Beginner question- Greek Orthodoxy

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Well, no…few things are. But it’s certainly the norm that they not receive, is it not? (I’m not EO, but among the EO I know it certainly wouldn’t be appropriate to suggest otherwise, even though they would recognize that there are exceptions.)
 
Well, no…few things are. But it’s certainly the norm that they not receive, is it not? (I’m not EO, but among the EO I know it certainly wouldn’t be appropriate to suggest otherwise, even though they would recognize that there are exceptions.)
Its is the norm,yes. and they would recognize exceptions.
 
Instead of stating my uninformed impression, I will ask, What would change on a practical level if an Orthodox congregation decided to join communion with the Catholic Church?
As far as I can tell, the two things that would have the biggest impact on the practical level pertain to Catholic teaching on 1) divorce 2) contraception. The Orthodox do not prohibit either of these things absolutely; although divorce is strongly discouraged, and I believe that contraception is not regarded as something to be used willy-nilly, but only after prayerful consideration of whether the married couple should be open to more children as part of God’s plan for them.
 
What does that mean, ThatOrthodoxGuy? If they priests will not let them, then they cannot receive… :hmmm:
I think what he meant by “Catholics can receive” is that their own Church does not prohibit them from doing so.
 
As far as I can tell, the two things that would have the biggest impact on the practical level pertain to Catholic teaching on 1) divorce 2) contraception. The Orthodox do not prohibit either of these things absolutely; although divorce is strongly discouraged, and I believe that contraception is not regarded as something to be used willy-nilly, but only after prayerful consideration of whether the married couple should be open to more children as part of God’s plan for them.
I should have specifically liturgically and theologically with respect to what we believe about God.

The Catholic and Orthodox Churches have come up with different ways of handling two problems the faithful face. Obviously I am biased having been raised Catholic, but the Catholic solution is more intellectually and spiritually honest, in my opinion, than an exception-based allowance for something that is discouraged, in both cases.

This is actually very relevant to my personal situation. I am a separated mom of 2. If my situation ends in divorce and the Catholic Church via the Tribunal discerns that my marriage was and is valid, I really don’t know if I could swallow that and face a future as a single parent. I guess I’ll cross that bridge when and if I come to it, you know?
 
I think what he meant by “Catholics can receive” is that their own Church does not prohibit them from doing so.
To put it differently, it is not a sin for a Catholic to receive communion at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, but it would be gravely offensive to the Orthodox for him or her to do so.
 
To put it differently, it is not a sin for a Catholic to receive communion at an Orthodox Divine Liturgy, but it would be gravely offensive to the Orthodox for him or her to do so.
From what I gather, and I do not have personal experience in this, is that there are places where the priest or even the bishop will commune Catholics. It is definitely not the norm. And from what I have read from people sharing experiences online, this seems to happen more often in Europe than in North America. Orthodox tend to be much stricter here in North America where they are the minority.
 
Here is some thought on the reason that may lead to the imbalance of accepting Holy Communion between the Catholics and Orthodox today. This is from a Catholic convert, thus it may be from one side of the story. Perhaps we can have some thought from the Orthodox too, if possible.

One reason for Orthodoxy’s attractiveness back then was simply that, for me, its image remained refreshingly untainted by the emotional anti-Catholic Calvinist prejudices which I had imbibed against “Romanism” during adolescence. Nobody, as far as I knew, was describing Istanbul as “Mystery Babylon.”

I was running up against the rather obvious fact that Orthodoxy is, well, not exactly catholic. It lacks the cultural universality and openness, the capacity to provide a true and welcoming home for all the world’s tribes and nations, that is in fact one of the four marks of the true Church: one, holy, catholic, and apostolic. Every word of the liturgies I attended in Sydney—including the Scripture readings and preaching—was in Greek, of which I understood absolutely nothing. The thesis that Eastern Orthodoxy is the true religion was turning out to bear the practical corollary that, to share fully and fruitfully in the life of the Body of Christ, one would almost have to become a Greek. (Well, O.K., maybe a Russian, a Serb, a Syrian—but in any case the ethnic options would be very limited.)

Does Orthodoxy Make Sense?

In short, Eastern Orthodoxy, as far as I could see at that stage of my journey, had certain strengths over against Catholicism, but also certain weaknesses.

