Being Born Again

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brkn1 said:
That was simply “…for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness.”

Do you really think Jesus needed to be baptized physically or spiritually?

That was just so that He could identify with us. He did not need to be born again. He was no sinner.
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It is irrelevent if Christ had to - You are not Him - DO IT!!!

Matthew 28 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
 
dosdog said:
It is irrelevent if Christ had to - You are not Him - DO IT!!!

Matthew 28 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
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I already have been baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit after I was already born again.

This method is the same as what is described in Acts 8:35-39.
Philip preached Jesus unto the eunuch, and the eunuch had a strong urge to be baptized after his eyes were openned to the Truth by the Holy Spirit.
He requested to be baptized.
Philip asked and confirmed that the eunuch believed with all his heart that “Jesus Christ was the Son of God”.
The eunuch confessed this with his mouth. The eunuch had to already be born again to do so honestly.

There was then the later physical full immersion baptism (sprinkling would be fine also). This physical baptism was really part of the eunuch’s public confession and it was in obedience to Jesus’ command and example to do so.

If the Catholic Church could do that last part of catching away the baptizer (Phillip) by the Holy Spirit, I would be down there tomorrow to see that. That would be a pretty convincing miracle that they have the monopoly they claim on administering baptism.
 
brkn1 said:
I already have been baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit after I was already born again.

This method is the same as what is described in Acts 8:35-39.
Philip preached Jesus unto the eunuch, and the eunuch had a strong urge to be baptized after his eyes were openned to the Truth by the Holy Spirit.
He requested to be baptized.
Philip asked and confirmed that the eunuch believed with all his heart that “Jesus Christ was the Son of God”.
The eunuch confessed this with his mouth. The eunuch had to already be born again to do so honestly.

There was then the later physical full immersion baptism (sprinkling would be fine also). This physical baptism was really part of the eunuch’s public confession and it was in obedience to Jesus’ command and example to do so.

If the Catholic Church could do that last part of catching away the baptizer (Phillip) by the Holy Spirit, I would be down there tomorrow to see that. That would be a pretty convincing miracle that they have the monopoly they claim on administering baptism.
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Here is your Monopoly
1 Corinthians 1 14 I give God thanks, that I baptized none of you but Crispus and Caius;

And I suppose you were baptized in the Jordan River?
 
dosdog said:
Here is your Monopoly
1 Corinthians 1 14 I give God thanks, that I baptized none of you but Crispus and Caius;

And I suppose you were baptized in the Jordan River?
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It is interesting that you would choose that verse to defend the efficacy of baptism.
Paul would never have said something such as that, if water baptism had the ability to make people born again or imbued with the Holy Spirit. He did whatever he could to bring people to the knowledge of Jesus. I guess he did not think it does what you think.

As far as the Jordan River water, I have to depend on evaporation to maybe get some of that pure holy Jordan water over here into the Pacific Ocean. It will of course be a little diluted, but beggers can’t be choosers.
I borrowed a little holy water from the local Catholic church just to make sure there was at least some holy water in the ocean before I got immersed.
 
brkn1 said:
It is interesting that you would choose that verse to defend the efficacy of baptism.
Paul would never have said something such as that, if water baptism had the ability to make people born again or imbued with the Holy Spirit. He did whatever he could to bring people to the knowledge of Jesus. I guess he did not think it does what you think.

As far as the Jordan River water, I have to depend on evaporation to maybe get some of that pure holy Jordan water over here into the Pacific Ocean. It will of course be a little diluted, but beggers can’t be choosers.
I borrowed a little holy water from the local Catholic church just to make sure there was at least some holy water in the ocean before I got immersed.
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1 Corinthians 1 10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you;

Ephesians 4 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Pollution threatens revered Jordan River
uswaternews.com/archives/arcglobal/5pollthre11.html
 
dosdog said:
John 1 26 John answered them, saying: I baptize with water; but there hath stood one in the midst of you, whom you know not.

Matthew 11 20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein were done the most of his miracles, for that they had not done penance.

Wisdom 1 5 For the Holy Spirit of discipline will flee from the deceitful, and will withdraw himself from thoughts that are without understanding, and he shall not abide when iniquity cometh in.
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John 1:26 needs to be finished with John 1:33…“And I knew Him not: but He sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, the same is He which baptizeth with the Holy Spirit.” I prefer that baptism over any other.

I can see why Wisdom 1 5 was not included in the KJV Bible.
It contradicts the idea that we could “grieve” the indwelling Holy Spirit, “whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”
 
brkn1 said:
John 1:26 needs to be finished with John 1:33…“And I knew Him not: but He sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, the same is He which baptizeth with the Holy Spirit.” I prefer that baptism over any other.

I can see why Wisdom 1 5 was not included in the KJV Bible.
It contradicts the idea that we could “grieve” the indwelling Holy Spirit, “whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”
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Matthew 11
20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein were done the most of his miracles, for that they had not done penance.
21 Woe to thee, Corozain, woe to thee, Bethsaida: for if in Tyre and Sidon had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in you, they had long ago done penance in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou Capharnaum, shalt thou be exalted up to heaven? thou shalt go down even unto hell. For if in Sodom had been wrought the miracles that have been wrought in thee, perhaps it had remained unto this day. 24 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee

1568 AD: The Bishops Bible Printed; The Bible of which the King James was a Revision (80 Books).

1609 AD: The Douay Old Testament is added to the Rheims New Testament (of 1582) Making the First Complete English Catholic Bible; Translated from the Latin Vulgate (80 Books).

1611 AD: The King James Bible Printed; Originally with All 80 Books. The Apocrypha was Officially Removed in 1885 Leaving Only 66 Books.
 
brkn1 said:
If that is your doctrine of exactly how it still works today, then let’s see some of those miracles to go along with it. That is how it worked then.

