(Being Catholic ⇒ "Being Fully Human") = Modernism?

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Geremia,
Jesus was telling human beings to be perfect. He didn’t say," you will become perfect when you enter the kingdom"; He said BE THEE perfect. That means here and now! God made humans perfect, but original sin made us imperfect,…** less than human.**

Can I ask you what being “fully human”, means to you and why you think it might be dangerous, modernist, or un-Christian?

For me, to be fully human is to be like Jesus , when He walked this earth and in heaven.
I think that is what happens when you become perfected through working on the virtues and allowing God to work in you, through the sacraments… You become fully human…like our model…the perfect man…Jesus Christ. Yes, when in heaven, we will not loose our humanity, it will be FULL, perfect. And that perfection (God’s Kingdom), can be had now in this world, through the sacraments and through faith…we can become fully human. That’s how I see it.

J

J
 
Joan has some good ideas, and of course, no good Catholic would argue with her points that Jesus Christ is the perfect human. That is part and parcel of his identification as the “new Adam.” I think it is fair to assume that means Adam in his state before the fall.

Geremia raises a valid point, though, which is that in all this talk about “being fully human,” we run the risk of pulling in profane concepts from existentialism, evolutionism, and secular humanism. This risk arises out of the linguistic tendency toward analogy: when I use terms in one context that draw on mental images from another, there is a tendency for the conceptes to melt into one, composite image.

An example: If we are having a complex business negotiation, and I say “the ball is in your court,” we both will have a tendency to think that the negotiation is a game, because I am using an expression from sports. In reality, the activities are quite distinct.
The danger Geremia sees - rightly, I believe - is that when we borrow secular terms there is a corresponding danger to adopt secular interpretations.

Whether the people who like to talk about the religious aspects of “being fully human” deliberately invite confusion is another question.

Focusing on our humanity can do violence to the clear injunction that “the Spirit gives life, the flesh profits nothing.” (John 6:33). Review St. Paul’s Epistle to the Corinthians where this idea is explicated. It is difficult to escape Geremia’s concerns in that light.

Cheers!
 
Geremia said:
Would it be considered Modernism (in the Catholic sense) to say that “being Catholic is being fully human?”
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The better question would be is the statement “being Catholic is being fully human” compatible with the Catholic faith?

Modernism is called the synthesis of all heresies because it is a philosophical system which undermines the source of dogma: it replaces a fixed and objective source (God) with a contingent and subjective one (the consciousness of the masses). So any heresy *can *come from Modernism, but that doesn’t mean every heretical utterance has its source in modernism. For example, some who argue for female ordination do so based on Modernism, but some argue that remale ordination is part of the objective and fixed deposit of faith and the Church has simply been wrong all along. The latter are wrong, but not Modernist.

So to answer your question, if the quote you provide is actually heretical, than it *could *have resulted from Modernist beliefs (any error could since nothing is fixed, which is why Modernism leads to uncertainty and agnosticism)–but it also may not. When evaluating a proposition in a vacuum you usually can’t say one way or the other if it results from modernism without evidence of the greater philosophical framework of the person who uttered it. You have to evaluate it on its own merits.
 
Joan_of_Ark said:
Can I ask you what being “fully human”, means to you and why you think it might be dangerous, modernist, or un-Christian?
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Is “being fully human” just another way of saying “being fully perfect?” How can there be a gradation of humanness? An imperfect human compared to a more perfect human is still human, no?
 
quote]
it not? It would make no sense to tell people in a homily, “Go forth and transcend humanity!”

This is true in the sense that to ‘transcend humanity’ is not for the average people. However the religious men and women who truly live their regula, the life of the truly celibate priests transcend humanity with God’s grace.

In the good old time St Rite, who kept with his abusive husband was quoted often as one who transcends humanity. Or blessed Elisabeth of Hungary after the death of her husband.
 
QUOTE:Whether the people who like to talk about the religious aspects of “being fully human” deliberately invite confusion is another question.