In this case the debate was mainly over the nature of the Petrine primacy,
if God has given the gift of infallibility to his Church, there must be some identifiable authority or agent within her capable of exercising that gift. Now, Catholics believe that the College of Bishops—the successors of the apostles, led by the pope, the successor of St. Peter—constitute that authority.

they (the Orthodox) recognize as ecumenical only the first seven councils: those that took place in the first Christian millennium, before the rupture between East and West. Indeed, even though they claim theirs is the true church, since that medieval split they have never attempted to convoke and celebrate any ecumenical council of their own. For they still recognize as a valid part of ancient tradition the role of the See of Peter as enjoying a certain primacy—at least of honor or precedence—over the other ancient centers of Christianity (Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem, and Alexandria).

Thus, mainstream Orthodox theologians, as I understand them, would say that for a thousand years we have had a situation of interrupted infallibility. The interruption, they would maintain, has been caused above all by the “ambition,” “intransigence” or " hubris" of the bishops of the See of Peter, who are said to have overstepped the due limits of the modest primacy bestowed on them by Jesus. However (it is said), once the Roman pontiffs come to recognize this grave error and renounce their claims to personal infallibility and universal jurisdiction over all Christians, why, then the deplorable schism will at last be healed! The whole Church, with due representation for both East and West, will once again be able to hold infallible ecumenical councils.

After the East-West rupture that hardened as a result of the mutual excommunications of 1054 and the brutal sack of Constantinople by Latin crusaders in 1204, two ecumenical councils were convoked by Rome for the purpose of healing the breach. They were held at Lyons in 1274 and at Florence in 1439, with Eastern Christendom being duly represented at both councils by bishops and theologians sent from Constantinople. And in both cases these representatives ended up fully accepting, on behalf of the Eastern Church, the decrees, promulgated by these councils, that professed the true, divinely ordained jurisdiction of the successors of Peter over the universal Church of Christ—something much more than a mere primacy of honor. And these decrees were of course confirmed by the then-reigning popes.

Why, then, did neither of these two councils effectively put an end to the tragic and long-standing schism? Basically because the Eastern delegations to Lyons and Florence, upon returning to their own constituency, were unable to make the newly decreed union take practical effect. At Constantinople, the nerve-center of the Byzantine Empire, an attitude of deep suspicion and even passionate hostility toward the Latin “enemies” was still strongly ingrained in the hearts and minds of many citizens—great and small alike. The result was that politics and public opinion trumped the conciliar agreements. The Eastern Christians as a whole simply refused to acquiesce in the idea of allowing that man—the widely feared and detested bishop of Rome—to hold any kind of real jurisdiction over their spiritual and ecclesiastical affairs.

catholic.com/magazine/articles/why-i-didn%E2%80%99t-convert-to-eastern-orthodoxy
 
Here is some thought on the reason that may lead to the imbalance of accepting Holy Communion between the Catholics and Orthodox today. This is from a Catholic convert, thus it may be from one side of the story. Perhaps we can have some thought from the Orthodox too, if possible.
Well, to refute some of the claims here:
  1. Many Latin Traditionalists will argue that language is not a barrier to universality. In fact, they would rather have one language that isn’t even commonly spoken today anywhere, to be the standard language of Liturgy. So saying that “I was in Sydney and the Liturgy is in Greek” does not detract from the universality of the faith. The problem here is how the faith got translated into other cultures. The faith must be brought by missionaries, not by immigrants. Orthodoxy in the last 200 years have been brought by immigrants, which is why it retained the culture of the homeland of those people rather than having a faith adapted to the new land. A good and true example will be the mission of Sts. Cyril and Methodius to the Slavs. They were Greeks who learned the language and culture of the Slavs to Christianize them. In fact, they even went to Rome to plead them to stop Latinizing the Slavs. Another good and more recent example is the missionary efforts of the Russians to Alaska.
  2. The nuber of councils. Ecumenical Councils are far reaching, we don’t call an ecumenical council for the sake of calling one. In fact I find that most Roman Catholics don’t even understand how Ecumenical Councils came to become Ecumenical Councils in the First Millennium. Today the Pope calls a council and at the end declares it Ecumenical. That wasn’t true in the First Millennium. Councils were called and only much later it was declared Ecumenical if the teaching of that council becomes accepted by all. This takes years, decades. Often those who disagree with such council would either have left the Church by then (so they don’t count anymore) or have died off. The Second Ecumenical Council for example was attended only by 150 bishops, and the Pope of Rome wasn’t even invited. It wasn’t recognized to be Ecumenical until the council that would become the Fourth Ecumenical Council. Councils happen all the time, but for one to be Ecumenical is something that has to be proven by the test of time. For example, Vatican II is called an Ecumenical Council and yet clearly there are a few bishops who completely reject it. How is that Ecumenical? Vatican I is called Ecumenical, but many Eastern Catholic bishops would say that the interpretation of Pastor Aeternus is far from being settled. How is that Ecumenical? Ecumenical means “the entire world”, which means the council is accepted by all canonical bishops. If there are rejections or even questions, then acceptance is not complete. This is why Florence is not Ecumenical by any stretch.
 
