Being Born Catholic: Preordained or Accident of Birth?

[meltzerboy]

Do Catholics believe that being born Catholic is preordained before one’s birth or an accident of birth? If the latter, then is it believed one might just as easily have been born a Protestant, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, etc.? And if that is so, would one then find one’s way toward Catholicism based on reason–that is, comparing its beliefs to other religions–or based on an epiphany leading one toward conversion?

 

[Julian0404]

Let’s start with the basic premise, which is “Is birth itself preordained or an accident?” Being Jewish, you believe in the One True GOD, and you believe in HIS almighty power and you believe in the Old Testament, wherein it states, “…before you were born, I knew you…”.

Therefore, “birth” is preordained, which makes all facets and parameters of your birth also planned by GOD.

The second question is “How does one become Catholic”. Through history we find both of the ways you mentioned, Saul of Tarsus, a Jew was converted through the intervention of JESUS, as were several saints who had personal interaction with JESUS.
We also find that through study and questioning and debate and argument many more people come to Catholicism. So the answer to your second question is “yes”, both ways have been applied by GOD to souls, including those who were born Catholic, fell away and returned.

 

[Br.Carlo]

God’s peace. “Do Catholics believe that being born Catholic is preordained before one’s birth or an accident of birth? If the latter, then is it believed one might just as easily have been born a Protestant, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, etc.? And if that is so, would one then find one’s way toward Catholicism based on reason–that is, comparing its beliefs to other religions–or based on an epiphany leading one toward conversion?”

Preordained? God, is his infinite wisdom and foreknowledge, knows who are his from eternity past. But his foreknowledge in no way puts us on a track against which our free wills are inoperative.

Accident of birth? This is how an atheist might explain it–everything is a throw of the dice, without God or any sort of divine Providence. I can assure you that the Catholic Church teaches no such thing.

As far as how one finds his way to the Catholic Church: there is nothing inconsistent with our reason cooperating with the grace of God, who wills that none should perish, but that all should come to eternal life. I certainly see this “both/and” principle at work in my own life, who went from atheist to agnostic to Presbyterian to Episcopalian to Catholic, where I will remain to my life’s end by the grace of God. Blessings, ~Br. Carlo~

 

[meltzerboy]

Excellent, informed response, and I thank you for it!
One more question based on your answer regarding birth and its parameters as being preordained: then, from the Catholic perspective, would you say that G-d is making it a little more challenging for those who are not born Catholic to find their way to the true faith (according to Catholicism) as distinguished from those who are born into the faith? And, as a consequence of that extra challenge, do you think or does the Church teach that G-d is somewhat more merciful toward those who may not find their way toward Catholicism from the outside than those who are given a somewhat easier challenge by being born into the faith?

 

[meltzerboy]

God’s peace. “Do Catholics believe that being born Catholic is preordained before one’s birth or an accident of birth? If the latter, then is it believed one might just as easily have been born a Protestant, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, etc.? And if that is so, would one then find one’s way toward Catholicism based on reason–that is, comparing its beliefs to other religions–or based on an epiphany leading one toward conversion?”

Preordained? God, is his infinite wisdom and foreknowledge, knows who are his from eternity past. But his foreknowledge in no way puts us on a track against which our free wills are inoperative.

Accident of birth? This is how an atheist might explain it–everything is a throw of the dice, without God or any sort of divine Providence. I can assure you that the Catholic Church teaches no such thing.

As far as how one finds his way to the Catholic Church: there is nothing inconsistent with our reason cooperating with the grace of God, who wills that none should perish, but that all should come to eternal life. I certainly see this “both/and” principle at work in my own life, who went from atheist to agnostic to Presbyterian to Episcopalian to Catholic, where I will remain to my life’s end by the grace of God. Blessings, ~Br. Carlo~

Thank you for your informative response. Yes, I realize that free will is an important feature of Catholicism, as it is of Judaism. Do you believe that eternal life can be reached only through Catholicism, and not Protestantism?

 

[Gregory_I]

GOd has freely ordained what our conditions will be:

He creates our particular souls and delivers them into particular circumstances, willing some to be in one circumstance, and others in a nother set of circumstances:

No accidents, only subjects.

