Begotten and Not Made and Mary's Egg

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“Before Abraham was I AM”. This is just one of a few bible verses that my Cradle Catholic boyfriend will quote when he tries to tell me that Jesus Christ (His BODY and Divinity) existed from all eternity and that Our Blessed Lady was just a vessal who did not contribute her egg at the Annunciation.

He is quick to point out that because the Church teaches otherwise, he will OBEY but in his heart does not believe. He also believes that she had other children AFTER the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I have showed him all of the teachings concerning this to no avail. Do I keep trying or just turn it entirely over to our Lady and trust that our Lord will allow her to speak to his heart?
 
John 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we saw his glory, the glory as of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth. To “become flesh” implies that at one point you weren’t flesh. Hence, Jesus was before Abraham, but He wasn’t flesh.

Luke 1:31 is even clearer - Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus.

What else does your boyfriend need on that subject?

As far as Jesus’ brothers and/or sisters… name them.
 
To add to what Notworthy said. I find it interesting that you find passages that speak of Jesus’ brothers and sisters but you never find any passages speaking of Mary’s OTHER children. Also, what would be the point of Jesus handing the care of his mother over to John if Mary had other children? That would be awfully disrespectful to her other children if she did have any. Since Jesus was sinless he would not have been able to do this.
 
Hmm. I wonder what part of “begotten … from Mary” is not clear in the Chalcedonian formula “begotten before the ages from the Father as regards his divinity, and in the last days the same for us and for our salvation from Mary, the virgin God-bearer as regards his humanity.” Or is he saying that there is no humanity in Christ?
 
I used all the usual arguments from scripture to no avail. Its BECAUSE of the word Begotten NOT Made is his reason for not believing that Mary gave Jesus His Human body.

He says he will obey what the Church teaches, but in his heart, he says he cannot believe.

I love our Blessed Mother and when my boyfriend reduces her role in our salvation, it really hurts. I cant help but get defensive, and I know that is not right.
 
I used all the usual arguments from scripture to no avail. Its BECAUSE of the word Begotten NOT Made is his reason for not believing that Mary gave Jesus His Human body.

He says he will obey what the Church teaches, but in his heart, he says he cannot believe.

I love our Blessed Mother and when my boyfriend reduces her role in our salvation, it really hurts. I cant help but get defensive, and I know that is not right.
That’s interesting… He adheres to one part of the Nicene Creed, and then veg’s out when it says, “Conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary”.

Interesting…

It’s almost like saying, “I’ll accept that multiplication table, but I’m not biting on this whole division thing…”
 
The Nicene Creed says Conceived by the Holy Spirit, but he still insists that Mary’s egg was not in the equation due almost entirely to the part that says, “Begotten NOT Made”. He insists that because of this line of the creed, Mary could not have given Jesus an earthly flesh and blood body.

This is very upsetting to me, as is known here from other posting, I am a convert and can still be easily confused on the finer points of our beautiful faith. He is a Catholic School educated Cradle Catholic and I thought that of all people, HE would be smarter then me on the faith.

All I know to do is pray that the Holy Spirit open his heart to the truth of our Blessed Mother Mary.
 
The Nicene Creed says Conceived by the Holy Spirit, but he still insists that Mary’s egg was not in the equation due almost entirely to the part that says, “Begotten NOT Made”. He insists that because of this line of the creed, Mary could not have given Jesus an earthly flesh and blood body.

This is very upsetting to me, as is known here from other posting, I am a convert and can still be easily confused on the finer points of our beautiful faith. He is a Catholic School educated Cradle Catholic and I thought that of all people, HE would be smarter then me on the faith.

All I know to do is pray that the Holy Spirit open his heart to the truth of our Blessed Mother Mary.
Two points:
  1. Not that it will convince him, but ask him where Jesus got his human genes from. He did become flesh, as John tells us in his Gospel.
  2. The average convert that has gone through RCIA (despite the many gripes you’ll see on this forum) know more than 90% of us Cradle Catholics. I only wish that there were a way we could get all Catholics to take RCIA classes every 5 or 10 years.
Good luck!
 
Did you look up the meaning of the word Begotten? Does it not refer to conception?

Galatians 4:4
But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son,** born of a woman**, born under law,

Romans 8:3 (King James Version)
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

1 John 4
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matthew 1:18-25

18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

19Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.

20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

24Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

John 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

“seed” refers to offspring

Genesis 3:15
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Mark 12:22
And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.

Leviticus 12:2
Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.

Leviticus 15:18
The woman also with whom man shall lie with seed of copulation, they shall both bathe themselves in water, and be unclean until the even.

Numbers 5:28
And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.

