Being a Christian OR Thinking for Yourself

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Did Jesus tell us how to think or what to think?

A little OT, but it’s impossible for everyone to have an IQ of 160 since the average is 100 by definition. Everyone having an IQ of 160 would make the average 160.
You missed my point and are disputing a claim I never made. I never said anything about possibility or impossibility. If I said “even if we could jump higher than Earth’s atmosphere”, it seems you would retort with “well, that is impossible to do…” But, your point is specious anyway. You do know what the word “average” means, so that’s good.

Go read my post again and make an adequate response.
 
I’m an atheist (former Catholic), so I can only speak for myself. I don’t have an issue with a Catholic following the Pope on matters of theology. What I have a problem with, and I think many others do as well, is when a certain number of Catholics believe in the Pope’s expertise on matters of science, law, economics, politics, sociology, i.e. non-religious matters. That is what is really meant by “not thinking for yourself”. You have essentially let the Pope dictate how you should think. If the Pope disagrees with a war, and you believe the same simply because the Pope has expressed his opinion, you are not thinking for yourself.
I agree, but not many (if there any) Catholics agree “simply because the Pope has” said so. If you disagree, cite some sources. Then, we can discuss this.

In any case, you are an exception when it comes to atheists (and some agnostics) saying we can’t think for ourselves because it is certainly not only referring the Pope. In that, you are above the other atheists in my book.
That said, the original post itself fails to distinguish between different forms of Christianity…
snip because of uselessness
It didn’t fail to mention that because there was no need to mention denominations of Christianity.

The point of the OP (which I apparently didn’t make clear enough) was to ensure the fact that all Christians shouldn’t be put into the can’t-think-for-themselves category based on their beliefs. Unfortunately, I have seen that this is the case throughout article reviews, YouTube comments, book reviews, atheist websites/forums, debates, etc…

And the OP had nothing to do with my opinion of other denominations of Christianity. If it did have to do with Catholicism vs. other denominations, then and only then would there be a need, and as such, I would have failed as you claim.

So, again, there was no failure as there was absolutely no need to distinshuish between any form of Christianity.

And everything else you said had absolutely nothing to do with the OP.
 
ThinkingSapien,

I will get to your post later on. My apologies.
 
One of my former friends is an atheist and I found his arguments in favor of his views to be bullying in nature, dismissive of others of faith, and questioning of others mental acuity when they professed belief in God. I don’t know if all atheists are thus, but know that my friend is and find it frustrating trying to defend my beliefs against such vitriol.

After trying to talk to him for years in a civil manner, I finally had to break off all contact to preserve my sanity. The price of friendship was simply too high. It is so sad.
 
The consensus seems to be that both sides think they are the freethinkers and the other side is a bunch of indoctrinated parrots. I was once talking with a missionary about apologetics. Apologetics needs to be dialogue, not debate. The former is dicussing each other’s views with the hope of understanding each other. The latter is “I’m right, you’re wrong”. When your opponent, Theist or atheist, is making his argument, it is not sinking into your understanding, either 1) because you don’t want to hear it and so you’re shutting it out, or 2) you are preparing a counterargument as he is arguing. Either way, the problem is that you are not getting the jist of your opponent’s point.

And yes, there is also misunderstanding because we seldom want to go directly to the one arguing against our views. I am VERY guilty of this. I’ve never been to Richard Dawkins’ or Christopher Hitchens’ websites. Instead, I look for refutations to them.

Also, both sides paint a caricature of the other. Atheists portray Christians as a bunch of dumb, uneducated hillbillies who don’t believe in science and want to kill anyone who disagrees with them. Christians also tend to paint atheists as a bunch of hedonistic, hateful, anarchist Jacobins who would have their families euthanized if they found them inconvenient. Christians have produced great scientists and scholars, and atheists have done good things and can be great parents and spouses.
 
There is only one thing in the bible that God mentions not to think about and that is lustful thoughts.

Anything else, feel free to ponder.
 
Well, I firstly have to just say, that your understanding of the Catholic faith seems rather lacking. I mean, it seems like you only know the Catholic Church as some kind of a strawman through very very limited portrayals of the Church in pop culture or something. You seem to believe that Catholics really rely on the Pope to do a lot. Well, that’s wrong. Many Catholics don’t follow what the Pope says about things, and they don’t have to.
I’m actually very well-versed in Catholic theology :). I understand the teaching that what the Pope says on matters outside of faith and “morals” (broad term) isn’t ex cathedra. That doesn’t change the fact that there are Catholics out there who allow the Pope to dictate how they should think. Jesus says you will know a tree by its fruit, and when I see a group of people closely follow every pronouncement the Pope makes, what do you expect me to think? A religious institution that encourages free-thought, or a religious institution that encourages blind obedience to the “Vicar of Christ”?

