Behold Your Mother Dilemma

[Francis]

The Church Father have acknowledged ,Mary as the Mother of God ,The Greek term Theo-tokos means “God-bearer” or Mother of God. It is still the most popular title given to Our Lady in the Eastern Christian Churches. It was affirmed in early Church Councils precisely because it confirmed the Christian claim about who Jesus Christ is and protected the meaning and implications of His Incarnation. The Catechism of the Catholic Church puts it simply," What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ" (CCC#487).

For the attitude of the Churches of Asia Minor and of Lyons we may appeal to the words of St. Irenaeus, a pupil of St. John’s disciple Polycarp (adv. hær., V, 17, P.G. VIII, 1175); he calls Mary our most eminent advocate. St. Ignatius of Antioch, part of whose life reached back into apostolic times, wrote to the Ephesians (c. 18-19) in such a way as to connect the mysteries of Our Lord’s life more closely with those of the Virgin Mary.

For instance, the virginity of Mary, and her childbirth, are enumerated with Christ’s death, as forming three mysteries unknown to the devil. The sub-apostolic author of the Epistle to Diognetus, writing to a pagan inquirer concerning the Christian mysteries, describes Mary as the great antithesis of Eve, and this idea of Our Lady occurs repeatedly in other writers even before the Council of Ephesus. We have repeatedly appealed to the words of St. Justin and Tertullian, both of whom wrote before the end of the second century. As it is admitted that the praises of Mary grow with the growth of the Christian community, we may conclude in brief that the veneration of and devotion to Mary began even in the time of the Apostles.

The oldest hymn to her is contained is called in Latin the " Sub Tuum Praesidium" (Under Thy Protection) and dates to the Third Century. It is also found in Greek and Church Slavonic and begins with these words:“We fly to your patronage, O holy Theotokos; despise not our petition in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers, O ever-glorious and blessed Virgin.”

The Greek term Theo-tokos means “God-bearer” or Mother of God. It is still the most popular title given to Our Lady in the Eastern Christian Churches. It was affirmed in early Church Councils precisely because it confirmed the Christian claim about who Jesus Christ is and protected the meaning and implications of His Incarnation. The Catechism of the Catholic Church puts it simply," What the Catholic faith believes about Mary is based on what it believes about Christ, and what it teaches about Mary illumines in turn its faith in Christ" (CCC#487).

 

[Francis]

@Vico Well said that proves Mother Mary is our Mother too ,when Jesus gave the treasure of all treasure to the Apostle St John In John 19:26-27 as to the Catholic Church.That is our Faith ,that the point what the Early Church Father have thought.

In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:

• orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”;33
• in writing “by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing”.34

 

[Francis]

http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2bvm3.htm

This delay is explained by the fact that the efforts of the Church Fathers and of the early Ecumenical Councils, focused as they were on Christ’s identity, necessarily left other aspects of dogma aside. Only gradually could the revealed truth be unfolded in all its richness. Down the centuries, Mariology would always take its direction from Christology. The divine motherhood of Mary was itself proclaimed at the Council of Ephesus primarily to affirm the oneness of Christ’s person. Similarly, there was a deeper understanding of Mary’s presence in salvation history.

1. At the end of the second century, St Irenaeus, a disciple of Polycarp, already pointed out Mary’s contribution to the work of salvation. He understood the value of Mary’s consent at the time of the Annunciation, recognizing in the Virgin of Nazareth’s obedience to and faith in the angel’s message the perfect antithesis of Eve’s disobedience and disbelief, with a beneficial effect on humanity’s destiny. In fact, just as Eve caused death, so Mary, with her “yes”, became “a cause of salvation” for herself and for all mankind (cf. Adv. Haer., III, 22, 4; SC 211, 441). But this affirmation was not developed in a consistent and systematic way by the other Fathers of the Church.

Mary became spiritual Mother of whole human race

Instead, this doctrine was systematically worked out for the first time at the end of the 10th century in the Life of Mary by a Byzantine monk, John the Geometer. Here Mary is united to Christ in the whole work of Redemption, sharing, according to God’s plan, in the Cross and suffering for our salvation. She remained united to the Son “in every deed, attitude and wish” (cf. Life of Mary, Bol. 196, f. 122 v.). Mary’s association with Jesus’ saving work came about through her Mother’s love, a love inspired by grace, which conferred a higher power on it: love freed of passion proves to be the most compassionate (cf. ibid., Bol. 196, f. 123 v.).

