Being catholic and mentally ill

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Thanks to all who posted. I am most especially pleased to hear from so many people with bi-polar disorder who are doing well.

Both of our sons, whom we have adopted, have birth fathers with bi-polar disorder. I actually wondered for a moment if they had the same birth father – but nope. Both of the boys are bi-racial and their racial profiles are opposite to each other. There is no way that older son’s birth dad could" pass for white", either.

I don’t know if, or how severly they may be affected by bi-polar disorder, but we will not reject them if it comes to pass that either or both develop it.

Thanks again, you give me hope. :blessyou:
 
During a time of simple but severe depression, (I think the words “nervous exhaustion” best described it) I found Jesus’s meeting with “Legion” to be particularly comforting. Here was a man who ran around a cemetery gashing himself, breaking chains when people tried to chain him. Jesus found a way to reach him - one human being to another.

I think there is biology involved, but the fact is the materialistic world that many people live in does eat away at basic mental health. God’s kingdom is there for those who can’t keep up with that world, as well as for those who can but just don’t want to any more.

“Blessed are the poor in spirit, there’s is the kingdom of God.”

peace

-Jim
 
AlanfromWichita;

I believe that there has been discussion about the physical nature of mental illness. That is to say, sometimes it runs in families. Some of it has genetic bits to it. Beyond that, I do believe that most of mine goes back to an abusive childhood. Even now, my mom has nothing good to say to me or about me. I try to limit my contact, but, at least for now, the only way I have any contact with my daughter is through her. A little over a year ago, my daughter made a comment along the lines that I “had nothing to do with her upbringing.” What a slap in the face! :banghead: :bigyikes:

BTW, you’re from Wichita? I live in Topeka. Interesting!! :yup: :clapping:
 
Dear AlanFromWitchita -

If you are referring to Dr. William Glasser and his two theories of Reality Therapy and Choice Theory. I was raised in a normal type of practising Catholic home. Went to a girls’ college (Catholic) under 3 yr. scholarship - extended to five years. I established a career for myself as a private secretary - and then at 28 years experienced my first episode of Bipolar . . . this does, I think, tend to challenge Dr. Glasser and his theory that mental Illness is environmental in many if not most cases. I am now a student again and may go on to university and study psychology. I do, however, think Wm. Glasser’s theories on reality and choice are excellent and well worth going into. Also since I have contact with many other sufferers, I know of quite a few cases of Bipolar anyway where there do not seem to be any environmental factors operative and people have fallen ill after a successfuly and happy life more or less (we all have our down times). Some of these are professional people, some of whom have returned to their professional careers but taking medication and at times availing themselves of hospitalization for short periods.
But I think whether the cause of illness is environmental or biological those who suffer mental illness should not have to suffer stigma and ostracization and especially in their Faith communities - many do and not only in Catholicism.
If you were not referring in your post to Dr. Wm. Glasser, then I apologize for my misunderstanding.
 
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brabble:
But I think whether the cause of illness is environmental or biological those who suffer mental illness should not have to suffer stigma and ostracization and especially in their Faith communities - many do and not only in Catholicism.
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:amen:
If you were not referring in your post to Dr. Wm. Glasser, then I apologize for my misunderstanding.
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I was, the dude with Reality Therapy.

Actually I’m not a big fan of Glasser, in that I have read very little of his work, but I think I mostly agree with his theory – if not about reality therapy then about the nature of mental illness.

The model I find most useful for analyzing mental illness is one I drafted the other day, taking into account everything I have learned from all sources including personal experience. In a Catholic context, I would say that mental illnesses, or at the very least affective disorders such as mine was, have their origins in original sin and represent the workings of our false self. The false self is our emotional infrastructure that is programmed by our societal upbringing, and is powered by the three energy centers that are human cravings for security/comfort, power/control, and affection/esteem. During the spiritual journey we seek the Holy Spirit, the Divine Therapist, who has the ability to renew us by dismantling our false self – a bit like shoveling out the debris from our past – and healing a lifetime of emotional wounds. It’s a bit like cleaning out viruses from a computer that has been affected by a lifetime of junk programs and ceases to function sensibly.