It is no coincidence that there has only ever been one Catholic President in the entire history of the United States of America. And why? Because most voters are worried that if a Catholic were to take office, he would merely follow what the Pope thinks. In effect, the Pope would be the President. It is because of this that Al Smith lost the race despite winning virtually all of the Catholic vote in 1928. It is because of this that John F. Kennedy was pretty much forced to address to the electorate that no one would tell him how to lead: "Whatever issue may come before me as president …] I will make my decision in accordance with these views, in accordance with what my conscience tells me to be the national interest, and without regard to outside religious pressures or dictates. And no power or threat of punishment could cause me to decide otherwise." Therefore, I’m not the only exhibiting these views.
  1. THE denomination of Protestantism? Protestantism is not a single denomination friend. Not even close.
  2. Protestants have always been richer than Catholics. Hence, less literacy in Catholics. Well, you don’t have to be educated to receive salvation. But, whereas Christianity has nothing to do with literacy… atheists are largely elitists. They’ll continue to attack religious people as stupider than they are. But, the fact is, Christianity calls people to be meek, poor in spirit, etc. Many people choose to give things up out of their lives… like spending money on books, etc.
Atheists would again, attack these people as stupid. But, Jesus Christ would judge them as better people who are sanctifying their lives. They will be rewarded for their earthly poverty :angel1:. The earthly wealth of elitists who look down on uneducated people will also receive their rewards…
  1. When I said Protestantism as a denomination, I was emphasizing their similarities. Despite their differences, Protestants also share same views on a number of topics. Perhaps most prominently, and intuitively, is rejection of the Pope’s authority. So depending on the context, you can regard Protestantism as either a “denomination” or “denominations”.
  2. I actually don’t have a problem with people becoming priests, nuns or sisters - if that is what they feel their life is for, and if that is what they really want :). However, I have an issue with what seems to be Catholicism’s “one size fits all” prescription that people should spend their lives being poor. This is in stark contrast to Protestantism’s general message, as Max Weber points out, of working hard and contributing to society. Some historians have gone so far as to suggest that without Protestantism, we wouldn’t have Capitalism as we know it. This is why Max Weber termed it the “Protestant work ethic”. And I would much prefer myself, as I’m sure many others do, to be literate than to spend my life as an unintelligent meek person.
The Pope himself is a pretty successful man (intellectual, author, has a lot of power, lives in a fancy place, diplomatic immunity, kings bow down to him, etc), so I take these recommendations to be “meek in spirit”, “poor”, etc, with a pinch of salt. I believe that these recommendations only exist to keep the poor happy that they will get some kind of “reward” in the “afterlife”. Personally, I live in the here and now, as I’m sure many do.
 
It is no coincidence that there has only ever been one Catholic President in the entire history of the United States of America. And why? Because most voters are worried that if a Catholic were to take office, he would merely follow what the Pope thinks. In effect, the Pope would be the President. It is because of this that Al Smith lost the race despite winning virtually all of the Catholic vote in 1928. It is because of this that John F. Kennedy was pretty much forced to address to the electorate that no one would tell him how to lead: "Whatever issue may come before me as president …] I will make my decision in accordance with these views, in accordance with what my conscience tells me to be the national interest, and without regard to outside religious pressures or dictates. And no power or threat of punishment could cause me to decide otherwise." Therefore, I’m not the only exhibiting these views.
Well, the Catholic vote was obviously a lot smaller during the days that Al Smith ran. And, it should be duly observed that John F. Kennedy was not a good Catholic. In fact, you’d be interested to know that some are now calling George W. Bush the first Catholic President, because many of his aides, speech writers, and policy makers were Catholic. In the same mold that many people considered Bill Clinton to be the first black President, some scholars now say Bush the younger was the first Catholic President.

Furthermore on Catholic politics in the U.S. there are currently 6 Catholic justices on the Supreme Court (though only Roberts, Scalia, and Alito are actually good orthodox Catholics… and possibly Clarence Thomas is as well, but less hailed as such).
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BB2:
  1. When I said Protestantism as a denomination, I was emphasizing their similarities. Despite their differences, Protestants also share same views on a number of topics. Perhaps most prominently, and intuitively, is rejection of the Pope’s authority. So depending on the context, you can regard Protestantism as either a “denomination” or “denominations”.
They have to reject the Pope… they are Protestants… in order to have any authority they must actively protest against the truth of the Catholic Church. That’s why they constantly make bigoted and prejudicial attacks against the Church, it’s the gorilla in the room. Even Martin Luther said “we are greatly indebted to the Catholics for they preserved the Bible for us”.