1. In the West St Bernard, who died in 1153, turns to Mary and comments on the presentation of Jesus in the temple: “Offer your Son, sacrosanct Virgin, and present the fruit of your womb to the Lord. For our reconciliation with all, offer the heavenly victim pleasing to God” (Serm. 3 in Purif., 2: PL 183, 370).

A disciple and friend of St Bernard, Arnold of Chartres, shed light particularly on Mary’s offering in the sacrifice of Calvary. He distinguished in the Cross “two altars: one in Mary’s heart, the other in Christ’s body. Christ sacrificed his flesh, Mary her soul”. Mary sacrificed herself spiritually in deep communion with Christ, and implored the world’s salvation: “What the mother asks, the Son approves and the Father grants” (cf. De septem verbis Domini in cruce, 3: PL 189, 1694).

From this age on other authors explain the doctrine of Mary’s special cooperation in the redemptive sacrifice.

 

[Francis]

The Church Father’s has already acknowledged Mary’s role as the Mother of God and as our Mother,what is you point ? and you want to doubt and cause confusion to your self and others we as Catholic believe .

The Gospel was handed on in two waysrally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”;in writing “by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing”.3480 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other.

For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal." Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”. two distinct modes of transmission.“Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.”

“And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching.”

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, “does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence.”

James 1:5 If any of you is lacking in wisdom, ask God, who gives to all generously and ungrudgingly, and it will be given you. 6 But ask in faith, never doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind; 7, 8 for the doubter, being double-minded and unstable in every way, must not expect to receive anything from the Lord.

Down the centuries the Church’s tradition has appreciated ever more profoundly Mary’s very close sharing in her Son’s redemptive mission
At the General Audience of Wednesday, 25 October, the Holy Father returned to his catechesis on the Blessed Virgin Mary and her participation in her Son’s saving work. “Mary is our Mother: this consoling truth, offered to us ever more clearly and profoundly by the love and faith of the Church, has sustained and sustains the spiritual life of us all, and encourages us, even in suffering, to have faith and hope”. Here is a translation of the Pope’s address, which was given in Italian and was the third in the series on the Blessed Virgin.

1. Saying that “the Virgin Mary … is acknowledged and honoured as being truly the Mother of God and of the Redeemer” (Lumen gentium, n. 53), the Council draws attention to the link between Mary’s motherhood and Redemption.

 

[Francis]

@James817 are you denying this ?

@guanophore Has already posted

http://w2.vatican.va/content/john-p.../hf_jp-ii_enc_25031987_redemptoris-mater.html

IOANNES PAULUS PP. II
REDEMPTORIS MATER
On the Blessed Virgin Mary
in the life of the Pilgrim Church

1. If John’s description of the event at Cana presents Mary’s caring motherhood at the beginning of Christ’s messianic activity, another passage from the same Gospel confirms this motherhood in the salvific economy of grace at its crowning moment, namely when Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross, his Paschal Mystery, is accomplished. John’s description is concise: “Standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother: ‘Woman, behold your son!’ Then he said to the disciple, ‘Behold, your mother!’ And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home” (Jn. 19:25-27).

Undoubtedly, we find here an expression of the Son’s particular solicitude for his Mother, whom he is leaving in such great sorrow. And yet the “testament of Christ’s Cross” says more. Jesus highlights a new relationship between Mother and Son, the whole truth and reality of which he solemnly confirms. One can say that if Mary’s motherhood of the human race had already been outlined, now it is clearly stated and established. It emerges from the definitive accomplishment of the Redeemer’s Paschal Mystery. The Mother of Christ, who stands at the very center of this mystery-a mystery which embraces each individual and all humanity-is given as mother to every single individual and all mankind. The man at the foot of the Cross is John, "the disciple whom he loved."47 But it is not he alone. Following tradition, the Council does not hesitate to call Mary “the Mother of Christ and mother of mankind”: since she "belongs to the offspring of Adam she is one with all human beings… Indeed she is ‘clearly the mother of the members of Christ…since she cooperated out of love so that there might be born in the Church the faithful.’"48

And so this “new motherhood of Mary,” generated by faith, is the fruit of the “new” love which came to definitive maturity in her at the foot of the Cross, through her sharing in the redemptive love of her Son.