Focusing on our humanity can do violence to the clear injunction that “the Spirit gives life, the flesh profits nothing.” (John 6:33). Review St. Paul’s Epistle to the Corinthians where this idea is explicated. It is difficult to escape Geremia’s concerns in that light.​

warrington, we are discussing a question posed by contributor of this group who appears to be like you, and me. definitely, not a modernist. And I do not think she is trying to confuse anyone;) with her question. If she is asking is it modernist or heretical to speak of Catholics as being fully human, then the responders must define what that means in order to have a sensical discussion and to come to a conclusion. To say it will only confuse people is a cop out in my opinion.

St John wasn’t saying that our humanity profits nothing! He was saying that the Spirit gives life…not the FLESH. Human beings have flesh and a soul and Catholics have the Spirit of Life given to them as an inheritance at our baptism! So guess what? Our flesh has the Spirit of Life in it! John was simply pointing out that our flesh profits nothing in itself because only the Spirit gives life (ie everlasting life)…we need the Holy Spirit to have life! God’s Life! is that not being a full human being?

I think some people are confusing “the flesh” with humanity. Being human is being more than just being a flesh pot. God made human beings made of flesh and He made them good. In the garden, they had a relationship with God. But man turned away from Him and lost that relationship lost the spirit of God lost Life! and Jesus made is possible for us to become fully human again. He restored what we lost, that is filled us with His Holy Spirit, and made us whole again! Fully human.
 
Hello, Joan: Sorry if my statement was not clear. I wondered whether the philosophers and theologians who use those terms intend to mislead. I wasn’t referring to Geremia!!

Again, sorry for not being clear enough. :oI liked your post.
 
Aww that’s ok warrington! What I meant was that just because people use the term “fully human”, does not always mean they are trying to mislead anyone, or that they are “modernists”, I knew you didn’t mean Germania; I was only trying to make a point. I do understand that there are dissenters to the Faith, who try to confuse the sheep. I like to turn it around on them, though. I say…ok yes…fully human…what does that mean? They better explain it, because unfortunately people automatically think of “this world”… And the flesh only…but those people are already lost and confused, the real sheep know the Master’s voice…we know when someone is trying to pull “the wool” over our ears, and we know it it just doesn’t sound right. I frankly have never heard of this term until it was posted here. So, later when I looked it up I did find where some evil men of the world are using it to mislead…so, it may be used by dissenters/modernists thinking to deceive or just being deceived themselves… …but the term is not an heretical term in my opinion…it it just the opposite!

you liked my post? coming from someone of your intelligence, I am honored, thank you 🙂

J
 
I really want to point out and underline the sacredness of humanity…how holy it is to be human being made in Gods image! And to think of the potential of Christian!! How our full humanity will one day become glorified!! So, I would like to add this writing on Resurrection of the body…which I would say requires a perfected human being…a full human being, by a very conservative theologian, Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange,OP…(he was a Thomist!)

Here is the link, but I copied what I want to highlite here in this forum on this thread, below.

catholictreasury.info/books/everlasting_life/ev34.php#

This revealed truth, defined by the Church, [619] is supported by numerous Scripture texts. The Fourth Council of the Lateran gave this definition: All will arise, each with his own body which he had upon earth, to receive what each has merited, according as his works were good or bad.

The universal resurrection, then, is of faith. This resurrection requires at least that there be essential identity between the risen body and the body which the soul had while it was still in union with the body. According to certain writers [620] this suffices, because the soul, being a substantial form, gives to the body its specific life, even the actuality which we call corporeity. Nevertheless theologians hold commonly, with St. Thomas, that it must also be individually the same body, that is to say, it must contain at least a part of the matter which was formerly in that body. Otherwise how could we say that each one will rise in his own body which he had on earth? How could we say that this individual body rises from the dead? [621] St. Paul says: “For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.” [622] The Catechism of the Council of Trent speaks as follows: “Each of us will rise with the body which we had on earth, which was corrupted in the tomb, and reduced to dust.” [623] This is the uniform testimony both of Scripture and of tradition.
 