If Jesus had a body before coming to earth, then why did he not simply show up full grown? Why go through the growth process?
 
hello MKW…

Since you’ve shown him the scripture…and lots of folks have shown you others (that you might have already been aware of) which you could use…

It’s time to break out the big guns. Pray a daily Rosary for him:)
 
“Before Abraham was I AM”. This is just one of a few bible verses that my Cradle Catholic boyfriend will quote when he tries to tell me that Jesus Christ (His BODY and Divinity) existed from all eternity and that Our Blessed Lady was just a vessal who did not contribute her egg at the Annunciation.

He is quick to point out that because the Church teaches otherwise, he will OBEY but in his heart does not believe. He also believes that she had other children AFTER the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I have showed him all of the teachings concerning this to no avail. Do I keep trying or just turn it entirely over to our Lady and trust that our Lord will allow her to speak to his heart?

One can’t have water without hydrogen - which has to bond with oxygen for water to be formed.​

It doesn’t follow that hydrogen can’t exist apart from oxygen, or oxygen without hydrogen. Both can, & both do.

So with the parts -
  • Divine Person
  • flesh
  • blood
  • human nature
  • human soul
  • Divine Will
  • human will
  • (and so forth)
    of the Incarnate Word - the Word did not have to be united to the flesh He took from the BVM in order to exist as the Word: the flesh and the human nature received from Mary were what the Word assumed in order to be truly man like us - the were necessary for the Incarnation of the Word, but not for the existence of the Word. The Incarnation is a state of the Word, not something without which the Word is not the Word.
Jesus Christ was not Jesus Christ “before” the Incarnation, just as He was not a Jew or the Son of Mary “before” it - but the Word was Incarnate as “the man Christ Jesus”. The man called Jesus the Christ began to exist in the Incarnation as a man, only because the Divine Person Who took a human nature in the Incarnation, Who has no beginning, was pleased to take our nature upon Him. The Word has a source - for He proceeds eternally from the Father - but no beginning; for to say that the Person has a beginning, implies that He is a creature. The Person is uncreated - the human nature is created, & has a beginning.

That is why we can’t say “Jesus Christ, as man, created all things”.

And it is the Person Who speaks in John 8.58. The created human nature is nothing without the Uncreated Divine Person - it is not independent of It. ##
 
He says he will obey what the Church teaches, but in his heart, he says he cannot believe.
I have to quibble here, because not believing in his heart is not obedience, because the perpetual virginity of Mary is a teaching that requires both exterior AND interior assent by the faithful.

I will pray for his conversion, and I understand why you arguments are not working. It is matter of the will and not the intellect.
 
It’s time to break out the big guns. Pray a daily Rosary for him

Lillith,best advice and I am “melting” my Rosary praying that our Lady will speak to his heart.

No matter which scripture verse I quote, it makes no difference, and concerning where Jesus got his Flesh and Blood body from?,.he says that it existed from all time and eternity:eek: .
 
It’s time to break out the big guns. Pray a daily Rosary for him

Lillith,best advice and I am “melting” my Rosary praying that our Lady will speak to his heart.

No matter which scripture verse I quote, it makes no difference, and concerning where Jesus got his Flesh and Blood body from?,.he says that it existed from all time and eternity:eek: .
Just a quick question. Does he know how much this upsets you? The reason I ask, some people just like controversy, to push buttons, you know? To be obstinate, stubborn…, just to get attention.😉

I’m not saying this is the case, but it’s possible. Maybe he feeds off the emotions of your reactions to him and your desperation that he see the truth. So maybe you should just drop it. And continue to pray for him without making a big deal about it. You know, let go and let God?😃
 
He is not a “button” pusher, this is an honest belief that he has held since his Catholic School days.😦

And yes, he knows how this upsets me, it was Mary with the Holy Spirit working through her, that brought me home so you better believe that I have a tremendous love for our Lady. We have come to a point where we just Agree to Disagree and let the subject go unspoken.😦 But it still hurts me.
 
Mary is the MOTHER of God–not the surrogate Mother of God!

It wasn’t absolutely necessary for Mary to be sinless for Jesus to be sinless but it is fitting that she be sinless and that’s the way that God chose to do it!
 
Hi Jerry, I wonder if the concern is that Jesus would inherit sin nature from Mary if her egg were used?

But, Romans 8:3 makes it plain that Jesus took on the “likeness of sinful flesh” were likeness is not an exact match. Anotherwards, Jesus took on human flesh without the sin nature or curse to die.
 
He is not a “button” pusher, this is an honest belief that he has held since his Catholic School days.😦

And yes, he knows how this upsets me, it was Mary with the Holy Spirit working through her, that brought me home so you better believe that I have a tremendous love for our Lady. We have come to a point where we just Agree to Disagree and let the subject go unspoken.😦 But it still hurts me.
I understand how hurt you can get when someone disparages your faith or thinks you a fool for believing. I am a new convert to the Church, from the Evangelical community, and I am the only one in all of my family and friends to take this road, as far back as anyone in memory. And I have to hear the endless slander towards the Church, Mary, the Pope, the Eucharist, and it does hurt deeply, because we know the truth and we know how much it must hurt God when He is slandered on account of these things.