1. Thus we find ourselves at the very center of the fulfillment of the promise contained in the Proto-gospel: the “seed of the woman…will crush the head of the serpent” (cf. Gen. 3:15). By his redemptive death Jesus Christ conquers the evil of sin and death at its very roots. It is significant that, as he speaks to his mother from the Cross, he calls her “woman” and says to her: “Woman, behold your son!” Moreover, he had addressed her by the same term at Cana too (cf. Jn. 2:4). How can one doubt that especially now, on Golgotha, this expression goes to the very heart of the mystery of Mary, and indicates the unique place which she occupies in the whole economy of salvation? As the Council teaches.

 

[Francis]

@guanophore Well said,the best answer to this post,there is nothing more to say on this, those who doubt and reject it, its’ nothing but heresy!

 

[guanophore]

Is there any historical precedent from early Christianity concerning the interpretation that Jesus is commanding Christians to take Mary as their mother?

I am curious what the “dilemma” is here? You seem to be looking for early church support for Mary as the mother of the Church. Is the “dilemma” that you think this interpretaton of the passage is some sort of later addition to the faith?

 

[De_Maria]

So in the passage about the Crucifixion, we read how Jesus put Mary in John’s care. Is there any historical precedent from early Christianity concerning the interpretation that Jesus is commanding Christians to take Mary as their mother?

Looks like you’ve stumped the forum. Does our guest get a prize for this question?

 

[De_Maria]

Well, Mary as type of the Church and mother of believers seems to be associated, not with that verse alone, but with the simple fact that Mary gave birth to Jesus.

According to this website, the first to draw this conclusion was St. Ambrose of Milan:

St. Ambrose is the first early Church Father to align Mary with the Church; he calls her a type of the Church, he says,

“Well [does the Gospel say]: married but a virgin; because she is the type of the Church, which is also married but remains immaculate. The Virgin [Church] conceived us by the Holy Spirit and, as a virgin, gave birth to us without pain. And perhaps this is why holy Mary, married to one man [Joseph], is made fruitful by another [the Holy Spirit], to show that the individual churches are filled with the Spirit and with grace, even as they are united to the person of a temporal priest.” – Expositio in Lucam

St. Ambrose was born in the 4th century.

 

[James817]

James817:

Is there any historical precedent from early Christianity concerning the interpretation that Jesus is commanding Christians to take Mary as their mother?

I am curious what the “dilemma” is here? You seem to be looking for early church support for Mary as the mother of the Church. Is the “dilemma” that you think this interpretaton of the passage is some sort of later addition to the faith?

Exactly what I’ve been trying to get at this whole time.

 

[dmar198]

Exactly what I’ve been trying to get at this whole time.

I have not yet found a passage in the Church Fathers which interprets John 19:26-27 as support for Mary as Mother of the Church. That doesn’t mean this interpretation does not appear, it just means I haven’t found it yet. And it also doesn’t mean the Church Fathers didn’t know about the doctrine of Mary as Mother of the Church. That doctrine is certainly not a late addition; St. Irenaeus refers to it in 180 A.D., when, speaking of Mary, he says, “that pure womb…regenerates men unto God.” Against Heresies Book 4 Chapter 33.

It is important to point out the limits of the Church Fathers Search Engine, which is what I’ve been using to search for information on this point. Its first limitation is that it only searches the writings of the Church Fathers that can be found on newadvent.org. This resource only contains Some of the writings of the Church Fathers, a relatively small percentage in fact.

A second limitation is that it only knows to look for the terms you put in it. If you put in the terms “behold your mother,” you might think you’ll get every passage in the Church Fathers where that passage is referenced. But you won’t. You only get the Church Fathers who are included on newadvent and you only get the passages that directly quote those words – which therefore excludes passages that only allude to John 19. If you expand your search terms, you get more results, but as your net gets broader you also increase the number of irrelevant passages that you have to sort through to find the relevant ones.

I say that to say this: just because I didn’t find anything after a cursory search through that one resource using a limited search engine doesn’t mean there’s nothing to be found. Research takes time. It doesn’t happen in the blink of an eye.

 

[De_Maria]

guanophore:

James817:

Is there any historical precedent from early Christianity concerning the interpretation that Jesus is commanding Christians to take Mary as their mother?

