Beginner question (re: beliefs)

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ValerieEM

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Hi everyone,

I have a roadblock with my beliefs, or I think I would have thrown myself completely into the Catholic church already. I enjoy a lot of the things I’m reading, I love the prayers I’m learning, and after attending mass a couple of times, I really enjoy that also.

Problem I have is that I know that I don’t fit one hundred percent into the beliefs of the Church. I won’t get into details because I’m a bit embarrassed. Most of it deals with politics and things of that sort. I get so angry and frustrated about it that I feel farther away from God because my feelings don’t line up with the Church. I understand the reasoning behind the beliefs, but I can’t bring myself to accepting them completely. I know this is a bit vague, but I don’t want to start a debate, because I don’t want anyone here to change how they feel. And I completely respect what people here believe.

This is the one obstacle that is preventing me from just going to church and saying I’m ready, I want to convert.

Has anyone else felt a conflict between what they believe coming into the Church and what the Church teaches? Did you give up what you felt was right?

I’m sure its pretty selfish of me to hang onto things, but I can’t make issues black and white that I see as gray.

Thank you in advance. Love this site! 🙂

Valerie
 
ValerieEM said:
Hi everyone,

I have a roadblock with my beliefs, or I think I would have thrown myself completely into the Catholic church already. I enjoy a lot of the things I’m reading, I love the prayers I’m learning, and after attending mass a couple of times, I really enjoy that also.

Problem I have is that I know that I don’t fit one hundred percent into the beliefs of the Church. I won’t get into details because I’m a bit embarrassed. Most of it deals with politics and things of that sort. I get so angry and frustrated about it that I feel farther away from God because my feelings don’t line up with the Church. I understand the reasoning behind the beliefs, but I can’t bring myself to accepting them completely. I know this is a bit vague, but I don’t want to start a debate, because I don’t want anyone here to change how they feel. And I completely respect what people here believe.

This is the one obstacle that is preventing me from just going to church and saying I’m ready, I want to convert.

Has anyone else felt a conflict between what they believe coming into the Church and what the Church teaches? Did you give up what you felt was right?

I’m sure its pretty selfish of me to hang onto things, but I can’t make issues black and white that I see as gray.

Thank you in advance. Love this site! 🙂

Valerie
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Valerie,
It seems to me that you will have to get specific if you want a reply. Also, ours is a rational religion. Faith and reason go together in our world. Your “feelings” are not relevant when it comes to discussing Truth. When I worked outside the home there were times that I didn’t feel like I should have to go to work. I don’t think that my boss would have considered my feelings. When I worked for myself, I still couldn’t “go with my feelings” or I wouldn’t make any money.

Annie
 
ValerieEM said:
Hi everyone,

I have a roadblock with my beliefs, or I think I would have thrown myself completely into the Catholic church already. I enjoy a lot of the things I’m reading, I love the prayers I’m learning, and after attending mass a couple of times, I really enjoy that also.

Problem I have is that I know that I don’t fit one hundred percent into the beliefs of the Church. I won’t get into details because I’m a bit embarrassed. Most of it deals with politics and things of that sort. I get so angry and frustrated about it that I feel farther away from God because my feelings don’t line up with the Church. I understand the reasoning behind the beliefs, but I can’t bring myself to accepting them completely. I know this is a bit vague, but I don’t want to start a debate, because I don’t want anyone here to change how they feel. And I completely respect what people here believe.

This is the one obstacle that is preventing me from just going to church and saying I’m ready, I want to convert.

Has anyone else felt a conflict between what they believe coming into the Church and what the Church teaches? Did you give up what you felt was right?

I’m sure its pretty selfish of me to hang onto things, but I can’t make issues black and white that I see as gray.

Thank you in advance. Love this site! 🙂

Valerie
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It comes down to accepting that Christ established the Catholic Church on Peter and promised to send the Holy Spirit to protect Her from ever teaching error. If She enjoys such protection and I am in disagreement with Her, then I am not in accord with God.

Once you understand this, you have to accept that you need to reassess your position on something if you are in disagreement.

Whatever the particular issue is for you and since you are not a Catholic, it could very well be that you don’t understand the full teaching or that you have some misconceptions about the actual teaching. There is a lot of misinformation out there about Catholic beliefs that are taught as fact. I know I had a more than a few.