The best part about all this is that I believe the Holy Spirit can and will heal us through contemplation and revelation. It is not a matter of controlling the symptoms, like drugs do, or trying to suppress the problems and overpower them; it is a matter of actually healing the emotional wounds. If I hadn’t experienced it myself I would not be able to testify personally to this.

If I knew 22 years ago what I knew now, I would never have lost hope or become depressed. For that matter I believe I would not have been mentally ill. I am raising my children in such a way that they don’t come fall victim to it either. To be honest, I think mainstream Catholicism as practiced in most parishes often hurts along these lines more than it helps. That’s why I’m so adamant about helping people understand the spiritual journey beyond rituals and rhetoric.

Alan
 
Christy Beth:
BTW, you’re from Wichita? I live in Topeka. Interesting!! :yup: :clapping:
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Yes!

Home sweet home.

The abortion capital of the U.S.

Home of the infamous Dr. Tiller.

Home of the BTK strangler. (OK, so it was really Park City, a north suburb a few miles from me.)

Tornado central (two touched down outside of town earlier this week – first for this year’s storm season).

And home of my family with my sweet, wonderful, wife and six children. I moved here, single, in 1981 when I graduated from college in Terre Haute IN.

Alan
 
Dear AlanFromWichita -

Firstly, I apologize for getting Wichita spelt Witchita in my postings. Aussie ya know!

I agree with all you have said. I certainly am a different person from the one who got ill 30 years ago and like all with mental illness it has been quite a journey, sustained by Faith and a dear and very holy and most wise director who said to me “The Lord does not want you ill, I’ll tell you that, Girl! The seed of joy is within you” ( I was in hospital, depressed and expressing resignation to my lot of illness . . . also called ‘self pity’!). He died not long after that but those words rang clear as a bell to me always and these sustained my Faith and belief that I was not into a journey of some terrible darkness, an ending - but somehow, somwhere, sometime ahead I would come together - and my experience was much as you outlined - a total dismantling of the
‘me’ then . . . not suddenly but over a period. I went through six years of dire poverty and homelessness and other matters. Somewhere somehow at sometime during that journey a new me was ‘born’ . . . at first stirrings of and over a long period of years, slow growth, until now when I reflect back on the person who became ill, I seem totally different yet the same person, but I think, a better person for the experience of mental illness. More aware and grateful for the simplicities of life and certainly far more open minded and accepting and compassionate to mention a few changes.
Some doctors have said its impossible I’m Bipolar, others that it is absolutely sure that I am . . . I put it this way to my doctor “I don’t care if you call me a pineapple upside down cake, frankly, I just want to live a fulfilling and contributing life in the general community”. The words Father spoke to me kept coming back to me and I never lost Hope - not completely, although I guess sorely strained at times.
I take my medication religiously because the two times I have come off it, I have become ill again. I think it was Glasser who said that we can waste a lot of energy on cause, when we need to concentrate on ‘where to from here’. Somewhere along the line, I let the doctors have their field, which is cause (it doesn’t really interest me too much) while I concentrate on what I have and where to from here.
My own case, however, is nothing to do it seems with environment and why I began to experience rather nasty depressions some four years before I actually became ill, very ill, and was put into a psychiatric hospital is unknown as to reasons. It also went undiagnosed since I had no experience prior of depression and all I could state to my GP was that I just didn’t feel right. He declined to send me to a psychiatrist since he knew my history (no real problems) and I had no reason to be depressed.
I think really whether one is in ‘the dark night’ (a spiritual mattter) or perhaps biologically or environmentally caused psychological and perhaps pathological difficulties (matter for the doctors) is something of a mute point other than to perhaps a spiritual director and/or one’s doctor. Either dark night or psychological problems . . . one deals with them in the same way in that Faith and Hope, trust and confidence,Grace etc., they all play a very positive part in the rehabilitation or renewal, reconstruction of the personality, whatever, process. They may also be very sorely tried.
Doubtless those who have Faith etc. during a journey with mental illness have their Faith sorely tried at times, very sorely tried! At times when illness (whatever!) is pressing and most difficult, one can seem to have lost it . . . but cling . . well I don’t know what! . . . but one still clings.
My own two sons now 39yrs and 42yrs are very well adjusted men and both single, working, independant. And as much as they hate to know it, were raised on the philosophy of Bob Dylan!!! (with a few adjustments here and there!!!) . . . well Dylan more or less. I don’t want to get into a tangle over Dylan, or anything else for that matter if I can help it.