Really, Fr. Brian’s above article is so full of fallacies and propaganda it almost qualifies as satire.
 
The language issue is so overblown and ridiculous. Both churches have traditional liturgical languages, but somehow the one that took much longer to allow native translations (see: Papal suppression of “Wycliffism” which led to things like the condemnation of Jan Hus for, among other things, advocating that the Mass be said in the language of the people rather than Latin) can now use that fact as a cudgel against the Orthodox for being so terribly “ethnic”. They’re right, I suppose, in a way: It is more ‘ethnic’ to have the people celebrate in their own language than to have a unifying language like Latin being used everywhere, but then what do they think that Greek is for the Byzantines? Or Old Church Slavonic for the Slavs? Or Coptic for the Copts? Or Syriac for the Syrians?, etc. These are all very old and venerable languages, and if a Roman Catholic is going to use their existence and use as a point against Orthodoxy, then he must at least also implicate his fellow Catholics in the various Byzantine Catholic Churches, Syriac-using Catholic Churches, and others on the same account.

Realistically, you cannot make such an argument. Latin only exists as a liturgical language for the same exact reason that any of these other languages exist as liturgical languages: It was once the common language of the people in a particular area, but was retained in the Church after it started to be replaced by other languages. So really when I read an RC apologist write such things, I can’t help but think that he either hates the other churches with whom is in communion, or thinks that the narrow set of “ethnic choices” (for lack of a better way to put it) for whom Orthodoxy can seem a natural fit are too alienating, while never once considering that the historical reason why things developed as they did was because the Eastern Churches have always been more open to cultural diversity than the West. That’s why we’ve historically had Syriac, Coptic, Armenian, etc. liturgies. Most started out in Greek (as the Copts did), but some first worshiped in Syriac (as the Armenians did) – all eventually translated their liturgies into the language of the people, generally around the same time that Latin came into wide use in the Western Church (c. 4th century; remember that the Latin Church worshiped in Greek, too, until Pope Victor I near the end of the 2nd century changed the language to Latin because it was the common language of the people – it took a few more centuries for it become normative in Christian worship throughout the Western Roman Empire).

So, yes the Eastern churches are terribly ‘ethnic’. ‘Ethnic’ enough to accept me and my Egyptian, and Syrian, and Mexican, and Guatemalan, and African, and Fijian, etc. friends on equal ground. And this is evidence that the Eastern churches aren’t Catholic? It boggles the mind.
 
So, yes the Eastern churches are terribly ‘ethnic’. ‘Ethnic’ enough to accept me and my Egyptian, and Syrian, and Mexican, and Guatemalan, and African, and Fijian, etc. friends on equal ground. And this is evidence that the Eastern churches aren’t Catholic? It boggles the mind.
Not Roman Catholic, but I read an Anglican on another forum saying he left Orthodoxy for Anglicanism in part because he felt he was excluded because of his ethnicity, and then in another thread about “heritage” on the same forum this same person commented “Wow! It’s crazy how many Anglicans have Celtic ancestry! Cool!”

I have yet to meet a church free from any ethnicity. The definition of “church” defies such a possibility.
 