My attitude when I converted was that if I was in disagreement with something the Church taught, I was the one who was mistaken. I do not always understand at first, but I start with the default position of “The Church is right” and try to learn. Some things, when I first converted, were just too hard to understand and I had not yet shed the baggage I had brought from living a secular life. These I put on hold, so to speak, until I could understand.

It wasn’t a matter of giving up what ‘I felt’ was right, but coming to a fuller understanding of what is right under God. And there is the crux of the matter - “I” must submit.

Much of conversion is letting go of sovereignty over ourselves and humbly submitting to God, and to the Church He left to guide us.

Spend some time in Adoration of the Eucharist and ask the Holy Spirit to enlighten you.
 
Without knowing your specific issues, it is hard to comment.

But I will say, Catholicism in the US is often associated with particular political ideas that it is not associated with outside the US.

For example, on CAF, you see a lot of people who are Republicans, who are horrified by socialism and liberals, are pro-death penalty and would rather cut out an eye than have universal health care.

Here in Canada, you would find it quite different - lots of Catholics are liberals or even socialists, find the death penalty horrific, and think universal health care is one of our nations greatest achievements.

This is also the case in many places in Europe and South America.

DSo many things that may seem Catholic politically in the US are actually American cultural values, not necessarily Catholic ones.
 
Like Bluegoat, I think there is a huge difference in how things are viewed politically from nation to nation. I also agree there needs to be more disclosure on what the item is to be helpful. Some issues that many people see as political, could be a problem. The largest one I can think of would be abortion. That, would be a no-no to support in any way shape or means if you want to be catholic. If you want to be one of many numerous other denominations of christian, you have options if that happens to be your roadblock.
 
Bluegoat said:
Without knowing your specific issues, it is hard to comment.

But I will say, Catholicism in the US is often associated with particular political ideas that it is not associated with outside the US.

For example, on CAF, you see a lot of people who are Republicans, who are horrified by socialism and liberals, are pro-death penalty and would rather cut out an eye than have universal health care.
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This statement is ridiculous and very untrue.
Here in Canada, you would find it quite different - lots of Catholics are liberals or even socialists, find the death penalty horrific, and think universal health care is one of our nations greatest achievements.

This is also the case in many places in Europe and South America.

DSo many things that may seem Catholic politically in the US are actually American cultural values, not necessarily Catholic ones.
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Here is the issue…How does a person know what to believe? The Catholic faith teaches the abortion is killing a human being.

Almost every other issue can be debated, but abortion is very clear.

I tend to believe more of what those that are “mostly” against promoting abortion than those that are “mostly” for promoting and paying for it.

With all the confusion and spins, you have to get to the basics and research from there on you own.
 
Thanks for the responses. As for abortion or something like that, I would never. But I don’t see people punishing rapists harshly. If my sister’s life is in danger due to her pregnancy, her life is less valuable? If Jesus performed a miracle to save both, there wouldn’t be an issue, but that’s not a possibility. I do have a close family member who is gay, I’m not and it wouldn’t feel right to me… He’s well aware of what churches teach, but I love him and want him to be happy, and the way things are going (lawmaking, bans etc), he won’t be.

I think the main issue I have with politics is that I keep hearing that God gave humans free will. And when churches (not saying specifically the Catholic Church) get involved in politics to restrict people’s free will, it bothers me. I think that a church can teach and require whatever it wants from its members (obviously there are some people out there who abuse religion, but I’m definitely not saying that the CC is doing this), but I am not a fan of a church getting tangled up in lawmaking…

So you see why I didn’t want to get into specifics. I know the views on abortion and homosexuality in the church. I don’t care to get into debates about it, because I know both sides already and debating here would just frustrate me more than I already am.

I guess I just have a lot more thinking and praying (and studying) to do. If the Catholic Church isn’t the place for me, then I’ll be sad, but I guess I’ll have to move on.

Thank you for your time.
 
Hi Val: I’ll be praying for you; I have family members in your position and I know how hard it is.

I’d just like to make one point and ask you to consider it.

Are you looking for a Church because the Church is true, and speaks truth. . .or are you looking for a Church which 'looks nice"?