The Spirit moves where and as He will. Also, the Holy Spirit does not have our biases etc. etc. etc. Gold, after all, is where one finds it.

Send regards and may your Easter unfold joyously - Barbara
 
I just wanted to qualify something about my post and ‘taking medication religiously’ because the two times I stopped I became ill. Both times I stopped taking medication under medical supervision because there was some contention about what indeed was/is ‘wrong’ with me - both times within two months I became ill again. As I see it this does not necessarily indicate illness (as I pick and choose from what I may read, I pick and choose what doctors may tell me) . . . psychiatric medication is a very strong medication and whether my body reacted to the lack of it after years ‘on it’, or whether I am indeed ill (which I think I am) is a mute point . . . I have become ill without it. If I take it I remain well. To me that is the issue of it all - it is apparent that in order to stay well, I need medication - hence I take it. At my age (59yrs) I don’t have much time at all to waste!

I look at my illness through the eyes of Faith . . . “all things work together for those that love God”. . .hence my doctors can quibble all they like about what is wrong with me . . . I’m only interested in keeping well so I can construct a fulfilling and contributing life and if taking medication will do it - indications are it will, then I take it.

After 25 years in the ‘revolving doors’ of a psychiatric hospital (no sooner in hospital and out, then I was back in it) there is not much I won’t do (within reason of course) to maintain good health. About 5 years ago, perhaps more now, almost suddenly serious episodes ceased, meaning hospitalization ceased. I still may get unwell from time to time but I can cope out of hospital and maintaining a contributing life in the general community and I am decidedly very grateful for all mercies (as it were). My focus now with some semblence of good mental health under my belt as it were . . . what would God have me do with the rest of my life? . . .about 18 months ago I literally stumbled over a spiritual director who has no hang-ups about mental illness . . . small mercies as I said! . . . and the not so small. I am now a student and may go on to uni after 17 years of taking in ironing 6 days of the week except a week off at Christmas . . . mercies . . . and the not so small! Who knows, next week, next year, I could suddenly get ill again . . . “all things work together for those that love God” or as St. Julian of Norwich put it “all is well, all is well, and all manner of things will be well” or The Desiderata “no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should”. St. Paul put it best: “what can separate us from the love of Christ?” . . . certainly not mental illness and that’s a fact!😉
 
I’d like to say one last thing . . . those who have my heart absolutely are those who suffer from severe schizophrenia and rarely, if ever indeed, see the light of what we call reality. These people are holy and beloved of The Lord for their sufferings are a living nightmare far worse than anything I anyway have ever had to suffer. It is a nightmare alone to witness what they go thru and endure mentally and emotionally and often spiritually.

In my parish there were four of us who suffered some form of diagnosed mental illness and today only I remain in The Church. One of these a young man with schizophrenia was talking to Father after Mass and the content was full of his psychosis (disconnected from reality). I heard Father say to him: “Go on, get away and get on with it” I felt terrible sadness for Father, for I felt truly he was saying to The Lord “Go on, get away and get on with it”. His words did remind me of what Jesus said to Judas at the last supper: “Do what you have to do” or to that effect, but Father was not talking to Judas at all.

Time Magazine around 1974, headlines in an article* “In an insane world, it is the sane who will be called insane”* and in the body of the article “psychiatry is the invention of society to keep its more creative members in line”. Those quotes reflect a truth of what we tend to call reality.
 
