Being a manly monk

[LatinByzCath]

In conclusion to this story…

I got an email from the prior of the monastery. He doesn’t think I have a vocation because of my “nature and temperament”.

I love my faith, but honestly, never anywhere but the Catholic Church have I experienced such a reliance on traditional gender roles and the marginalization of people who didn’t fall into the “manly man” or “womanly woman” boxes.

Truly, there is room for everyone at Christ’s table. Whatever I do with my life, I want to help show people that anyone can amend their lives to follow Christ and serve the Church.

It’s hypocrisy when we tell homosexual men and women to repent, that God loves them and that the Church has their arms open, but then when a man who some might call “effeminate” tries to enter religious life, he’s rejected because of who he is.

Our Mother Church is accepting of all of God’s people. Our flock needs to be the same way.

In some odd way I feel like this makes my vocation to whatever God wants of me even stronger.

 

[LatinByzCath]

So, I’ve made an observation. I think that experiences like mine are why people leave the Church. They may project one silly person’s opinion onto the entire Catholic Church, and assume that the Church willingly marginalizes those who don’t “fit in”.

 

[Nihilist]

A couple of points to bear in mind.

Being ‘manly’ and ‘a man’s man’ is often a guise of being homosexual.

A lot of football things- sharing showers, shoulder pads, physical contact, etc. - let’s face it- it’s got a lot of homosexual overtones. Same with ‘men only’ things- hardware shops, Freemasons, etc.

Also, if you feel some same sex attraction, there is no need to tell people, with reference to vocational discernment. You only need to tell if you are going to (or have) acted upon it- even that, you need to have discretion. Only tell what is relevant to your following a vocation, in the present and the future. For a monastic vocation, the less you say, the less you disclose, the better. It will be taken as a sign of maturity.

Just be yourself. If you want to join a community, just apply to join, and see how it goes…

 

[OraLabora]

I hope that you will be able to set your desire to join this order aside for a little and look into others.

If it’s a monastic community under the Rule of Saint Benedict, he needs to look at other monasteries, not other orders, if he feels a calling to monastic life and a poor fit with the monastery currently under consideration.

Benedictine monastic communities (and I include Cistercians of both observances here), are very independent and not highly centralized. Therefore the fit must always be with the individual community, not the order as a whole.

It’s the same with oblates; I can be a good fit with one community, but a poor fit with another, yet both are still nominally “Benedictine”.

In some ways I can understand where the vocations director is coming from. He wants men who are not hiding from their sexuality, but rather there to seek God. His manner may have been somewhat ham-fisted-not every vocations director is an expert on human sexuality-but his concern genuine given the scandals that have plagued the Church. This would be particularly important if this community has extensive external apostolate work such as running a school or college.

 

[LatinByzCath]

If it’s a monastic community under the Rule of Saint Benedict, he needs to look at other monasteries, not other orders, if he feels a calling to monastic life and a poor fit with the monastery currently under consideration.

Benedictine monastic communities (and I include Cistercians of both observances here), are very independent and not highly centralized. Therefore the fit must always be with the individual community, not the order as a whole.

It’s the same with oblates; I can be a good fit with one community, but a poor fit with another, yet both are still nominally “Benedictine”.

In some ways I can understand where the vocations director is coming from. He wants men who are not hiding from their sexuality, but rather there to seek God. His manner may have been somewhat ham-fisted-not every vocations director is an expert on human sexuality-but his concern genuine given the scandals that have plagued the Church. This would be particularly important if this community has extensive external apostolate work such as running a school or college.

The monastery I was considering before was not Benedictine, however I found a Benedictine monastery much closer to me, and after speaking to the vocations director, I feel much better.

I’m not completely sure I understand what you mean. I am not hiding from my sexuality - that’s my point. Though I’m not being “loud and proud” about it, I accept my same sex attraction as my cross. I’ve known men who go into monasticism and the priesthood who pretend to be heterosexual, and end up leaving or being dismissed because they couldn’t take the pressure of keeping up appearances. There seems to be this “Don’t ask, don’t tell” policy with homosexuality, and I really don’t like it at all.

I definitely am not a good fit for the community, though. I’ve met a few people online over the last week who have discerned with that community, and apparently there are a lot of men with masculinity issues and repressed homosexual tension. No, thank you. I subscribe to the traditional sexual ethic of the Church, but I refuse to hate myself because of a sinful predisposition, or pretend it doesn’t exist.

I totally understand the monk’s concerns here. Coming from the Eastern Church, this wasn’t nearly as big of a deal. This monastery is cloistered and doesn’t have any apostolates that involve contact with those outside the community, so my conclusion is that he’s probably just uncomfortable with men who are open about their same sex attraction (even mildly so.) He seemed to be of the generation where such things were seen as very bad in a person, so I understand his reaction.