There is a huge difference. There are plenty of churches out there (sadly) who portray themselves as being ‘true’ and ‘good’ because they ‘make people feel good’. As if the only sin in the world is being ‘mean’ and making people ‘unhappy’.

And just who is ‘making’ someone unhappy is the other part of the equation.

If my 2-year-old daughter comes into the kitchen, demands a cookie even though dinner is only 20 minutes away, and then cries, screams, and calls me a meanie and says she hates me. . .sure, she is unhappy. Yes, she’s unhappy because she didn’t get what she wanted when she wanted it. . .but did make her unhappy? No, I don’t think so. She chose (as deliberately as a 2 year old can) to make demands which she knew were unacceptable, and for which I had good reason to deny her–and rather than accept the legitimacy of my decision and my authority to make that decision, since I’m a lot older and know that good nutrition is more important than bad, and since she herself cannot make a truly informed decision on her own–well, she defied all the above and proceeded to make herself miserable with crying and ranting and ill-feelings.

Am I sad that she put herself (and the rest of us) through this, unnecessarily? Of course I am. . .but I’m not about to flagellate myself, agree with her, and ply her with endless cookies whenever she wants them lest I be ‘mean mommy’ in her eyes.

Now your family members and friends may be older than 2, and they may think that they know better than the Church, and be acting with ‘good intention’. . .but we all know that no matter how good an intention is, if it is not based on the truth, it means nothing and will lead to no good. To give an example, a person who has the good intention of stopping abortion, but who sincerely believes the best way to do so is to kill the doctors performing them, is wrong, and if he tries to do this, he is a murderer. . .no matter how ‘good’ his intentions, no matter how sincerely he is convinced that he is right. In order to justify himself, he is ignoring the authority of Christ and His church, and going ‘over their head’ and in essence making himself sole pope and sole authority.

So while you may sincerely regret that your friends and family are not ‘happy’, remember that any ‘happiness’ they might because others cooperate and assist them to do evil is not going to be in their best interest. What, as Scripture says, does it profit a person if they gain the whole world but wind up **losing their soul? **

May God, the blessed Mother, and all the saints be with you in your search and bring you safely to heaven at journey’s end.
 
Hello,

I have several thoughts I would like to share with you, Valerie. First of all I would like to say ‘welcome’! And do not be surprised that there are roadblocks; these are very much to be expected. There might be some issues you will wrangle with for some time even.

Have you read the Catechism of the Catholic church? Can you agree or assent and live with these teachings? Assent is the key here. There are mysteries in the faith that are difficult to get a handle on, but we give the assent of our will and trust that we will come to an understanding.

As for politics…that is sticky. It has not worked out very well when church people get overly embroiled in politics such as liberation theology which was about the ‘kingdom of this world’ to the neglect of the care of souls. This is not to say that a Catholic should be quiet in the public arena. No. We have a duty to speak and teach the Truth. We must defend life and marriage, etc.

It never has been totally ‘comfortable’ to be a faithful Roman Catholic. In the early years to be one meant to put your very life on the line and hundreds of thousands have given their lives in witness to the Truth of Jesus Christ as taught to us by the Church He established.

Many people would not rather given assent and there are now tens of thousands of ‘denominations’ where one can be comfortable. There are places where one can persist even in sin and be validated. But if it is the fullness of the Truth and of the faith that is desired, one must put aside the sin and be reconciled to God.

To live a sacramental life is the most awesome thing! Our faith is not only worth living for, it is still worth dying for!

There are sinners in the Church. We are not saints here on earth. Do not be scandalized by individual personages although I know that temptation can be strong.

Don’t be afraid! Our Lord is waiting for you.
Ave Maria!
 
Thank you for the replies. Everyone has given me something to think about. I wouldn’t care so much about the “roadblocks” if I didn’t feel drawn to the Catholic faith. I understand that how I feel and truth may not go together, but I’m being honest (and really, that’s a hard thing to do when I know that it might rub someone the wrong way, and I sincerely don’t mean to do that). I spent this evening reading my Bible and praying a bit, but will do more after my son goes to bed. When he goes to bed I’m dragging out my husband’s parent’s big family Bible with the Catholic stuff in it 🙂

I’ll keep reading through the replies and the rest of the forum.

