Beginning with luther?

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carlos19 said:
J
There appears to me to be a contradiction in what he wrote in the homily on Romans (especially on faith alone) and what he wrote in other works. There appears to me to be a contradiction in what he wrote in the homily on Romans (especially on faith alone) and what he wrote in other works. Contradictionary only if you hold to traditional protestant beliefs…which I know you do not hold to all of them (faith alone, ie non-sola scriptura, unbelief in christ’s imputed righteousness)
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One can speak of initial justification in one place…and the on going justification in others… 🙂
 
Bookcat some of the posts have gone past you. Chrysostom doesn’t refer to initial justification. He says Abraham was justified by faith alone even though he had works in genesis 15:6, years past his initial justification.
 
true but in his homily on the gospel of Matthew and his homily on the book of acts talk about that once we are brought into the faith we must keep our garment clean, how do you reconcile such contradiction?
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
Bookcat some of the posts have gone past you. Chrysostom doesn’t refer to initial justification. He says Abraham was justified by faith alone even though he had works in genesis 15:6, years past his initial justification.
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Yes being justified faith only --meaning not by works --yes that is initial justification- from grace.

One can speak to that and also say that yes it was not even the works years past his initial justification that brought him into that state…
 
But see what your doing. You are placing the imputation of faith as righteousness in Genesis 15:6 and saying it must be initial because no works contribute. This is manipulation. Chrysostom will not have it.

Yes Carlos, we must remain pure if we are to keep the gift of justification.
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
But see what your doing. You are placing the imputation of faith as righteousness in Genesis 15:6 and saying it must be initial because no works contribute. This is manipulation. Chrysostom will not have it.

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Huh?

I am saying what I said -that is what I am doing – and I* see* that what I am doing -is saying what I said. 😉

Chrysostom is a Catholic…and is a Doctor of the Catholic Church.

I would propose there is both more ground to be covered in coming to an understanding of both Catholic Teaching and Theology as well as of what St. John Chrysostom is saying in various places in the genre of a homily (and what he is not saying).
 
Your not addressingwhat I said. Chrysostom believes Abraham was justified by faith alone wafted his initial justification
 
Pauls Letter to the Ephesians 2:4-10 puts things wonderfully regarding those who are living in Christ.
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
Jesus commanded excommunication after three steps of attempting to bring the person to repentance.

Jesus taught the Christians that it was the responsibility of each Christian to bring discipline upon a brother for any so. He or she may be in. That person if they fail to repent, on 2 times. Jesus said the next step is the church MUST get involved. If the person does not repent, he is cast out. And it is disobedience to these commands among catholic churches is what I believe causes much of the problems in Catholicism.

The only faithful people practicing this that I know are some Presbyterians, baptist anabaptists, Plymouth brethren, and mennonites
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That makes perfect sense. Judge whether someone is repentant based on aspects other than their use of confession and their professed desire to overcome a sin, and then cast them out and bar them from receiving the grace they need to overcome their sin in Confession. Perfect. Sense. :rolleyes:

Despite what you said, you ARE judging someone’s heart. If they seek confession, are they not repentant to some degree? Is confession not where we receive the grace to overcome sin? Why, why, why, why would you EVER cast someone out of the congregation if they sought reconciliation and professed a desire to overcome their sin? That is poisonous to a soul, not helpful. I am struggling with sin right now, and if I were deprived of confession because I went several times for the same thing, I’d likely give up and despair. What kind of logic is that? How is that showing the mercy of Christ?
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
Your not addressingwhat I said. Chrysostom believes Abraham was justified by faith alone wafted his initial justification
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Justification and faith (all by God’s grace) are inseparable. Real faith will be accompanied by works of some kind. Abraham had works: they were works of blind faith. He had faith in God, was opened to His grace, and thus did what God asked of him.

Why are you putting so much effort into a twisting of the definition of justification? Abraham’s justification came through God’s grace, and his faith in God allowed God’s grace to work. It is the same with us. We are all justified in a like manner: by God’s grace alone, and by faith in Him, His grace fills us. Faith means much more than just ‘believing’. Faith means believing by our lives. Abraham was asked by God to take some pretty terrifying and blind leaps of faith. He had faith, and God’s grace guided Him.

I really, truly feel you are looking WAY too far into this. You are simply searching for reasons to object to the Catholic Church, so much so that you are now essentially taking a Church Father out of context and using one example of Abraham, without taking into context the meaning of Abraham’s faith.

I truly hope someone can explain this satisfactorily to you. Or are you simply looking to find problems with Catholic theology?

Does this help at all?:

newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm
 
Did Jesus not say treat him as a heathen and a tax collector? This is total banishment. Jesus was a Jew. Are we going to fight the wisdom of Jesus?

According to Jesus, sin has to be dealt with in order to maintain the purity of the church. If sin is unrepentant the person is then excommunicated.