All in all, I’m happy to have been steered away, because I’ve found a community that is much better. My vocations director in the Benedictine monastery has really helped me see my rejection in a better way, and has affirmed by desire to discern my vocation.

EDIT: I don’t mean to seem that prideful. I’m not above admitting that, same sex attracted or not, I’m probably just not a good fit for that community for many reasons, and I trust God to guide me and the vocations directors I speak to.

 

[OraLabora]

I’m not completely sure I understand what you mean. I am not hiding from my sexuality - that’s my point.

I didn’t say you were. My point was that the vocations director probably wanted to ensure that you weren’t, but he chose a rather inelegant way of doing so.

What I said really doesn’t only apply to sexuality. Many try to enter a monastery to hide from all manner of personal issues, or for reasons not connected with the community’s spirituality. That’s not the point of a vocation. The vocation director’s job is to assess the candidate and ensure that the motivations for entering are not to hide from worldly issues, but rather to separate from the world to better seek God.

I’ll give you another concrete example: the abbey I’m associated with is fairly traditional, liturgically. Even though it uses post-Vatican II liturgy, it uses Gregorian chant with all the liturgical trappings (incense, bells, etc.). I spoke to one young man who was refused by the vocations director. He was honest enough to tell me why; he really wanted to be in that monastery because he was a traditionalist and it was the most traditional place in my part of the country.

But that’s the wrong reason to enter a Benedictine monastery. The real reason is to seek God while living under the Rule of Saint Benedict according to Benedictine spirituality. The liturgy is secondary. I’ve attended radically different liturgies in several Benedictine monasteries around the world. The common thread wasn’t the liturgy, but rather Benedictine spirituality. It was very easy to discern in spite of the different liturgies (I’ve attended monastic liturgies in monasteries using Latin, French, English, and Catalan).

If I came across as questioning your motives, I apologize. The vocations director though, has the duty to question the motives of all candidates.

 

[LatinByzCath]

I didn’t say you were. My point was that the vocations director probably wanted to ensure that you weren’t, but he chose a rather inelegant way of doing so.

What I said really doesn’t only apply to sexuality. Many try to enter a monastery to hide from all manner of personal issues, or for reasons not connected with the community’s spirituality. That’s not the point of a vocation. The vocation director’s job is to assess the candidate and ensure that the motivations for entering are not to hide from worldly issues, but rather to separate from the world to better seek God.

I’ll give you another concrete example: the abbey I’m associated with is fairly traditional, liturgically. Even though it uses post-Vatican II liturgy, it uses Gregorian chant with all the liturgical trappings (incense, bells, etc.). I spoke to one young man who was refused by the vocations director. He was honest enough to tell me why; he really wanted to be in that monastery because he was a traditionalist and it was the most traditional place in my part of the country.

But that’s the wrong reason to enter a Benedictine monastery. The real reason is to seek God while living under the Rule of Saint Benedict according to Benedictine spirituality. The liturgy is secondary. I’ve attended radically different liturgies in several Benedictine monasteries around the world. The common thread wasn’t the liturgy, but rather Benedictine spirituality. It was very easy to discern in spite of the different liturgies (I’ve attended monastic liturgies in monasteries using Latin, French, English, and Catalan).

If I came across as questioning your motives, I apologize. The vocations director though, has the duty to question the motives of all candidates.

Sorry, I misunderstood!

 

[Blind_Didymus]

Peace mate,
Sadly a lot of people still don’t realise that lust is a sin regardless of the object of temptation. (Indeed, I can’t see how one can read the book of Tobit and come to any conclusion other than that it is a sin for a man to lust after his own wife.) This being the case, it shouldn’t matter what the object of a person’s inclination might be if he resists it and stays away from sin anyway.
Next, defining what is “manly” is very vague and a cultural issue. In parts of South America, knitting is a very manly hobby. Many manly Pacific Islanders wear what is essentially a dress or skirt. Historically, many monks have been writers of very little physical strength. Then there is the whole issue that some men are truly gentle men, which certain folk (usually those less secure about their masculinity) see as a threat to their manly identity, when it’s not.
In short brother, please don’t worry about what other people think. Be secure in who God made you while resisting the temptations of the devil (as you have so done) and eventually the strength of these things will fade with time anyway, as your spirit grows stronger.
Remember me please too in your prayers.