 

[meltzerboy]

Let’s start with the basic premise, which is “Is birth itself preordained or an accident?” Being Jewish, you believe in the One True GOD, and you believe in HIS almighty power and you believe in the Old Testament, wherein it states, “…before you were born, I knew you…”.

Therefore, “birth” is preordained, which makes all facets and parameters of your birth also planned by GOD.

The second question is “How does one become Catholic”. Through history we find both of the ways you mentioned, Saul of Tarsus, a Jew was converted through the intervention of JESUS, as were several saints who had personal interaction with JESUS.
We also find that through study and questioning and debate and argument many more people come to Catholicism. So the answer to your second question is “yes”, both ways have been applied by GOD to souls, including those who were born Catholic, fell away and returned.

Thank you again. My response to your response is the posting below.

 

[Julian0404]

Excellent, informed response, and I thank you for it!
One more question based on your answer regarding birth and its parameters as being preordained: then, from the Catholic perspective, would you say that G-d is making it a little more challenging for those who are not born Catholic to find their way to the true faith (according to Catholicism) as distinguished from those who are born into the faith? And, as a consequence of that extra challenge, do you think or does the Church teach that G-d is somewhat more merciful toward those who may not find their way toward Catholicism from the outside than those who are given a somewhat easier challenge by being born into the faith?

No, in fact just the opposite is true. If you are born Catholic, the heavier burden is upon you, “…to those who have been given much, much will be required/expected…”. A Catholic cannot claim ignorance before GOD, as can a person who was truly raised and dies in ignorance of the One True GOD. The same is true for those who convert, and for those who come to the understanding of the One True GOD, but fail to convert for pressures of family, peers or society. Once you have come to “know GOD”, to not embrace HIM fully, completely and place HIS yoke upon your shoulders and carry HIS burden is to sin against HIM, and reject HIM.
However, in HIS mercy HE has provided for this condition of sin with the advent of HIS SON, JESUS CHRIST our LORD and SAVIOR. Through HIM we can confess our sins with HIS priests and return to HIS grace and good standing. In Jewish tradition, every 7 years is the cleansing of all sins and transgressions (correct me if I have mistated out of ignorance), but in Catholicism, we have cleansing with the priests on a daily basis if needed - a truly precious gift from GOD.

And yes, JESUS in HIS judgements upon mankind has expressed to the saints that HE will show more consideration and mercy to the truly ignorant than to the truly professed of faith, but not living in the faith. GOD has also provided for all mankind to “know HIM” through HIS creation so that over time, even the most ignorant and unknowing peoples can come to some understanding of “a GOD”, and with time, the One True GOD.

Catholics, Christians and all peoples easily and quickly convince ourselves, in our consupiscience, that we “are good” and in GOD’s favor, when in fact we are living in terrible sin by supporting abortion through the good sounding “pro-choice” lable without thinking that the choice is “murder or not murder”. Or that by participating in a sexual relationship outside of marriage that GOD approves, when in fact it is a sin against the 10 Commandments. Through the three (3) major sources which mislead humans i.e. our senses, our covetousness, and our desire for “self governance”, we desensitizes our “morality” and it becomes dead to our sinful actions and we grow comfortable in our sin, and simultaneously comfortable with living in our supposed-faith with sin, and voluntarily separate ourselves from GOD.

 

[laszlo]

No one gets privileges due to his/her birth related to the eternal life.

Does who get more, are required more in response, and if they do not return their talents with interest they are rejected.

In the Old Testament God had specific promises to the Jews, as a Nation. The Nation did not recognized her time, and with the Temple their promises were terminated, exactly inherited fully by the Church (as community) The only promise for the Jews now is, that on the end of the times with great suffering they will testify that the historical Jesus was and is the Messias. This requires their survival.