Exactly. The Church was always “the Church at ____” (some particular place). The Ephesians, the Romans, the Galatians, etc. were all particular congregations of people organized in a particular geographical location. Now, they all might have spoken or at least understood a common language, but that’s no less ‘ethnic’ than the situation in any other place. Over here, the Church speaks Greek, and over here Latin, and over here Syriac, etc. None is more or less ethnic than any other, just because one area might be bigger or smaller than another, hence leading to the (false) impression that the Western church is unified (after all, they’re all speaking or at least understanding one common language across a vast territory), while the Eastern church is fractured and ‘ethnic’, because look at over there where they speak Greek, and over there Slavic languages, and over there some other language, etc.

And besides, the reality of the situation for those in the Eastern or Oriental Churches in the West is something other than how their detractors, who would like to paint them as ethnic ghettos or museums, would have it. While many liturgies do take place in the ancestral or majority language (relative to the actual makeup of the congregation in a given place, not just for fun), to focus on this alone is to ignore the very real progress made in integrating the local Orthodox into the larger surrounding society, including the language of the liturgy and of evangelization. Witness, for instance, HH Pope Shenouda III giving a lecture in English at the Coptic Orthodox Theological Seminary in Los Angeles, in front of a room that by all indications is full of Egyptians.

This is what is proper, of course, but does it ever get noticed by those who are committed to the inappropriate and wrong picture of the Orthodox as hopelessly mired in ethnic divisions?
 
Well, to refute some of the claims here:
  1. Many Latin Traditionalists will argue that language is not a barrier to universality. In fact, they would rather have one language that isn’t even commonly spoken today anywhere, to be the standard language of Liturgy. So saying that “I was in Sydney and the Liturgy is in Greek” does not detract from the universality of the faith. The problem here is how the faith got translated into other cultures. The faith must be brought by missionaries, not by immigrants. Orthodoxy in the last 200 years have been brought by immigrants, which is why it retained the culture of the homeland of those people rather than having a faith adapted to the new land. A good and true example will be the mission of Sts. Cyril and Methodius to the Slavs. They were Greeks who learned the language and culture of the Slavs to Christianize them. In fact, they even went to Rome to plead them to stop Latinizing the Slavs. Another good and more recent example is the missionary efforts of the Russians to Alaska.
Agree completely with you here. Missionaries who are evangelists and witnesses usually bring the faith to other parts of the world of different cultures and belief.

Immigrants just bring their culture along with them. Different people of different culture will not find it easy to assimilate to a culture that’s not theirs and vice versa. Perhaps this is a reason why others would find the particular Orthodox Church rather closed in nature. Thus “to share fully and fruitfully in the life of the Body of Christ, one would almost have to become a Greek,” in a Greek Orthodox Church, for example. That statement is correct in the small context there but of course it does not detract it from being “the universality of the faith”. In that case one just has to find another Orthodox Church that speak his language and perhaps share similar culture.
  1. The nuber of councils. Ecumenical Councils are far reaching, we don’t call an ecumenical council for the sake of calling one. In fact I find that most Roman Catholics don’t even understand how Ecumenical Councils came to become Ecumenical Councils in the First Millennium. Today the Pope calls a council and at the end declares it Ecumenical. That wasn’t true in the First Millennium. Councils were called and only much later it was declared Ecumenical if the teaching of that council becomes accepted by all. This takes years, decades. Often those who disagree with such council would either have left the Church by then (so they don’t count anymore) or have died off. The Second Ecumenical Council for example was attended only by 150 bishops, and the Pope of Rome wasn’t even invited. It wasn’t recognized to be Ecumenical until the council that would become the Fourth Ecumenical Council. Councils happen all the time, but for one to be Ecumenical is something that has to be proven by the test of time. For example, Vatican II is called an Ecumenical Council and yet clearly there are a few bishops who completely reject it. How is that Ecumenical? Vatican I is called Ecumenical, but many Eastern Catholic bishops would say that the interpretation of Pastor Aeternus is far from being settled. How is that Ecumenical? Ecumenical means “the entire world”, which means the council is accepted by all canonical bishops. If there are rejections or even questions, then acceptance is not complete. This is why Florence is not Ecumenical by any stretch.
Not an expert about Ecumenical Council … . From the explanation, I gather that a council is only considered ecumenical when it is accepted unanimously and by consensus by everybody. I can understand then that the seven (were they seven?) ecumenical councils accepted by the Orthodox Church today are unanimously agreed upon. Probably this is the reason why they had never convened any more such council after the schism as without the Latin Church, a consensus would not be achieved.