I appreciate everyone’s time and honesty. And I apologize if I offended anyone with anything I said.

(And many thanks for the welcomes 🙂 I appreciate it)
 
Linda_Marie said:
It comes down to accepting that Christ established the Catholic Church on Peter and promised to send the Holy Spirit to protect Her from ever teaching error. If She enjoys such protection and I am in disagreement with Her, then I am not in accord with God.
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Great post!

A similar thing happened to me when I returned to the Church. Except I remember most the sense of surprise I felt when I realized that I could be the one that was wrong. 😊

But when you think about it there are a couple of things that come to mind:
  1. The techings of today are VERY recent. Many things that our society takes for granted would have seemed incredible less than a century ago. However, God never changes. Either the Christian world was wrong about them for 1900 years, or it’s wrong now. The modern idea that “progress” and “change” are good in themselves, without reference to any specific goal(s), doesn’t really make sense. So the idea that a moral system is superior just because it comes later in history is an assumption without much rational backing. It may be superior or it may not, but it’s not superior simply because its later.
  2. Once I accept the authority of the Church, if I decide my judgements are better than Hers, I am in effect saying that I think my judgement, formed in a single lifetime that has been full of all sorts of sin, is more reliable than the judgements of hundreds of saints, holy men and women, and the Holy Spirit.
One of the interesting things I found in the encyclical Fides et Ratio was the idea that Original Sin (Adam and Eve eating from the tree of good and evil) was a declaration that we (humans) insisted on deciding for ourselves what is good and what is evil, rather than accepting God’s word on the matter. Here is a quote from it:
Fides et Ratio:
…God placed the human being in the Garden of Eden, in the middle of which there stood “the tree of knowledge of good and evil” (Gen 2:17). The symbol is clear: man was in no position to discern and decide for himself what was good and what was evil, but was constrained to appeal to a higher source. The blindness of pride deceived our first parents into thinking themselves sovereign and autonomous, and into thinking that they could ignore the knowledge which comes from God.
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Valerie, I hope that God blesses you in your journey, and that one day, you can say with John Henry Cardinal Newman (another convert) that, “Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt.”

–Jen
“‘Have you no idea of progress, of development?’
‘I have seen them both in an egg… We call it ‘Going Bad’ in Narnia.’”
C.S. Lewis, The Voyage of the Dawn Treader
 
I forget to mention a few items in my first post in this thread.:o

If in fact the issue is say, abortion (since we don’t know if it is or not, only that you wouldn’t do it)

The catholic church won’t change their stand on abortion just because you feel it is problematic to conversion. Even if millions of people stormed the catholic church and demanded it be changed, it won’t do it. Not for millions, not for you.

So, you mentioned homosexuality. Again, the catholic church won’t change it’s position on that, not for millions, and not for you to convert to her.

You have so many other choices (I am not kidding, there are more choices out there in non catholic denominations that will bend on just about anything, especially these 2 things) that you can find a christian denomination out there until you are ready to agree with things that the catholic church will never compromise on.
 
Wow. Okay. Thanks for the responses.

Take care everyone. And thanks again for your time.

Take care,
Valerie
 
ValerieEM said:
Hi everyone,

I have a roadblock with my beliefs, or I think I would have thrown myself completely into the Catholic church already. I enjoy a lot of the things I’m reading, I love the prayers I’m learning, and after attending mass a couple of times, I really enjoy that also.

Problem I have is that I know that I don’t fit one hundred percent into the beliefs of the Church. I won’t get into details because I’m a bit embarrassed. Most of it deals with politics and things of that sort. I get so angry and frustrated about it that I feel farther away from God because my feelings don’t line up with the Church. I understand the reasoning behind the beliefs, but I can’t bring myself to accepting them completely. I know this is a bit vague, but I don’t want to start a debate, because I don’t want anyone here to change how they feel. And I completely respect what people here believe.

This is the one obstacle that is preventing me from just going to church and saying I’m ready, I want to convert.

Has anyone else felt a conflict between what they believe coming into the Church and what the Church teaches? Did you give up what you felt was right?

I’m sure its pretty selfish of me to hang onto things, but I can’t make issues black and white that I see as gray.

