Being against same-sex marriage, assumed to be hateful

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No, I’m not. Privately held bigotry isn’t a valid reason to deny service. It’s illegal.
“Bigotry” is such an ugly word.

What “is legal” is not necessarily a good basis for defining bigotry. Years ago, keeping slaves was legal, so by implication those who opposed slavery were merely exemplifying “privately held bigotry.”

The dictionary definition of bigotry is “intolerance against those who hold different opinions from oneself.” By that definition, you are showing intolerance merely by labeling an opinion that differs from yours as “privately held bigotry.”

Apparently, your appeal to the legality question is an attempt to enshrine your opinion as that which is the de facto, correct one.

Unfortunately, as we have seen from history, the law is not always correct, which still makes, according to the dictionary definition, your claim of “privately held bigotry” to be just as bigoted, i.e., intolerant of the views of others, a view as the one you attempt to discredit.

Now, if what is legal is not the ultimate determiner of the “correct” view and a strong case can be made that homosexual “marriage” is simply an impossible entity, as, say, a square circle is, then a view that refuses to acknowledge “homosexual marriage” is not bigoted, but rather, logical and realistic.

You might insist, being a square circle affirmer, that those who deny that possibility are merely bigoted, I guess you can make that, which can only be characterized as a bigoted, claim - since your claim shows intolerance of the views of others - but, by itself, that does not make square circles a reality.
 
“Bigotry” is such an ugly word.

What “is legal” is not necessarily a good basis for defining bigotry. Years ago, keeping slaves was legal, so by implication those who opposed slavery were merely exemplifying “privately held bigotry.”

The dictionary definition of bigotry is “intolerance against those who hold different opinions from oneself.” By that definition, you are showing intolerance merely by labeling an opinion that differs from yours as “privately held bigotry.”

Apparently, your appeal to the legality question is an attempt to enshrine your opinion as that which is the de facto, correct one.

Unfortunately, as we have seen from history, the law is not always correct, which still makes, according to the dictionary definition, your claim of “privately held bigotry” to be just as bigoted, i.e., intolerant of the views of others, a view as the one you attempt to discredit.

Now, if what is legal is not the ultimate determiner of the “correct” view and a strong case can be made that homosexual “marriage” is simply an impossible entity, as, say, a square circle is, then a view that refuses to acknowledge “homosexual marriage” is not bigoted, but rather, logical and realistic.

You might insist, being a square circle affirmer, that those who deny that possibility are merely bigoted, I guess you can make that, which can only be characterized as a bigoted, claim - since your claim shows intolerance of the views of others - but, by itself, that does not make square circles a reality.
I posted the definition earlier to point out, it’s not hatred, it’s bigotry.
adjective
1.
having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one’s own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others.
Obstinate and prejudiced intolerance are think are important qualifiers. It’s not simply a difference of opinion.

Slavery isn’t a good analogy. A slave isn’t a willing participant. People in gay marriages are. No one is forced to get gay married.

I can affirm gay marriage and it doesn’t disparage or negate other forms of marriage, so I think making a case for intolerance is hard to make. It is more inclusive not less. There is room for many forms of marriage Catholic Marriage, Protestant Marriage, Jewish marriage, Muslim marriage, and Civil marriage, gay and straight.

It’s not as if every time a gay couple is married a heterosexual couple has to get divorced or are not allowed to marry in the first place.
 
Is it not bigotry for you to be intolerant to the views of others here?
I’m not intolerant. I tolerate them quite well 🙂 That’s how I am able to have a civil discussion about it.

I’m not disparaging the Catholic Sacrament of Marriage. It is a grace that a gay couple will never receive. A civil marriage is a different thing entirely. See, both sets of people can have what they want. Tolerance.
 
I posted the definition earlier to point out, it’s not hatred, it’s bigotry.
adjective
1.
having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one’s own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others.
By this definition of bigotry, you have to assume that all Catholics are obstinate - that we haven’t actually considered the issue and come to a conclusion after weighing the merits of the opposing argument.

