separate. My error when thinking and typing too fast. They are 3 distinct persons.I agree and I just think it is overly simplified to focus on the separation for they are in fact one. They are the same in nature and essence and mystically distinct by a method and way that we can never understand.
St Patrick explained it with a Shamrock. I
One Shamrock with three leaves. I think that’s far closer to reality than saying it is three distinct shamrocks with equal size and power tied together.
Yes, I too sparked that confusion by typing without thinking to quickly at the start of the thread. I said Jesus was the Father before which is incorrect.You are correct in saying they are not separate. My error when thinking and typing too fast. They are 3 distinct persons.
Even though this is a mystery beyond all human understanding, we are still called to learn as much as we are capable through the Catechism of the Catholic Church. We must always strive to grow in the teachings of the Church.
The error I was referring to was the idea that Jesus is Both Father and Son which is simply not the case as stated in the CCC.
Peace.
+JMJ+