I am curious what the “dilemma” is here? You seem to be looking for early church support for Mary as the mother of the Church. Is the “dilemma” that you think this interpretaton of the passage is some sort of later addition to the faith?

Exactly what I’ve been trying to get at this whole time.

What is? He asked you a question. But you have turned that around. So, you are insinuating that the interpretation of the passage is a later addition to the faith?

But, if that is true, then you are simply confused. The Catholic Church has never relied upon one passage of Scripture to arrive at Doctrine. The fact is that Doctrine existed before Scripture. Thus, the Scripture is merely the evidence that the Doctrine was already in existence.

Here’s the order of things.

Jesus Christ established a Church.
Jesus Christ Taught the Church.
Jesus Christ commissioned the Church to Teach all that He commanded.

The Church Taught and later wrote down all that Jesus commanded.

As for John 19:26-27 being the source of the Doctrine. That is false. Even without that verse we have ample evidence of the truth of the Doctrine.

First, we have the very fact that Jesus was born of Mary. The Church is the Body of Christ. Ergo, Mary is the Mother of the Church because she is the Mother of Christ.

Second, and these are in no particular order. Rev 12:17 says that Mary is the mother of those who live the Gospel and hold the Commandments of God. In other words, she is the Mother of all believers, thus the Mother of the Church.

Third, Mary is also known as the New Eve. Eve was the original Mother of all the living. The Church is the household of all who have eternal life. Therefore, Mary, the New Eve, is the Mother of all those who have eternal life.

Fourth, Mary is the Mother of Christ and we are Christ’s brothers, therefore, she is also our mother.

So, for you to say that Mary’s title of Mother of the Church hangs on one interpretation of one single verse in Scripture, you’re barking up the wrong tree. You’re looking for sola Scriptura and that tree was long ago found to be dead and fallen of its own weight.

 

[guanophore]

Exactly what I’ve been trying to get at this whole time.

Certainly the Church’s understanding of Mary and her role was clarified along the way. This happened in the process of clarifying the nature of Christ. These kinds of Dogmas don’t get developed until there is rampant heresy. The Trinity is a good example. This term was chosen by the Church in 325 AD. This did not mean the Apostles did not teach Trinity, or that it is not a doctrine of the faith from the beginning.

My question is, why does this create a 'dilemma" for you? Do you also have a dilemma with the NT canon because it was not closed until 382 AD?

So, you are insinuating that the interpretation of the passage is a later addition to the faith?

Yes I think that is what he means.

I am curious how James understands the references in the book of Revelation.

 

[James817]

Is there any historical precedent from early Christianity concerning the interpretation that Jesus is commanding Christians to take Mary as their mother?

This is what I’m saying: “Behold your mother” doesn’t mean, “Have a personal relationship with My mother or be cut off from Me.”

 

[Gorgias]

Is there any historical precedent from early Christianity concerning the interpretation that Jesus is commanding Christians to take Mary as their mother?

I think I would approach it this way:

• Jesus gave his proxy to Peter, and through him, to the leadership of the Church: “whatever you bind/loose on earth, shall be bound/loosed in heaven.” Therefore, the interpretation of the Church, as guarded by the Holy Spirit, does not fail.
• In its councils, the Church does not make up new theology, but rather, expounds on what it already believes. It might make an explicit claim for the first time, but it does not create ‘novel’ doctrine.
• At Ephesus in 431, in response to Nestorius’ problematic account of the divinity and humanity of Jesus, Cyril writes that, due to the hypostatic union, we therefore call Mary “mother of God,” and then calls Nestorius “out of love in Christ [I am] exhorting you as a brother.”
• If, then, Mary is Mother of God Incarnate, and we are Christ’s brothers and sisters, does it not follow that she is our mother, too?
• And, if Jesus upholds what the Church teaches, can we not say that His command (of binding and loosing) is what fulfills this teaching? In other words, it is the command of the Church that is the command of Christ, and therefore, by the Church’s exercise of its authority, we understand this to be Christ’s command to us?

 

[pianistclare]

That is probably quite true, but I’ve never known a priest that did not say she was definitely Our Mother in a homily or a lecture, and then proceeded to talk about the Mary & John scene. It seems to be a pretty iniversal thought.