Brabble,

You have said so much, and so much truth.

There is no joy like the joy of being healed by the Holy Spirit. Especially after enduring episodes like ours, (I’m not as far along as you are; I’m still in the poverty and starting to build up stage) I can just look around and see how the supposedly strong people are broken and don’t even realize it. It is through testing that our impurities are discovered and burned out.

Psychiatry doesn’t understand because they are too specialized. They can help keep symptoms under control.

I have an excellent audio file I will dig up for you called “On Being God” by Alan Watts, comparing the “present” day (considering he dies in 1973) attitudes toward leaders of psychiatry with medeival bishops. They (psychiatrists) are the official arbiters of what behavior is considered “normal” and afforded powers far beyond anything the police could get away with. (For example in my case I was locked up by near-minimum wage personnel without even having spoken to any doctor, then held for three days before I even met the woman who locked me up based on what non-professionals told her on the phone about my behavior, which was partly true and partly flat-out lies she told to get me out of the office.)

My intent here isn’t to put down psychiatry, but honestly they just don’t understand a whole person. The first day I met with my spiritual director a month after my hospitalization he told me why they didn’t understand. They don’t know how to treat a whole person, which has spiritual, social, and emotional components in addition to physical, sexual, and mental. Therefore, they don’t recognize a “chemical imbalance” as distinguished from a spiritual problem, and most of them do a darn sorry job of listening as they are too busy “observing” and taking notes to see what category they can put you in.

We owe a tremendous dept to psychology and psychiatry for the information they came up with. I still take my medicine and willingly because, like you, I finally realized that I should give the doctors their field. Let them help take care of the outside appearances while the Holy Spirit works on my insides. Otherwise I might deny them of their opportunity to minister to me.

Alan
 
Thank you for your post, AlanFromWichita. I think we are on the same wavelength more or less?

I read sometime ago, though regretfully did not record the source, that there is a movement in psychology and psychiatry gathering some ground in the USA to recognize the person as physical, emotional and spiritual . . . as yet certainly this has no real ground in Australia. I am very fortunate in my psychiatrist (Public Mental Health system) does recognize that my Faith is of importance and operative to me in fair or foul weather, but I have learnt over the years that best to avoid with my doctor any mention of Faith because she does not know how to handle it.
I do recognize that all forms of medicine are a gift
God has given to mankind and when one reflects back, some of these medications for example are miracles compared with what people once had to suffer who did suffer mental illness and other medication treated etc. illnesses. Since it seems (whatever the reason which I leave in God’s domain - mystery) that medication keeps me well, I take it and thank God for it.
All our legitimate and according to God’s Law advances in medical science are His Gifts to this world, including psychiatry and psychology provided they do not step outside their brief as it were. If they realize a person has some spiritual problem, then I think they should write a note to their director or parish priest, or perhps some other spiritual guide their patient may suggest, and outline any perceived problem that they feel is more spiritual than medical.
When I first got ill my then husband (marriage annulled) was told I would be a cot case for the rest of my life. I don’t think I am quite that but, and as for all sufferers of mental illness, its been a long journey indeed to the point I now see myself at, nor do I quite know how I got here other than God’s design for some mysterious reason. Far more indeed have more claim to such than I.
(cont…next post, seems I’ve too many words for one post . . . sounds like me!)
 
*** Continuation of previous post:***
Almost every sufferer can relate a quite harrowing and often entirely unjust tale. I have also noticed in my many times on a psychiatric ward that the greater majority by far of patients, sufferers, are Christian and at times struggle terribly with it. Yet, in Australia anyway and it could be due to our priest and religious shortages, we do not have chaplains visiting the ward regularly. I have always had to contact the local priest and ask someone to call.