You also have to assume that we are indeed being prejudiced.
: an unfair feeling of dislike for a person or group because of race, sex, religion, etc.
: a feeling of like or dislike for someone or something especially when it is not reasonable or logical
This means you have to either make an assumption (which you can’t logically do), or once again prove the feelings are indeed unfair and not the result of a logical case. Since many logical cases for why we are opposed to same sex marriage have been given, I don’t think it would be fair to make the claim that we are being bigoted.

If it is unfair and illogical to make that claim, I would have to conclude you are acting with prejudice.
 
No, I’m not. Privately held bigotry isn’t a valid reason to deny service. It’s illegal.
I believe it depends on how you define bigotry or discrimination.

Would you say my beleif that marriage is only between a man and a woman is bigotry or discrimination?

Because, just to use an example, I was on another thread talking about what other people may require you to do for work and I used Abortion as an example for a doctor, to which someone posted this -
constraints are necessary to ensure the legal, equitable, and efficient delivery of health care:
students and trainees must be aware of the commitments of the profession and be prepared to undertake these or not become doctors
The medical profession has an obligation to ensure that all patients are aware of the full range of services to which they are entitled
Any would-be conscientious objector must ensure that patients know about and receive care that they are entitled to from another professional in a timely manner that does not compromise their access to care
Doctors who compromise the delivery of medical services to patients on conscience grounds must be punished through removal of licence to practise and other legal mechanisms
The place for expression and consideration of different values is at the level of policy relating to public medicine.
In the case of this, Abortion is a medical service. Abortion is labelled as part of health care.

In other words I read “Doctors who compromise the delivery of medical services (ie Abortions) to patients on conscience grounds must be punished through removal of licence to practise and other legal mechanisms.” Do you agree with this statement Roscoe Turner?

And this is when Women apparantly have the right to decide about their own bodies, so I wonder where or how far it will go when homosexual couples have the right to marriage?

I also had another person relate the beleif that marriage is only between a man and a woman to the persecution of the blacks, to the KKK.

Obviously I am against discrimination, and would be very much against the KKK and persecution of anyone based on the colour of their skin and also their sexual orientation. However what happens when discrimination includes the beleif that marriage is only between a man and a woman? am I discriminating by saying that marriage is only between a man and a woman Roscoe Turner? Do you think I am? and if discrimination is wrong and unjust, wouldn’t a just society put laws in place to stop people from discrimination toward others?

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
Slavery isn’t a good analogy. A slave isn’t a willing participant. People in gay marriages are. No one is forced to get gay married.
And yet it seems that business people are being forced into participating in homosexual “marriage” left and right, and you support this coercion. If this is all about tolerance, and all about consenting adults being left to do what they want without ideological interference, where is the freedom of workers to obey their consciences and not participate in gravely sinful activities? It has nothing to do with who the participants are, what their views or race or sexual orientation is. I know these businesses would have no trouble furnishing, e.g. a cake to a homosexual man for his birthday party. The issue is not the type of person involved, it is the thing that they intend to do.
 
and if discrimination is wrong and unjust, wouldn’t a just society put laws in place to stop people from discrimination toward others?
In many places such laws are in place.

And people use them to good effect to sue.

And win.

Sarah x 🙂
 
Since this topic has veered off to whether or not businesses have the right to discriminate on the issue of SSM, which I was not asking, I will provide sources for those questioning Christian persecution in China.

persecution.org/category/countries/asia/china/: many reports of Christian persecution by the government

thenewamerican.com/world-news/asia/item/14676-china-s-churches-face-renewed-government-persecution Well sourced article.

chinaaid.org/2013/01/2012s-top-10-cases-of-persecution-of.html 2012 Top 10 Cases of Persucution, I’m sure you can validate these incidences took place if you Google them.

From the U.K.'s Telegraph: telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9762745/Christianity-close-to-extinction-in-Middle-East.html
State hostility towards Christianity is particularly rife in China, where more Christians are imprisoned than in any other country in the world, according to the report.
It quotes Ma Hucheng, an advisor to the Chinese government, who claimed in an article last year that the US has backed the growth of the Protestant Church in China as a vehicle for political dissidence.
“Western powers, with America at their head, deliberately export Christianity to China and carry out all kinds of illegal evangelistic activities,” he wrote in the China Social Sciences Press.
“Their basic aim is to use Christianity to change the character of the regime…in China and overturn it,” he added.
 