This is really sad because without such council, the Church is sort of crippled and unable to move on. I think one of the basis for the council is to address heresies as they crop along the course of time. The Church must have a mechanism to protect itself against confusion and influence of the world without and even within. There have to be clear leadership to speak out and protect the faith for the benefit of the faithful.
 
Exactly. The Church was always “the Church at ____” (some particular place). The Ephesians, the Romans, the Galatians, etc. were all particular congregations of people organized in a particular geographical location. Now, they all might have spoken or at least understood a common language, but that’s no less ‘ethnic’ than the situation in any other place. Over here, the Church speaks Greek, and over here Latin, and over here Syriac, etc. None is more or less ethnic than any other, just because one area might be bigger or smaller than another, hence leading to the (false) impression that the Western church is unified (after all, they’re all speaking or at least understanding one common language across a vast territory), while the Eastern church is fractured and ‘ethnic’, because look at over there where they speak Greek, and over there Slavic languages, and over there some other language, etc.
Agreed completely with you there, Dzheremi, though the analogy with the Catholic Church may not be exactly appropriate but I hope I understand what you are trying to say. Even in a Catholic Church, we do have different mass said in different languages to cater for different ethnic groups, like there is Spanish or Chinese mass. In some countries where the population is rather diverse, you practically have mass said in many varieties of languages, yet it is done in the same church (building). Is this what you are trying to say? I hope I get that one right. ;)🙂
And besides, the reality of the situation for those in the Eastern or Oriental Churches in the West is something other than how their detractors, who would like to paint them as ethnic ghettos or museums, would have it. While many liturgies do take place in the ancestral or majority language (relative to the actual makeup of the congregation in a given place, not just for fun), to focus on this alone is to ignore the very real progress made in integrating the local Orthodox into the larger surrounding society, including the language of the liturgy and of evangelization. Witness, for instance, HH Pope Shenouda III giving a lecture in English at the Coptic Orthodox Theological Seminary in Los Angeles, in front of a room that by all indications is full of Egyptians.

This is what is proper, of course, but does it ever get noticed by those who are committed to the inappropriate and wrong picture of the Orthodox as hopelessly mired in ethnic divisions?
I understand that there are always detractors to this type of discussion. I was just about to get into this in trying to know a bit about the Orthodox Church and I have to sieve through the argument and fact. I was just browsing in the other Orthodox thread and you would see three Orthodox posters addressing a post by saying similar lines, ‘you are also guilty of the same phenomenon as us,’ type, instead of giving a proper explanation as a rebuttal. Not very useful to bystanders, I suppose.🤷
 
Not an expert about Ecumenical Council … . From the explanation, I gather that a council is only considered ecumenical when it is accepted unanimously and by consensus by everybody. I can understand then that the seven (were they seven?) ecumenical councils accepted by the Orthodox Church today are unanimously agreed upon. Probably this is the reason why they had never convened any more such council after the schism as without the Latin Church, a consensus would not be achieved.

This is really sad because without such council, the Church is sort of crippled and unable to move on. I think one of the basis for the council is to address heresies as they crop along the course of time. The Church must have a mechanism to protect itself against confusion and influence of the world without and even within. There have to be clear leadership to speak out and protect the faith for the benefit of the faithful.
That is the Orthodox understanding of what makes a council Ecumenical. But also mind you that acceptance is based only on canonical Bishops and orthodox Christians. Meaning heretics and schismatics do not count. For example, Chalcedon wasn’t accepted by many bishop and it created a schism. Once those bishops schismed, they are no longer counted as those who needs to accept as they do not belong to the Church anymore. Rome’s absence isn’t the deterrent to a new Ecumenical Council. The issue is that councils of such magnitude was only assembled by the Emperor because he had temporal authority over all. The Patriarch of Antioch has no authority to summon the Patriarch of Constantinople, and vice versa. So unless there is mutual willingness to meet among all Patriarchs, it is hard to get them all into one room today. Another way to do an Ecumenical Council is for one Patriarchate to hold a council on an issue, and come out with a decision on it. Then try to bring it to other synods and get their agreement on it. This will be a longer and dirtier process, and other synods may even see some of the issues discussed as not important to them. So it may never become ecumenical.