Are we to fight the wisdom’s of Paul who taught excommunication will destroy the sinners flesh and thus bring them to true repentance? And thus be saved? Paul did not worry about judging such a man. He said he already judged the man and reprimanded Paul for not judging him before. Paul expected the Corinthians to have already put him out.

And for those who would think that this is a unique situation, Paul tells them that they need to judge those inside to put outthe evil from among them.

It is proud to fight the wisdom of God. Evil corrupts what is good. Therefore to keep holiness in the church one must be put out so that they can repent.

And I would expect the Catholic church to follow the wisdom of Jesus and Paul considering they believe in the necessity of works for salvation. The catholic church has no ground for charging protestants with antinominaniam and a mere external label salvation when the protestants are faithfully practicing church discipline
 
Bookcat said:
It is the misunderstanding of the nature of the words of Jesus referred to there that is part of the difficulty here. In a more extreme example …some could say that only those Christian groups who -pick up poisonous snakes - are the ones that are following that verse at the end of the Gospel of Mark about they will handle serpents…(they of course as we would agree are mistaken greatly in their understanding…I pose it as a more extreme example)

The words of Jesus are not meaning that one has to apply the three steps and send all those who commit mortal sin packing… but he is certainly pointing out the importance of fraternal correction

Jesus gave the Church the authority to bind and loose. And in particular Peter.

And the Church can change and apply discipline as is prudently judged from age to age.

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/lent/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20111103_lent-2012_en.html (start reading from the number 1 and onward)
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Bookcat said:
Paul is talking in the first part there about* a very specific case of extreme immorality* (not even seen among the Pagans!).

And we do have excommunications for various very serious offences – such as abortion.

As to seeking to “excommunicate” for serious sin --the Church must judge prudentially what to do in each place and time --for the good. Such would have the opposite effect than what is desired if one would “excommunicate” all who ever commit a mortal sin…
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Note what Jesus spoke about in Matthew (13: 24-30 RSV):

Another parable he put before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field;but while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also.And the servants of the householder came and said to him,

Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then has it weeds? 'He said to them, An enemy has done this.’

The servants said to him, `Then do you want us to go and gather them?

'But he said, `No; lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them.

Let both grow together until the harvest.…’"

(Text from: www.ewtn.com – in the Bible search)
 
Erick_Ybarra said:
Did Jesus not say treat him as a heathen and a tax collector? This is total banishment. Jesus was a Jew. Are we going to fight the wisdom of Jesus?

According to Jesus, sin has to be dealt with in order to maintain the purity of the church. If sin is unrepentant the person is then excommunicated.

Are we to fight the wisdom’s of Paul who taught excommunication will destroy the sinners flesh and thus bring them to true repentance? And thus be saved? Paul did not worry about judging such a man. He said he already judged the man and reprimanded Paul for not judging him before. Paul expected the Corinthians to have already put him out.

And for those who would think that this is a unique situation, Paul tells them that they need to judge those inside to put outthe evil from among them.

It is proud to fight the wisdom of God. Evil corrupts what is good. Therefore to keep holiness in the church one must be put out so that they can repent.

And I would expect the Catholic church to follow the wisdom of Jesus and Paul considering they believe in the necessity of works for salvation. The catholic church has no ground for charging protestants with antinominaniam and a mere external label salvation when the protestants are faithfully practicing church discipline
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I seem to recall Jesus eating with tax collectors and sinners. 😉

But anyway, when has the Catholic Church recently charged Protestants with a mere external label salvation? JonNC posted an interesting link that maybe you should read.
 
Note what Jesus spoke about in Matthew (13: 24-30 RSV):

Another parable he put before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field;but while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also.And the servants of the householder came and said to him,

Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then has it weeds? 'He said to them, An enemy has done this.’

The servants said to him, `Then do you want us to go and gather them?

'But he said, `No; lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them.

Let both grow together until the harvest.…’"

(Text from: www.ewtn.com – in the Bible search)
 
There are cases where excommunication is used and even “automatically” --but a person falling into a mortal sin --while by doing so they have excluded themselves from Holy Communion – and are in need not only of the forgiveness of God in the Sacrament but also reconciliation with the Church there— if one excommunicated them for such in this time and place such would tend to bring the opposite of what is sought by excommunication. Thus the Church must use prudence in applying such according to the various circumstances she finds herself in.
 
Absolutely! Jesus ate with tax collectors and sinners. Jesus loves sinners and wants them to repent, to be healed of their disease of practicing sin.

The church discipline is not to be done on people who do not call themselves Christian. If you read Paul in 1 ccorinthians 5 and Jesus in Matthew 18 this is in the context of people who have already been sinners and they have come into the church with repentance. People who say they have come to christ already and has recievex the forgiveness of sin are to be disciplined if they fall into sin.

Also the setting for the parable of the wheat and tares is the earth or world, not the fellowship of the church. The angels are not to judge the world yetbut wait
 
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