Geremia said:
Is “being fully human” just another way of saying “being fully perfect?” How can there be a gradation of humanness? An imperfect human compared to a more perfect human is still human, no?
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You are complicating the matter, Geremia. All I am saying is that man lost the “fullness”, of what God made him to be. Loss of Sanctifying grace caused a riff in his humaness. Jesus restores him to fullness…humans are made to have Gods life as part of their nature. Without Gods life, they are less than what God created them to be. That is all I am saying. I probably could have said it more simply, I guess:confused:

I don’t want to complicate this with states of perfection…that happens AFTER sanctifying grace. That happens with your work with Gods help. Sanctifying grace is from God only, There is no graduation or levels of sanctifying grace that I know of.

Now will you answer my question?

What is so heretical about telling Catholics be fully human? What connotations does this have for you?
 
I was researching something else today, and happened to come across this! It fits perfectly in this thread…thanks for an interesting thread, Geremia.

I will leave you with this quote from.
POPULORUM PROGRESSIO
  1. Self-development, however, is not left up to man’s option. Just as the whole of creation is ordered toward its Creator, so too the rational creature should of his own accord direct his life to God, the first truth and the highest good. Thus human self-fulfillment may be said to sum up our obligations.
Moreover, this harmonious integration of our human nature, carried through by personal effort and responsible activity, is destined for a higher state of perfection. United with the life-giving Christ, man’s life is newly enhanced; it acquires a transcendent humanism which surpasses its nature and bestows new fullness of life. This is the highest goal of human self-fulfillment.

Pope Paul VI.
POPULORUM PROGRESSIO
 
Joan_of_Ark said:
POPULORUM PROGRESSIO
  1. Self-development, however, is not left up to man’s option. Just as the whole of creation is ordered toward its Creator, so too the rational creature should of his own accord direct his life to God, the first truth and the highest good. Thus human self-fulfillment may be said to sum up our obligations.
Moreover, this harmonious integration of our human nature, carried through by personal effort and responsible activity, is destined for a higher state of perfection. United with the life-giving Christ, man’s life is newly enhanced; it acquires a transcendent humanism which surpasses its nature and bestows new fullness of life. This is the highest goal of human self-fulfillment.

Pope Paul VI.
POPULORUM PROGRESSIO
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Yes, he is just saying that man has a supernatural end.
 
The Second Vatican Council made the observation: “Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator” (Gaudium et Spes, 14, 1).

How can man have this effect on the elements of the material world, unless he is fully human?

Done beleaguering the point 😊
 
I was reading and meditating on prayers written by The Early Church Fathers and this one by St Ephrem the Syrian brought to mind this thread…

“Lord Jesus Christ…
Be merciful and forgive me, Your unworthy servant, if somehow I have sinned this day as a human,
or rather as an inhuman…”

It goes on, but I’ll stop there as the point has been made.
Ephrem seems to think that sin makes us less than human…

here is another…

Saint Athanasius…

"We do not worship a creature. far be the thought! For such an error belongs to heathens and Arians. But we worship the Lord of Creation, Incarnate, The Word of God.

For the flesh also is on itself a part of the created world, yet it has become God’s body. And we neither divide the body being such from The Word, and worship it by itself, nor when we wish to worship the Word, do we set Him far apart from the Flesh, but knowing…that “the Word was made flesh”,we recognize him as God also, after having Him come in the flesh."

I dunno, it kind of puts a holy perspective on what it means to be “fully human”…concha think? Ha, I keep find stuff relating to this thread when I pray and read. I found more great material upon reading " The Theology of The Body, Explained". I may share this later when I have time to type more.