You hear talk today of a Pan-Orthodox Council (which has been hoped for since nobody remembers when). This means that all Orthodox bishops will convene in a council. But it is not Ecumenical until afterwards if there are important decisions made and that everyone accepts those decisions. And even if the Pan-Orthodox Council happens during our lifetime, there is no guarantee that it will be Ecumenical within our lifetime, if it even ever becomes one.
 
So, what else besides the filioque brought about the split?

I’m sure I’ll get different answers from different folks, and that’s OK. At the time of the split, was the filioque in and of itself an issue, or that the pope put it in there without consultation, or a bit of both? Has the filioque grown into more of an issue for some Orthodox theologians just because it was the defining moment in the split?

It seems to me, and I am no theologian, that (pardon the double negative) not misunderstanding the nature of God and the Trinity is far more important than understanding the nature of God and the Trinity. While I personally prefer the Catholic view now that the difference has been explained (not just because I am Catholic), I would quite joyfully leave that part out if it meant being one step closer to unifying Christ’s Church.🤷 I’d like to think our current pope shares my view since he apparently left the phrase out when he recited the creed in Greek.
nah, nah, no really, the pope wasn’t trying to be a do-good-fella when he said the creed in greek without the filioque. Actually to say the creed in greek with the filioque is to speak heresy, i believe he was trying to make sure he was proclaiming a new heresy. The latin word procedit can simply mean “come from” for the so called greek equivalent goes futher and anyone who uses the greek word to refer to Christ with full knowledge of the implication, has challenged the monachy of the father and according to the latin teaching the same can be rightly accused of heresy.
 
I have opened a dialog at a primarily Orthodox forum to get an honest Eastern Orthodox perspective. One member said the following:

Is this historically accurate? To what councils might he be referring so that I may look them up myself.

I already read parts of Vatican I regarding papal primacy and infallibility. I know there are other threads on that so I’m going to go there.

I’m getting way behind in my own threads. Ack! I so don’t have time for this…
i believe the poster presented the orthdox perspective clearly, the latin differ!
The original nicea creed didnt actually contain stuff about the holyspirit and after nicea i believe it was ephesus(not very sure) who put down the canon that says nothing should be added to the nicea creed, but that canon didnt hold because constantinople (council), added “i believe in d holyspirit d lord the giver of…”, a council said not to and another council had the right to say add so and so and the latins believe that the same due process was followed when the council of florence added the “filioque”.
A little history will show that the eastern bishops accepted d council only to go back to the east and “change their mouth”.
So they rejected a council they previously accepted and condemned the addition the agreed to.
 
That is the Orthodox understanding of what makes a council Ecumenical. But also mind you that acceptance is based only on canonical Bishops and orthodox Christians. Meaning heretics and schismatics do not count. For example, Chalcedon wasn’t accepted by many bishop and it created a schism. Once those bishops schismed, they are no longer counted as those who needs to accept as they do not belong to the Church anymore. Rome’s absence isn’t the deterrent to a new Ecumenical Council. The issue is that councils of such magnitude was only assembled by the Emperor because he had temporal authority over all. The Patriarch of Antioch has no authority to summon the Patriarch of Constantinople, and vice versa. So unless there is mutual willingness to meet among all Patriarchs, it is hard to get them all into one room today. Another way to do an Ecumenical Council is for one Patriarchate to hold a council on an issue, and come out with a decision on it. Then try to bring it to other synods and get their agreement on it. This will be a longer and dirtier process, and other synods may even see some of the issues discussed as not important to them. So it may never become ecumenical.

You hear talk today of a Pan-Orthodox Council (which has been hoped for since nobody remembers when). This means that all Orthodox bishops will convene in a council. But it is not Ecumenical until afterwards if there are important decisions made and that everyone accepts those decisions. And even if the Pan-Orthodox Council happens during our lifetime, there is no guarantee that it will be Ecumenical within our lifetime, if it even ever becomes one.
it seems you have rebutted your own arguement, at first you said all bishops must accept the council before it can be considered ecumenical and above you just showed us that the ecumenical councils where not accepted by all in some cases bishops had to be deposed in another case the result was schism.
 
People think that the Russian Church and the state are too close. I dont, they live in harmony.
This has allowed Orthodoxy in Russia to come back to life.
But the state can vacillate from harmonious to acrimonious . . . .history proves this.
 
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