And I have found that is doesn’t do much good to try to defend these beliefs in hopes of changing their minds, because they are not looking for what’s true, they want to believe what they believe. It will take a special grace of God to plant a seed of truth in their soul, and the last I heard, He is all about grace!

So, take heart, just keep praying, and try to keep peace in your relationship. Your pain is not unnoticed and will not be for nothing!

God Bless.
 
“Before Abraham was I AM”. This is just one of a few bible verses that my Cradle Catholic boyfriend will quote when he tries to tell me that Jesus Christ (His BODY and Divinity) existed from all eternity and that Our Blessed Lady was just a vessal who did not contribute her egg at the Annunciation.

He is quick to point out that because the Church teaches otherwise, he will OBEY but in his heart does not believe. He also believes that she had other children AFTER the birth of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I have showed him all of the teachings concerning this to no avail. Do I keep trying or just turn it entirely over to our Lady and trust that our Lord will allow her to speak to his heart?
Did His body exist in material form for all eternity? If so, did it shrink back into an embryo, then grow to a fetus to be born of Mary? And what does he think “conceive” means?

As to the brothers and sisters, I just posted on this on another thread. Basically, if Jesus had brothers

(a) He would never have caused His mother the grief and dishonor of sending her out of their homes and into the home of an unrelated man. He would never have forced His mother to live away from her own flesh and blood. To do so would have been a terrible sin. And

(b) Mary’s other sons would never have allowed her to go live with an unrelated male. Imagine even today in the Middle East, a widow attempting to leave the home of her sons to move in with an unrelated man. Would the sons allow that? Then there’s

(c) even Protestants agree that these “brothers” eventually became believers. So the Protestant claim boils down to that Jesus forced His mother to live apart from her other children for the rest of her life, even though they became believing Christians!!! And finally,

(d) even if her other children were not believers, since when is it Christian teaching that a woman should not live with her own children if they are unbelievers? Does any Protestant denomination even teach that? Certainly it is not a part of mainstream Christianity. Why not, if Jesus did it?
 
On the Flesh of Christ (Tertullian)
CHAPTER 19
Christ, as to his divine nature, as the Word of God, became flesh, not by carnal conception, nor by the will of the flesh and of man, but by the will of God. Christ’s divine nature, of its own accord, descended into the Virgin’s womb.
What, then, is the meaning of this passage, “Born’s not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God?”[John 1:13] I shall make more use of this passage after I have confuted those who have tampered with it. They maintain that it was written thus (in the plural)" Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God," as if designating those who were before mentioned as “believing in His name,” in order to point out the existence of that mysterious seed of the elect and spiritual which they appropriate to themselves. But how can this be, when all who believe in the name of the Lord are, by reason of the common principle of the human race, born of blood, and of the will of the flesh, and of man, as indeed is Valentinus himself? The expression is in the singular number, as referring to the Lord, “He was born of God.” And very properly, because Christ is the Word of God, and with the Word the Spirit of God, and by the Spirit the Power of God, and whatsoever else appertains to God. As flesh, however, He is not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of man, because it was by the will of God that the Word was made flesh. To the flesh, indeed, and not to the Word, accrues the denial of the nativity which is natural to us all as men, because it was as flesh that He had thus to be born, and not as the Word. Now, whilst the passage actually denies that He was born of the will of the flesh, how is it that it did not also deny (that He was born) of the substance of the flesh? For it did not disavow the substance of the flesh when it denied His being “born of blood” but only the matter of the seed,’ which, as all know, is the warm blood as convected by ebullition into the coagulum of the woman’s blood. In the cheese, it is from the coagulation that the milky substance acquires that consistency, which is condensed by infusing the rennet. We thus understand that what is denied is the Lord’s birth after sexual intercourse (as is suggested by the phrase, “the will of man and of the flesh”), not His nativity from a woman’s womb. Why, too, is it insisted on with such an accumulation of emphasis that He was not born of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor (of the will) of man, if it were not that His flesh was such that no man could have any doubt on the point of its being born from sexual intercourse? Again, although denying His birth from such cohabitation, the passage did not deny that He was born of real flesh; it rather affirmed this, by the very fact that it did not deny His birth in the flesh in the same way that it denied His birth from sexual intercourse. Pray, tell me, why the Spirit of Gods descended into a woman’s womb at all, if He did not do so for the purpose of partaking of flesh from the womb. For He could have become spiritual flesh without such a process,–much more simply, indeed, without the womb than in it. He had no reason for enclosing Himself within one, if He was to bear forth nothing from it. Not without reason, however, did He descend into a womb. Therefore He received (flesh) therefrom; else, if He received nothing therefrom, His descent into it would have been without a reason, especially if He meant to become flesh of that sort which was not derived from a womb, that is to say, a spiritual one.
newadvent.org/fathers/0315.htm
 
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