Since this topic has veered off
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

You’re actually derailing your own thread to make a claim that isn’t disputed 😃

I’ve already linked to official sources highlighting the problems on the ground in China.

The other poster claimed China **sentenced people to death **for nothing other than they were Christians.

I asked for official government **policy **documents backing up this claim.

Of course, the poster couldn’t produce any, because they made it up and then went on to make more baseless, misleading and ill informed claims about the IMF and Cuba which I corrected 😃

I can’t believe you’ve actually derailed your own thread for this 😃

RedFox0456 I had a reply for your last post to me, almost complete, however I’m unsubscribing from this thread now as it seems there’s some who are more interested in point scoring than actually discussing the issue.

Perhaps on another thread 👍

Sarah x 🙂
 
I am not sure how to handle a friend of mine who points out anytime I support traditional values or that Christians are being persecuted for their faith in society, he argues that we are hateful because we don’t support same-sex marriage. He argues because of this, gays are hated and persecuted “en masse” and we need to let them have the right to get married. He says when we don’t treat people equally, it gives people the perceived right to bully people (he is always referring to gays when he is arguing these points).

I argue we as Christians have the religious freedom to oppose same-sex marriage and we are, generally, not hateful towards people who are gay. But he keeps assuming we’re homophobic, hateful, persecutors of homosexuals, and we as Christians would be better off just to give up our opposition to same-sex marriage.

How can I counter this? I am a little sick of being assumed to be hateful because I believe in traditional values. Oh, and this person tells me he is a Christian but he doesn’t respect my faith that tells me I cannot, in good conscience, support same-sex marriage.

Help please, where am I going wrong?!?
I apologize, I didn’t have time to read the entire thread.

If I were you, I would try to be as patient as possible to lay out your bulletpoints.

But do not get to the point where you disturb your own peace and become angry.

I don’t think you’re going wrong. At some point, all we can do is pray for them.
 
I posted the definition earlier to point out, it’s not hatred, it’s bigotry.
adjective
1.
having or revealing an obstinate belief in the superiority of one’s own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others.
The problem with this definition is that it would, by definition, imply that every belief concerning obligatory moral principles would be “intolerant” precisely because moral principles would supercede or “be superior” to opinions to the contrary.

It would be impossible to hold any kind of “moral” position because every moral position - given that moral beliefs are by definition, obligatory (and so allowing no tolerance) - would be, ipso facto, bigoted because anyone holding a moral position would claim such a position to be superior and intolerant to all immoral opinions to the contrary.

Your point is nothing less than an argument for moral relativism and against any possible supreme moral position. It assumes no one is right and every position is merely an opinion.
Obstinate and prejudiced intolerance are think are important qualifiers. It’s not simply a difference of opinion.

Slavery isn’t a good analogy. A slave isn’t a willing participant. People in gay marriages are. No one is forced to get gay married.
Ah, yes, but business owners ARE being forced to provide a product they, in good conscience, are unwilling to provide. They are unwilling participants in what they view as an immoral business activity: providing goods their conscience is telling them they are not to provide. They are being forced to provide these against their will. These business owners are not forcing anyone to not be “gay” they are simply voicing a moral objection to the very idea that “marriage” can be so reinterpreted.

What you seem to be up to is attempting to re-categorize a moral position as “bigoted” in order to dismiss it. Again, by your definition of bigoted, every moral position that disagrees with yours could be categorized as bigoted merely because it differs from yours.

Unfortunately for you, however, you are not immune from the charge of bigoted since your position remains “bigoted” under your definition because you, too, are showing “an obstinate belief in the superiority of one’s own opinions and a prejudiced intolerance of the opinions of others” regarding your opinion of traditional marriage.
I can affirm gay marriage and it doesn’t disparage or negate other forms of marriage, so I think making a case for intolerance is hard to make. It is more inclusive not less. There is room for many forms of marriage Catholic Marriage, Protestant Marriage, Jewish marriage, Muslim marriage, and Civil marriage, gay and straight.
Every other form of marriage you list has one distinctive trait - the possibility of creating new life, whether that life be Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Moslem or “civil.” We are not talking about being more inclusive to a workable definition of marriage, we are speaking of redefining to the point of making it unrecognizable.