 

[meltzerboy]

No, in fact just the opposite is true. If you are born Catholic, the heavier burden is upon you, “…to those who have been given much, much will be required/expected…”. A Catholic cannot claim ignorance before GOD, as can a person who was truly raised and dies in ignorance of the One True GOD. The same is true for those who convert, and for those who come to the understanding of the One True GOD, but fail to convert for pressures of family, peers or society. Once you have come to “know GOD”, to not embrace HIM fully, completely and place HIS yoke upon your shoulders and carry HIS burden is to sin against HIM, and reject HIM.
However, in HIS mercy HE has provided for this condition of sin with the advent of HIS SON, JESUS CHRIST our LORD and SAVIOR. Through HIM we can confess our sins with HIS priests and return to HIS grace and good standing. In Jewish tradition, every 7 years is the cleansing of all sins and transgressions (correct me if I have mistated out of ignorance), but in Catholicism, we have cleansing with the priests on a daily basis if needed - a truly precious gift from GOD.

And yes, JESUS in HIS judgements upon mankind has expressed to the saints that HE will show more consideration and mercy to the truly ignorant than to the truly professed of faith, but not living in the faith. GOD has also provided for all mankind to “know HIM” through HIS creation so that over time, even the most ignorant and unknowing peoples can come to some understanding of “a GOD”, and with time, the One True GOD.

Catholics, Christians and all peoples easily and quickly convince ourselves, in our consupiscience, that we “are good” and in GOD’s favor, when in fact we are living in terrible sin by supporting abortion through the good sounding “pro-choice” lable without thinking that the choice is “murder or not murder”. Or that by participating in a sexual relationship outside of marriage that GOD approves, when in fact it is a sin against the 10 Commandments. Through the three (3) major sources which mislead humans i.e. our senses, our covetousness, and our desire for “self governance”, we desensitizes our “morality” and it becomes dead to our sinful actions and we grow comfortable in our sin, and simultaneously comfortable with living in our supposed-faith with sin, and voluntarily separate ourselves from GOD.

I’m not going to touch the abortion issue which you raise in the last paragraph, except to say that Torah Judaism has a somewhat different perspective on it. As to the seven-year cleansing in Judaism that you mention, I must admit I had never heard of this before, but I am no Jewish scholar in the Torah or other books of Judaism, being a Reform Jew rather than Orthodox or Conservative. But I’ll ask on the Jewish Forum! Thank you so much for your comments regarding greater responsibility for Catholics: this is quite similar to Jewish thinking that Jews who are raised in a family of Torah instruction bear a greater burden than those Jews, Christians, or others who are ignorant of Torah teachings through no fault of their own. On the other hand, God is merciful to all Jews, indeed to all people. I’m sure that ultimately in the Catholic faith–as in Judaism–the decision regarding salvation is left to God and man has no right to prejudge.

 

[meltzerboy]

No one gets privileges due to his/her birth related to the eternal life.

Does who get more, are required more in response, and if they do not return their talents with interest they are rejected.

In the Old Testament God had specific promises to the Jews, as a Nation. The Nation did not recognized her time, and with the Temple their promises were terminated, exactly inherited fully by the Church (as community) The only promise for the Jews now is, that on the end of the times with great suffering they will testify that the historical Jesus was and is the Messias. This requires their survival.

Thank you for this interesting perspective. Is this the mainstream belief in Catholicism? Naturally Judaism has quite a different take on this.

 

[stuart12]

Why God elects to bring one man to eternal life and passes over another man and allows him to perish is a great mystery. Why He brings one man to grace and baptism and not another, again is a mystery. Things and situations only exist as God freely, from all eternity predetermines them and guides our will. This of course our parent’s will to have our baptised.

 

[Timothysis]

Therefore, “birth” is preordained, which makes all facets and parameters of your birth also planned by GOD.

So, if a 15 year old girl gets pregnant from fooling around with the kid next door, was that “planned by GOD???”

 

[puzzleannie]

Do Catholics believe that being born Catholic is preordained before one’s birth or an accident of birth? If the latter, then is it believed one might just as easily have been born a Protestant, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu, etc.? And if that is so, would one then find one’s way toward Catholicism based on reason–that is, comparing its beliefs to other religions–or based on an epiphany leading one toward conversion?

since one becomes Catholic through the sacrament of baptism, not through birth, your thesis does not hold up. Are you trying to say, rather, that the family and culture into one is born is a matter of chance or else is preordained?

 

[meltzerboy]

since one becomes Catholic through the sacrament of baptism, not through birth, your thesis does not hold up. Are you trying to say, rather, that the family and culture into one is born is a matter of chance or else is preordained?