 

[Peebo]

I think I can see where you are coming from…you are asking from a Protestant perspective of what Protestants perceive as “Mary worship” by Catholics…ie…where in scripture does it specifically reference Mary as “our” Mother…Protestants see Catholics as always praying to Mary to intercede for us where they go directly to Jesus…they see posts on here and elsewhere that talk about Mary as our Mother and how she leads us to Jesus… they see statues of our Blessed Mother…images of Our Lady of Fatima…of Lourdes…of Guadalupe…and elsewhere…of course many Protestants are “Bible alone” Christians…they don’t hold church tradition and scripture as equal as Catholics do…nor do they generally reference the Early Church Fathers…so I’m guessing that…in a nutshell…that is where is it specifically stated in scripture or tradition she is our Mother…and if no one can give an explicit answer then it must be what many Protestants believe…Catholics have invented the whole doctrine of Mary and worship idols…forgive me if I’ve interpreted what you are asking wrongly James817

 

[Spyridon]

St. John Chrysostom, one of the great Eastern Fathers of the Church, writing in the 4th century, says:

"Behold your son . . . behold your mother.

And He, having committed His mother to John, said, Behold your Son. John 19:26 O the honor! With what honor did He honor the disciple! When He Himself was now departing, He committed her to the disciple to take care of. For since it was likely that, being His mother, she would grieve, and require protection, He with reason entrusted her to the beloved. To him He says, Behold your mother. John 19:27 This He said, knitting them together in charity; which the disciple understanding, took her to his own home.

But why made He no mention of any other woman, although another stood there? To teach us to pay more than ordinary respect to our mothers. For as when parents oppose us on spiritual matters, we must not even own them, so when they do not hinder us, we ought to pay them all becoming respect, and to prefer them before others, because they begot us, because they bred us up, because they bare for us ten thousand terrible things. And by these words He silences the shamelessness of Marcion; for if He were not born according to the flesh, nor had a mother, wherefore takes He such forethought for her alone?"

From homily #85 on the Gospel of John:
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240185.htm

Give me a few minutes and I’ll try to find some more.

 

[Spyridon]

Here’s another 4th century Father, one of the four great Western Doctors, Blessed St. Augustine of Hippo:

"But what was this his own, unto which John took the mother of the Lord? For he was not outside the circle of those who said to Him, Lo, we have left all, and followed You. No, but on that same occasion he had also heard the words, Every one that has forsaken these things for my sake, shall receive an hundred times as much in this world. That disciple, therefore, had an hundredfold more than he had cast away, whereunto to receive the mother of Him who had graciously bestowed it all. But it was in that society that the blessed John had received an hundredfold, where no one called anything his own, but they had all things in common; even as it is recorded in the Acts of the Apostles. For the apostles were as if having nothing, and yet possessing all things. 2 Corinthians 6:10 How was it, then, that the disciple and servant received unto his own the mother of his Lord and Master, where no one called anything his own? Or, seeing we read a little further on in the same book, For as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of them, and laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need, Acts 4:32-35 are we not to understand that such distribution was made to this disciple of what was needful, that there was also added to it the portion of the blessed Mary, as if she were his mother; and ought we not the rather so to take the words, From that hour the disciple took her unto his own, that everything necessary for her was entrusted to his care?

He received her, therefore, not unto his own lands, for he had none of his own; but to his own dutiful services, the discharge of which, by a special dispensation, was entrusted to himself."

Tractate 119 http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1701119.htm

After doing some searching around, these quotes from Sts. Augustine and John Chrysostom seem to be the only explicit mentions of these particular verses in the period of the Early Church Fathers.

I found another potential quote from an Orthodox source, but it only spoke of “a certain Father of the Church,” so I didn’t include it.

I could find you tons of quotes and commentary from the 8-9th century and later, but this is about it for ECF on these particular verses.

 

[De_Maria]

James817:

Is there any historical precedent from early Christianity concerning the interpretation that Jesus is commanding Christians to take Mary as their mother?

This is what I’m saying: “Behold your mother” doesn’t mean, “Have a personal relationship with My mother or be cut off from Me.”

But it does say it in Revelations 12:17. Or why do you suppose it says that Mary is the Mother of all those who believe in the Gospel and keep the Commandments?

Let me spell it out for you. If you don’t believe the Gospel, God won’t save you. If you don’t keep the Commandments, God won’t save you. Thus, Mary is the mother of all who are saved.