Love,
J
 
A pack of wolves gather in a clearing on a sunny spring afternoon. The pack leader clears his throat, looks around at his comrades and says:

“My dearest friends, the issue before us today is: How can we be more fully lupine?”
 
Layman said:
A pack of wolves gather in a clearing on a sunny spring afternoon. The pack leader clears his throat, looks around at his comrades and says:

“My dearest friends, the issue before us today is: How can we be more fully lupine?”
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Admirable!!
 
Well, wolves are wolves. How can they become more fully wolf-like? They’re pretty wolfy already!

Same for humans.

Words are an inexact way of conveying knowledge. Timewasters, lawyers and the wicked can twist them to suit their goals.
  • Prayer;
  • Fasting;
  • Shunning sin and occasions of sin;
  • Repeating the Jesus Prayer;
  • Calling on St. Michael and The Blessed Virgin Mary;
  • Giving alms, visiting the sick, protecting widows and orphans;
  • Telling people the straight doctrines of our religion;
  • Attending Adoration;
  • Seeking indulgences;
  • Reciting the Little Office, preferably an old version;
  • Read the Douay-Rheims Bible cover to cover;
  • Going to Confession and then Communion …
… will do you much more good than fretting over the meaning of words in Church documents.
 
Although I have only scanned through the posts quickly, I haven’t seen anyone mention John Paul II. This surprises me given that when I hear the phrase “more fully human” I think immediately of John Paull II, his theology and Books.

I think its safe to say that when you hear someone harping on about becoming “more fully human” they are a modernist for sure, or al least their theology is tainted with modernism. Anyone who reads Pope John Paul II’s Books or speeches will recognise the repetitive use of this phrase and others such as rights of man, the dignity of man etc etc. There is nothing wrong with the latter statements in and of themselves, however when these phrases are used repeditively you can tell what sort of theology the person who is using them is promoting, and what sort of theological conclusions they come to.

I don’t know where John Paul II picked up this phrase “more fully human” - probably Jacques Maritain or someone like that. I don’t know any person that could be considered “not fully human”. A human is a human - period. If anyone who disagrees could provide an example of someone who is “not fully human” I would appreciate it, as I cannot undertand the logic behing this sort of humanist “theology”, if it could be called that.

As a side note I seem to remember Pope John Paul saying that “working” makes one “more fully human” - I would have to look up a reference though.
 
Layman., apparently you do not know me…I do strive to do all those things on your wonderful list…to become more fully human…
Why?
because I am not only an animal…unlike the wolf, I have a soul, and free will. I can choose darkness or light. I can choose to become more animalistic or more fully human…
Unlike the wolf, I can
Get Baptised
receive the sacraments
pray,
fast
shun occasions of sin,
go to Adoration
pray the Jesus Prayer, etc

The wolf cannot do those things…why? because he is just an animal.
because he is already what God made him to be; albeit like all Creation, mr wolf is affected by the sin of Adam. remember the Garden of Eden, where man and beast lived in harmony? No need to worry, though… when all of Creation is fully restored in Christ Jesus, Mr Wolf will become more fully wolfy.

It’s nice to have discussions like these with my brothers and sisters, and we learn stuff, and think and ponder and pray. Glad to see you stopped praying and joined in the discussion too! I appreciate your thoughtful contribution…it gave me food for thought.

…Iotaunum…I did mention JPII’s Theology of the Body. I guess I’m a “modernist” after all! Like JPII! I never though of him as a modernist either…o wait a minute… You must be a “Traditionalist” ! Now I get it!
Factions!! More disunity! we just love arguing with each other about who is right and wrong and good Catholics and bad Catholics…labeling each other, assuming the worse in each other! Assuming the worse in our own Shepherd, who the Holy Spirit gave to His Church to help in guiding us into fullness in Christ!

I don’t think that is being what God has made us to be! this is certianly not being the human beings God made us to be it’s like spitting in His face all over again. Hypocrites! We all better go to confession…get rid of those animalistic tendencies…get more human again.

Love,
J
 
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