Very good point, and I didn’t realize that since in my faith one is born into the religion. Yes, I mean the family and culture into which one is born.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

There may be a difference between Augustinianism/Thomism and Molinism on this one. But I, following a more Thomistic path, would say that it is part of predestination. Of course, being born into a family of bad/lapsed Catholics may be just as difficult or even more difficult than being born into a family of Protestants or atheists.

 

[meltzerboy]

There may be a difference between Augustinianism/Thomism and Molinism on this one. But I, following a more Thomistic path, would say that it is part of predestination. Of course, being born into a family of bad/lapsed Catholics may be just as difficult or even more difficult than being born into a family of Protestants or atheists.

And those who are predestined to be born into a family of good, not lapsed Catholics are therefore blessed by G-d (although we don’t know why), while the others (Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists, and lapsed Catholics) have to rely on finding, through their own efforts prompted by divine mercy, the true Faith? Or are those who have more of a challenge the truly blessed ones due to the extra effort required in finding G-d? But if they fall short of finding G-d, however, they will be punished severely, according to Catholic teaching, or will their effort be appreciated?

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

And those who are predestined to be born into a family of good, not lapsed Catholics are therefore blessed by G-d (although we don’t know why), while the others (Protestants, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, atheists, and lapsed Catholics) have to rely on finding, through their own efforts prompted by divine mercy, the true Faith? Or are those who have more of a challenge the truly blessed ones due to the extra effort required in finding G-d? But if they fall short of finding G-d, however, they will be punished severely, according to Catholic teaching, or will their effort be appreciated?

Every man is given the graces necessary to save his soul – no one is born who cannot be saved. But some people are predestined to receive greater graces than others. Why? The inscrutable mind of God.

Who receives greater merit? Merit is dependent on how much we respond positively to the graces offered, it is not inversely related to how much grace we are given (as though we were rewarded for the increased effort necessary on our own part) but directly related to how much grace we are given.

If you could quantify grace (which, of course, you can’t) then say Alice was given 100 units of grace at birth. She accepts 20 of these units, God gives her 10 more of which she accepts 7. So thus she has ends up with 27 units of grace. Bob was given 50 units of grace at birth, he accepts 35 of them, God gives him 40 more units of grace, of which he accepts 23. Thus he ends up with 58 units of grace. So Alice started off with more grace but ended up with less. Therefore, Bob’s reward in heaven is greater than Alice’s because he was more receptive to God’s grace.

If merit was inversely related to grace, then Our Lord and Our Lady would have merited little or nothing when in fact Our Lord merited infinitely and Our Lady merited more than all other creatures combined (although not infinitely, being a finite being but a superabundance).

St. Louis de Montfort says:

[Mary’s intentions]
are so pure that she gave more glory to God by the smallest of her actions, say, twirling her distaff, or making a stitch, than did St. Laurence suffering his cruel martyrdom on the grid-iron, and even more than all the saints together in all their most heroic deeds! Mary amassed such a multitude of merits and graces during her sojourn on earth that it would be easier to count the stars in heaven, the drops of water in the ocean or the sands of the sea-shore than count her merits and graces. She thus gave more glory to God than all the angels and saints have given or will ever give him.

Mary merited more than all the martyrs combined because of the purity of her intentions. St. Lawrence or any of the other martyrs were great saints and gave their lives in horrific ways to the greater glory of God but Mary gave more glory to God in a single stitch than all the martyrs combined, why? Because of the superabundance of grace in her soul.

This is also why great saints barely say a Hail Mary and God is ready and willing to give them whatever it is they desire whereas the rest of us pray and pray for years and barely get anywhere. This is the result of merit. The great saint is so perfectly conformed to the will of God that what they will and what God wills are almost perfectly aligned (and for the Blessed Virgin and Our Lord’s human will, they were perfectly aligned) whereas for most of us, we suffer selfishness and ignorance about what is right and most useful for the salvation of our soul and of the world.

This alignment of our will with God’s will is what gains merit. This can only be done through grace since grace is the life of God in the soul. Therefore, the amount of merit a person has is directly proportionate to the amount of grace that a person has in their soul.