And yes, you can certainly regard them as a single denomination, or as many… this is beautifully shown with this example:
christianpost.com/news/most-evangelical-leaders-ok-with-birth-control-45493/

On the one hand, there are some 45,000 different churches. On the other hand, they can find common ground in their support for birth control and contraception. When over 90% of the pastors of these 45,000 churches say they support it.
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BB2:
  1. However, I have an issue with what seems to be Catholicism’s “one size fits all” prescription that people should spend their lives being poor. This is in stark contrast to Protestantism’s general message, as Max Weber points out, of working hard and contributing to society. Some historians have gone so far as to suggest that without Protestantism, we wouldn’t have Capitalism as we know it. This is why Max Weber termed it the “Protestant work ethic”. And I would much prefer myself, as I’m sure many others do, to be literate than to spend my life as an unintelligent meek person.
    The Pope himself is a pretty successful man (intellectual, author, has a lot of power, lives in a fancy place, diplomatic immunity, kings bow down to him, etc), so I take these recommendations to be “meek in spirit”, “poor”, etc, with a pinch of salt. I believe that these recommendations only exist to keep the poor happy that they will get some kind of “reward” in the “afterlife”. Personally, I live in the here and now, as I’m sure many do.
Well, what’s counter cultural about becoming rich and educated? It necessarily goes against the fundamental teachings of the most famous sermon in Christian history… the sermon on the mount.

Catholic economic teaching does not favour capitalism, it favours Distributism. Which is half way in between socialism and capitalism. Here’s a diagram showing that Catholic economic teaching is moral, whereas both socialism and capitalism… which you and Protestants seem to praise are both actually immoral.



You and many can live in the here and now, but when the Day of Judgement comes… just as my priest said last Sunday, “I the rich, powerful, and famous are not in a state of grace when they die, then their entire lives have been lived in vain.”

So, you can appeal to human nature for lust, power, greed, envy, jealousy, etc. Because what else other than evil fuels capitalism and competition? It all comes back to selfishness, which Jesus Christ condemns.

And I’ll make that point utterly clear now: the Catholic Church is not against Capitalism, Jesus Christ is against Capitalism.

Jesus Christ is the cause of every position of His Holy Church and His Vicar on Earth. I’m not going to lose focus of that. People can make an enemy of the Pope or the Catholic Church, but if they do so, they make themselves to be nothing less than an enemy of Jesus Christ.

So, really… enough about the Pope and the Catholic Church. Any disagreement you have with them stems from a disagreement you have with Jesus Christ.
 
Max Weber’s theory that capitalism originated under the impulse of the Protestant work ethic (a combination of sanctified diligence and Puritan thrift) became conventional wisdom after he expounded it back in 1906. Yet a decade after the publication of Weber’s book economic historian Henri Pirenne produced documentation showing that “all of the essential features of capitalism – individual enterprise, advances in credit, commercial profits, speculation, etc. – are to be found from the twelfth century on, in the city republics of Italy – Venice, Genoa, or Florence" (cited by Rodney Stark, The Victory of Reason, xii). Italian city-states in the 13th and 14th centuries created the greatest economic empire the world had ever known. They perfected trade, banking, and to a considerable degree, manufacturing, in networks ranging as far as England, southern Russia, the Sahara Desert, India, and China. Celebrated French historian Fernand Braudel later complained that, “All historians have opposed [Weber’s] tenuous theory, although they have not managed to be rid of it once and for all. Yet it is clearly false. The northern countries took over the place that earlier had so long and brilliantly been occupied by the old capitalist centers of the Mediterranean. They invented nothing, either in technology or business management” (Afterthoughts on Material Civilization and Capitalism, John Hopkins University Press, 1979). Even the ascendancy of the Hanseatic cities of northern Germany and the Baltic predated the emergence of Protestantism. And after the Protestant Reformation, according to historian H. M. Robertson, the Jesuits played a major role in the development of capitalism by promoting enterprise, freedom of speculation, and the expansion of trade. “It would not be difficult,” he wrote, “to claim that the religion that favored the spirit of capitalism was Jesuitry, not Calvinism.”
Certainly, writes Oreste Bazzichi in his book The Roots of Capitalism: The Middle Ages and Economics (2009), “the Protestant ethic was, perhaps, a driving force of capitalism in the countries most influenced by the Reformation, but it had nothing to do with its origins.” This is because, if for no other reason, both the Reformation period and the modern age, in terms of business practices and economic theory, benefited from and continue to benefit from a number of innovations that can be traced back to the last four centuries of the Middle Ages: “from the rent contract to the letter of exchange; from the bank check to the bill of exchange and the promissory note; from the principal forms and techniques of credit to banking activity itself.”
Ettore Gotti Tedeschi claims that Protestantism was responsible, if anything, for the later defects of capitalism: profiteering, determinism, laissez-faire, the law of the strongest. In England, where the modern industrial revolution arrived together with its exploitations, the Catholic Church had disappeared. And this, says Tedeschi, explains why the Catholic world became increasingly diffident and hostile toward the free market economy. Rodney Stark sees things differently. He argues that the despotic tendency of rulers, more than the Catholic-Protestant divide, prevented capitalism from establishing itself in Spain and France, and eventually stymied it in northern Italy as well, while a more liberal state like England supplied conditions for its flourishing.
 
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