Thank you in advance. Love this site! 🙂

Valerie
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1 thing that I haven’t seen anybody mention is that you can start RCIA even though you are not sure whether you are ready to join the church. It is for learning what we believe and why. It is a good place to ask questions. Then, if you are ready when the time comes, you can join. If you are not, then you can decline to join but continue to take classes for as long as you like. There are people that I have met online that took classes for a couple of years before they felt ready and then others who took the classes, but decided not to join. It is up to you.

Personally, I used to be pro-choice, liberal (but pro-death penalty), democrat before becoming Catholic. It was a series of things that converted me. I met a great friend and found out that her child was a product of rape. That kid looked just like it’s mom. (using it here so that I don’t give away the gender.) It was the nicest kid you would ever meet. All I could think about was that I would have been ok with it’s mom killing it before it was born. Then, my dh pointed out how he was adopted. It got me to thinking. (BTW,we are not opposed to saving the life of the mother and in the process the baby doesn’t survive. Just that there are ways to do it without aborting the baby, ie c-section. ) As for the death-penalty, I still struggle with it. I trust the church and do not support it, but it is still an internal struggle.
 
I know this is an old thread, but since its the one that I started with my concerns, I wanted to come back and finish my thoughts.

I went to mass on Christmas Eve. I enjoyed it. I still pray the Rosary, every day. I occasionally watch EWTN. But I’ve decided that I am not Catholic. I want to thank everyone that helped me out. StrawberryJam was shockingly blunt, to me, and really, maybe that’s what I needed.

I can’t say that I’d never get an abortion. If I were raped, I don’t know how I’d feel. So I can’t say “never”, but I will say that I never WANT one. Or if I had a daughter whose life was in danger and it was either abortion or lose both? I just feel there’s far too many gray areas for me. I know everyone here disagrees, and that’s fine. I understand and respect the Catholic stance on the subject.

As for homosexuality, I’m a straight woman, just celebrated my 9th wedding anniversary to an amazing man, who I will be married to for the rest of my life. I love him. I love my family too, including my gay brother. He told me he was gay in September. I love him even though I don’t feel comfortable with homosexuality myself. And I want him to be happy. And, well, if God sends me to hell for loving my family and wanting them to experience the same true, lifelong love that I have with my husband, then so be it.

I never would expect the church to “change” for me. I do wish, that I could have found a point of compromise for myself. I couldn’t, but its better that I realize this now than ten years down the road, and end up feeling angry and resentful. I can just leave in peace and wish everyone health, happiness and the best of luck in the New Year. May God bless you all.

Thank you,
Valerie
 
ValerieEM said:
I went to mass on Christmas Eve. I enjoyed it. I still pray the Rosary, every day. I occasionally watch EWTN. But I’ve decided that I am not Catholic.
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I’m sorry to hear it. Maybe the Lord will bring you to the Church at a later point in your life. In case it helps this happen, I’d like to clear up a couple of misconceptions.
ValerieEM said:
Or if I had a daughter whose life was in danger and it was either abortion or lose both?
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This is a bit iffy. There is no Church law that says that the life of the child is more important than that of the mother. However, the life of the child is as important as that of the mother. And not only is this situation (where the life of the mother would be saved by abortion) very rare, but frequently there are treatments which might result in the death of the child, but which have the primary intent of healing the mother, and which are perfectly allowable. But the Church realizes that a non-human doesn’t magically become human by passing through a birth canal (or being delivered by C-section)–it has been a human all the time.
ValerieEM said:
And, well, if God sends me to hell for loving my family and wanting them to experience the same true, lifelong love that I have with my husband, then so be it.
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I think you probably know that the Chuch in no way requires you to stop loving your brother because he is gay. In fact, you are required to love your brother, because he is also a child of God, as well as being your brother. However, the Church does recognize that a homosexual relationship, however lasting, can never be the same as a heterosexual one. (Even logic says that, as men are different from women, a relationship between men cannot be the same as one between a man and a woman.) It can have similarities, like affection and commitment and self-sacrifice, but as long as your brother is a practicing homosexual, he can’t have the “same” love that you have with your husband. But in any case you wouldn’t be condemned for wishing for his happiness. I hope for it myself–we just have different ideas about what would bring it about. 🙂

God bless you on your journey and may God bless you with peace, joy, truth, and love.

–Jen
 
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