Some people are born especially predestinate, such as Our Lady but also the great Prophets of the OT and the great saints of the NT. God always raises up saints to himself by pouring out his grace abundantly upon a person so although it is certainly not impossible for them to sin and they do indeed sin (Our Lady, of course, excepted), they quickly rise back up and continue their climb towards heaven. St. Therese talked about her “elevator” to heaven of her “Little Way” compared to those who climbed the arduous stairs to perfection. God allows everyone some crack of light which they can pursue to find heaven but for some people, it seems He only allows a little crack of darkness for them run away from Him into – that He makes it very difficult (although not impossible) for them to fall into hell. Most of us are somewhere in between. This is the part of the mystery of Predestination.
Rom 8:28-30:

Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity. For we know not what we should pray for as we ought; but the Spirit himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings. And he that searcheth the hearts, knoweth what the Spirit desireth; because he asketh for the saints according to God. And we know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good, to such as, according to his purpose, are called to be saints. For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the firstborn amongst many brethren. And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This is one of the best books on the subject of Predestination:
ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51D56PK87HL.BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01.jpg

 

[meltzerboy]

Every man is given the graces necessary to save his soul – no one is born who cannot be saved. But some people are predestined to receive greater graces than others. Why? The inscrutable mind of God.

Who receives greater merit? Merit is dependent on how much we respond positively to the graces offered, it is not inversely related to how much grace we are given (as though we were rewarded for the increased effort necessary on our own part) but directly related to how much grace we are given.

If you could quantify grace (which, of course, you can’t) then say Alice was given 100 units of grace at birth. She accepts 20 of these units, God gives her 10 more of which she accepts 7. So thus she has ends up with 27 units of grace. Bob was given 50 units of grace at birth, he accepts 35 of them, God gives him 40 more units of grace, of which he accepts 23. Thus he ends up with 58 units of grace. So Alice started off with more grace but ended up with less. Therefore, Bob’s reward in heaven is greater than Alice’s because he was more receptive to God’s grace.

If merit was inversely related to grace, then Our Lord and Our Lady would have merited little or nothing when in fact Our Lord merited infinitely and Our Lady merited more than all other creatures combined (although not infinitely, being a finite being but a superabundance).

St. Louis de Montfort says:

Mary merited more than all the martyrs combined because of the purity of her intentions. St. Lawrence or any of the other martyrs were great saints and gave their lives in horrific ways to the greater glory of God but Mary gave more glory to God in a single stitch than all the martyrs combined, why? Because of the superabundance of grace in her soul.

This is also why great saints barely say a Hail Mary and God is ready and willing to give them whatever it is they desire whereas the rest of us pray and pray for years and barely get anywhere. This is the result of merit. The great saint is so perfectly conformed to the will of God that what they will and what God wills are almost perfectly aligned (and for the Blessed Virgin and Our Lord’s human will, they were perfectly aligned) whereas for most of us, we suffer selfishness and ignorance about what is right and most useful for the salvation of our soul and of the world.

This alignment of our will with God’s will is what gains merit. This can only be done through grace since grace is the life of God in the soul. Therefore, the amount of merit a person has is directly proportionate to the amount of grace that a person has in their soul.

Some people are born especially predestinate, such as Our Lady but also the great Prophets of the OT and the great saints of the NT. God always raises up saints to himself by pouring out his grace abundantly upon a person so although it is certainly not impossible for them to sin and they do indeed sin (Our Lady, of course, excepted), they quickly rise back up and continue their climb towards heaven. St. Therese talked about her “elevator” to heaven of her “Little Way” compared to those who climbed the arduous stairs to perfection. God allows everyone some crack of light which they can pursue to find heaven but for some people, it seems He only allows a little crack of darkness for them run away from Him into – that He makes it very difficult (although not impossible) for them to fall into hell. Most of us are somewhere in between. This is the part of the mystery of Predestination.

This is one of the best books on the subject of Predestination:
ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51D56PK87HL.BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01.jpg

Thank you for this complete and fascinating explanation as well as the reference. I take it that Catholics believe in a rather intricate connection between predestination and free will. I recall a Protestant minister once likening the two to railroad tracks that seem to our perception parallel at first but then apparently converge as the distance increases toward infinity.