You seem to be taking what Jesus said was only the Holy Spirit’s choosing of when and how a person gets born again. If you limit it to a physical ceremony by a man, you are in effect determining the when and how of the Holy Spirit’s work of saving, which is unscriptural.
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Come to our churches and you will see many miracles. I’ve seen the lame walk and the Deaf speak with tongues. I’ve seen cancer healed, epilepsy healed (me), diabetes healed… many by the laying on of hands.

First you cannot challenge the word. They were baptized in REAL water in Jesus name and they were FILLED with the Holy Ghost and led of the HOly Ghost.

I believe what you are missing is that baptism is not just a physical ceremony. According to Romans and Galatians you are baptized into christ’s death spiritually.

Thats more than just a ceremony.

You compare the doctrines of the church from time past… all the way back to the early church leaders… they ALL believed water baptism was essential.

Are we just going to INGNORE those things?

I think that would be most atrocious.
 
How about the thief on the cross? He was born again and wasn’t baptized by water.

**The thief said… **

Luk 23:42
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Luk 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Here’s why the thief entered heaven.

Jesus said…
Mat 10:32
'Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Luk 12:8
Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

Jhn 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jhn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
 
Hmmm…

Let’s see what the earliest believers in Christ believed about baptism…
And concerning baptism, thus baptize ye: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. 2. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. 3. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. 4. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.
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Didache -~70AD

The Didache is the earliest known PROCEDURAL document for many aspects of Christian Life.

Obviously, Baptism to the earliest Christians meant WATER baptism… Can a Spiritual only baptism occur… Yes… but only in extreme circumstances… (IE the Thief…)

If you wish to say the Baptism is NOT required, then you go against the words of Christ himself… There is NO WAY to say baptism is not required unless you twist scripture. DO not tell me that Paul only believed in Spiritual Baptism because this would go COUNTER to Jesus when he said you MUST be born again of water AND spirit, IE Baptism.

It is POSSIBLE to see spiritual only in Paul’s letters if you read it out of Context with the rest of scripture… but you need to also understand other things…
  1. if Jesus himself was baptized… why do you think you can get around baptism.
  2. If Jesus Said Be Born again of water and spirit… why would you think that it means you DON’T have to be born again of water AND spirit (not just spirit)
  3. Why on Earth would Peter say Baptism now saves you… Again, he could not have been talking about spiritual only because Jesus said Spirit AND Water
  4. Though Paul can be misconstrued to say Spirit Only… keep in mind even Peter said Paul was hard to understand… In Other words… he is saying Paul can be easily misunderstood
  5. Why Would Scripture say that we are to be baptized in the Name of the Father son and the holy spirit and in a second place say baptized in the name of Jesus. Makes no sense if you are talking about Spirit only…
Forgive me for this tiny rant as I generally don't like doing rants... But it seems to me that it is Easy to look to Paul for proof of, well any belief simply because he is all over the place.. Paul uses some of the most allegorical language in many places thus making it difficult to fully understand as PETER said. Too often some protestants pit the words of Paul against Jesus, and if there is a discourse like saying it is is spirit only according to Paul, but Where Jesus says it is water and spirit, they will alter there understanding of what JESUS says to follow what paul says...
Thats why you get people STUPIDLY saying the Jesus meant being born of water means being ‘BORN’. and born of the spirit means ‘Baptism’

Show me anywhere in the early writings this was taught… Anywhere…

You won’t because it is a NEW invention to fit what people want to believe…

As a note…

Baptism does create a new creature…
It removes the stain of the sin of ADAM… Repentance goes with it if you are of reason… but Baptism is to remove original sin…

In Christ
 
believers said:
How about the thief on the cross? He was born again and wasn’t baptized by water.

**The thief said… **

Luk 23:42
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Luk 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Here’s why the thief entered heaven.

Jesus said…
Mat 10:32
'Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Luk 12:8
Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

Jhn 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Jhn 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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we are speaking of norms here, not exceptions. do you know the difference? baptism by blood and baptism by desire are two aspects of baptism which are exceptions. the thief on the cross received this most likely.

by the way he did not go to paradise to be with Jesus that day, since Jesus did not ascend into heaven until after he rose from the dead and spent about 40 days on the earth (i have not yet ascended to my Father)
 
believers said:
How about the thief on the cross? He was born again and wasn’t baptized by water.
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If you believe that finding an exception exempts everyone, then you should say we don’t have to call on Jesus for healing…just wait for a centurion to do it for you!

Are you saying we should all wait for the final moments of our lives to repent? Is the thief on the cross really your model?? Those apostles really wasted a lottttttttttttttttttttt of time baptizing thousands and thousands of people for no purpose…
 
Righteousone said:
Being born again is not about beginning a new life believing in Jesus as most people think.
It is simply not a change in human beings, but a Transformation that comes from God.
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I pray that He would grant me such a grace.

:crossrc:
 
Righteousone said:
Well, I should of said “awakening” instead of born again as I don’t like that term. I meant being awakened as lapsed Catholics as I was. I was “awakened” in my faith some years ago and have never been the same.

:signofcross: Thank you Jesus for finding me.
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Fundamentalists have hijacked the term “born again” to mean an awakening. A response to a life-changing situation.
 
Jimsdun said:
Fundamentalists have hijacked the term “born again” to mean an awakening. A response to a life-changing situation.
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It is a transformation from God. When one says they are born again, I say well, I did it right the first time. 😃
 
All Christians previous to the deformation in the 16th century believed being born again is water baptism. All.

what, was everyone wrong previous to the deformation?
 
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