I have challenged others in these fora before to provide a definition of marriage that includes same sex couples that does not open, by definition, marriage to two brothers, two sisters, mother-daughter, father-son, and a host of other unsavory possibilities. Marriage simply becomes a meaningless reality - which is, I suggest, the goal of the proponents of redefinition.

You are welcome to provide a definition of marriage that doesn’t make marriage a meaningless legal term.
It’s not as if every time a gay couple is married a heterosexual couple has to get divorced or are not allowed to marry in the first place.
The problem is with the redefinition itself which will result in a complete loss of any legal protection to the biological capacity of two human beings to create new life. You may not see any value in that, but that simply means you don’t understand why such a capacity requires legal safeguard. That is clear from the mere fact you are defending redefinition.
 
RedFox0456 I had a reply for your last post to me, almost complete, however I’m unsubscribing from this thread now as it seems there’s some who are more interested in point scoring than actually discussing the issue.
People being off topic didn’t seem to be an issue before. Interesting to make a note that a response couldn’t be given while shifting the reason elsewhere. (speculation, but not unwarranted)
 
And this assumption, perversely, is one of bigotry, for it discriminates against those who posit that there is, indeed, a moral absolute.
That is correct.

How can any moral absolutes exist under terms which define obligatory as “intolerant” of alternatives and therefore bigoted.
 
By this definition of bigotry, you have to assume that all Catholics are obstinate - that we haven’t actually considered the issue and come to a conclusion after weighing the merits of the opposing argument.

You also have to assume that we are indeed being prejudiced.

This means you have to either make an assumption (which you can’t logically do), or once again prove the feelings are indeed unfair and not the result of a logical case. Since many logical cases for why we are opposed to same sex marriage have been given, I don’t think it would be fair to make the claim that we are being bigoted.

If it is unfair and illogical to make that claim, I would have to conclude you are acting with prejudice.
I would categorize the catholic position as obstinate.
stubbornly refusing to change one’s opinion or chosen course of action, despite attempts to persuade one to do so.
Is there any argument that would persuade you that gay marriage is acceptable?

If the answer is “no” then you are obstinate.

As for prejudice a dogmatic position is prejudiced you have formed your opinion prior to any evidence or argument.

Gay marriage does not fit the definition or order of the Catholic Sacrament of Marriage. An argument for that, in my opinion, is a non-starter.

Every other marriage ceremony outside the Church isn’t the sacrament of Marriage. Those marriages don’t devalue or discriminate against the Sacrament of Catholic Marriage. If you can see any validity in non-sacramental marriages you can see that maybe, perhaps that gay marriage has at least the right to make it’s case. If you dismiss it outright, you’ve pre judged it. You are prejudiced.
 
I would categorize the catholic position as obstinate.

Is there any argument that would persuade you that gay marriage is acceptable?

If the answer is “no” then you are obstinate.
Is there any argument that would persuade you that rape, child molestation or the murder of innocent individuals are acceptable?

If the answer is no, then you are obstinate.

I don’t see how anyone could come up with an argument to support any of them, so an answer of “yes” might save you from the charge of obstinacy, but it would certainly make you, at the very least, amoral or, more likely, immoral.
If you dismiss it outright, you’ve pre judged it. You are prejudiced.
Why does “dismissing it” necessarily entail it was done “outright.” Perhaps a judgement only came after a great deal of thought and by deep conviction. That is far from prejudiced, which means to “pre” judge or judge without adequate consideration.

Again, the presumption that your position is the correct one is showing.
 
Is there any argument that would persuade you that gay marriage is acceptable?

If the answer is “no” then you are obstinate.
Is there any argument that would persuade you that women ought not be taught to read?

If the answer is “no”, then YOU are obstinate.

:eek:
 
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