 

[Starrsmother]

Very well stated Blind Didymus. Manly is what it is–basically accepting your own God-given sexuality and talents and making the most of them you can. I have been married almost 46 years (to the same man). In all those years, I can count the meals I have cooked on one hand. My husband cooks daily and has pretty much since day 1. Why? Because he comes from a restaurant family and is about 20 times better at cooking than I. My grown kids’ spouses still get a chuckle when our kids call home for a recipe–and want to talk to their Dad. I, on the other hand, love making stained glass so I can use many tools ( including a soldering iron) as well as any man. God gave us all talents–and most of them He did not make sex explicit.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

I feel a strong vocation to monasticism, and I have found a monastery that is on the point of accepting my application, and is enthusiastic about my entering. I’ve had to put it off until next summer to do one more year of school (to please my mother, a prerequisite for entry )

I was on the phone today with one of my superiors. He had a few questions to ask me last minute. One of them was about my same sex attraction.

Context: I’m attracted to the same sex, and not to the opposite sex. I’ve never been sexually active, gone on a date, or even kissed anyone. I’ve always wanted to be a monk, and always been attracted to celibacy. My SSA is really not an issue at all.

Then, I was terrified on the phone. My superior asked me if I was manly. This is a very sensitive and insecure thing for me to talk about with anyone.

I confided in him that I was attracted to the same sex, and that it was just my sinful predisposition, which I’ve chosen not to indulge. He twisted my words into saying that same sex attraction was some confusion from my past, and that if I wasn’t discerning monasticism I’d have no problem marrying a woman and having a family.

Yeah, right.

I want to be honest with him, but I don’t know how I’m supposed to when he seems to uncomfortable with the idea of a person with same sex attraction being celibate and accepting that they’ll never change. As it’s really not that big of a deal, especially since I am celibate, I don’t care too much. I could be heterosexual for all anyone knows, because I don’t express my sexuality.

But then we got to manliness. Father said that he needed manly men in the monastery, and that he valued manliness and didn’t like effeminate men.

Obviously, I’ll need to be strong and not averse to hard work. Check. But manly? I don’t understand why that’s such a big deal.

He asked me if I was manly. I didn’t know how to respond. I guess I’m manly.

Are they going to accept or reject me based on my manliness? How I walk and talk, what movies I like, and things like that?

I want to join this community so bad, and give my life to Christ. Now, I’m afraid. I’ve come so far in accepting myself, too far to let someone make me feel like I’m not good enough because I’m not “manly.” I heard that enough from my dad growing up.

What are your thoughts? How manly does a man have to be to join a monastery?

He sounds like a repressed gay person tbh.

 

[Sean_St_Jude]

I feel a strong vocation to monasticism, and I have found a monastery that is on the point of accepting my application, and is enthusiastic about my entering. I’ve had to put it off until next summer to do one more year of school (to please my mother, a prerequisite for entry )

I was on the phone today with one of my superiors. He had a few questions to ask me last minute. One of them was about my same sex attraction.

Context: I’m attracted to the same sex, and not to the opposite sex. I’ve never been sexually active, gone on a date, or even kissed anyone. I’ve always wanted to be a monk, and always been attracted to celibacy. My SSA is really not an issue at all.

Then, I was terrified on the phone. My superior asked me if I was manly. This is a very sensitive and insecure thing for me to talk about with anyone.

I confided in him that I was attracted to the same sex, and that it was just my sinful predisposition, which I’ve chosen not to indulge. He twisted my words into saying that same sex attraction was some confusion from my past, and that if I wasn’t discerning monasticism I’d have no problem marrying a woman and having a family.

Yeah, right.

I want to be honest with him, but I don’t know how I’m supposed to when he seems to uncomfortable with the idea of a person with same sex attraction being celibate and accepting that they’ll never change. As it’s really not that big of a deal, especially since I am celibate, I don’t care too much. I could be heterosexual for all anyone knows, because I don’t express my sexuality.

But then we got to manliness. Father said that he needed manly men in the monastery, and that he valued manliness and didn’t like effeminate men.

Obviously, I’ll need to be strong and not averse to hard work. Check. But manly? I don’t understand why that’s such a big deal.

He asked me if I was manly. I didn’t know how to respond. I guess I’m manly.

Are they going to accept or reject me based on my manliness? How I walk and talk, what movies I like, and things like that?

I want to join this community so bad, and give my life to Christ. Now, I’m afraid. I’ve come so far in accepting myself, too far to let someone make me feel like I’m not good enough because I’m not “manly.” I heard that enough from my dad growing up.

What are your thoughts? How manly does a man have to be to join a monastery?

I too have SSA. In my opinion, you are manly enough to have remained chaste and have committed yourself to a life of chastity. I have been chaste for fourteen years and know that it’s been possible not to lust because it’s God doing the work. Please don’t let this turn you off from the Church. If anything, think about whether you would like this brother to be your superior. Maybe God has other plans for you. Another order, maybe? I stand by you and very proudly because you have done what’s right, and that’s what matters in God’s eyes. Jesus Christ will help you.