I don’t know what is happening in other countries, but certainly here in Australia in the Prayers of The Faithful at Mass, the ill are prayed for while the mentally ill are isolated as 'those who are sick in mind '. And far too close to the putdown and stigma of ‘sick in the head’ for my liking - though I have tried to get it changed without any success at all. Mental Illness needs to be recognized as just another illness and not isolated from the ‘respectable’ illnesses if stigma etc. is ever going to be dealt with. Not only (I read it with a smile in one of the posts - there is another thread in Sprituality Forum on mental illness) that mental illness is the illness that does not bring chicken soup - neither have I ever seen in my 30 year history, flowers or get well cards on a psychiatric ward. There is still in The Church that lingering atmosphere (I’ll call it that) that to suffer mental illness is anathema as it were. This is entirely unjust, incorrect, false and displays considerable ignorance of reality, facts.

Whatever is the originating cause of mental illness and one in five will suffer it to some degree and though cause is of perhaps interest or even some assistance to psychiatry etc. the problem remains, how does this person deal with this and where can he/she head in order to refind a happy life? Cause, I think, is only helpful if it sheds light on those questions. I think many actually go through the dark night entirely without realizing that they are in the process of such a great spiritual event. Nor is it of any help at all to realize that you are, such are the sufferings. St. Teresa of Avila: “If one know what lay ahead, one would not have the courage to go on” (words to that effect, I think in the fifth or sixth mansions of her book).

Where is God, The Lord, The Holy Spirit in all this . . . never absent in any situation in Grace whatsoever, and whether one averts or not. There is no human without the spiritual and no spiritual without the human. No matter where we are at, The Lord is in it with us as long as we are in it with Him through the state of Grace. It is a matter of averting and trusting confidently - even if He seems not there . . . for ‘seems’ is operative for He is merely hidden from our human sense perceptions.

At the moment, we struggle with a need for priests and religious full stop - but one day I hope we will have priests and religious who are also psychologists and psychiatrists. These are the study of the human psyche and also any pathology and there is no human without the spiritual. Hence the whole person, including spiritual, needs be taken into account - else we create division where there is none whatsoever if we try to separate spiritual from the rest of the human psyche as takes place now and just could be why success rate is so appallingly absent.

Regards - Barbara(when I registered on this Forum it kept telling me that my chosen ID was already in use . . . so I distorted Barbara to Brabble, since it is very close to babble . . . and probably my cardinal fault!!!)
 
Today here in Australia it is Good Friday - let us gather all the sufferings, sadness, unhappiness, tragedy, trauma etc. in our world and unite them to the Passion of The Lord, together with our own.

This is something I wrote in a very dark time in my own life which I hope may be helpful perhaps to others:

I will walk quietly for The Lord has brought me to this dark valley of the cross. Here sadness lives but The Lord will carry me though it and see it with me to the end into the place of smiles and happiness. Then resurrected from this death, this sorrow, until Calvary draws nigh again. Yet always on into the light and life of smiles, the place of resurrection; therefore, I can trust The Lord, and I do, and I will and no matter the cost and as much as feelings will not let me. Then let that be the full measure and more of trust and confidence - though even these feelings of trust and confidence in this dark place I cannot know.
 
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brabble:
I think many actually go through the dark night entirely without realizing that they are in the process of such a great spiritual event. Nor is it of any help at all to realize that you are, such are the sufferings. St. Teresa of Avila: “If one know what lay ahead, one would not have the courage to go on” (words to that effect, I think in the fifth or sixth mansions of her book).
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Yes. I agree many go into the Dark Night and have no idea they are in it. For myself, I was delighted to have reassurance that what was going on was in fact a spiritual journey; that made it easier to weather the rougher times.

Also, you mentioned there were a lot of Christians in the psyche ward. In my case I was in a Catholic hospital, but that may have not mattered too much. There were Protestants of every sort. Personally I wouldn’t be surprised if quite a few Christians, trying to reconcile the conflict between the spiritual and the worldly…

Alan
 
Often in the spiritual classics, unless one reads almost between the lines, the Dark Night seems to be something taking place on a spiritual realm out of normal everyday life. I think it involves the whole person and the whole of life at that time. It pervades all. One of the writers who most appeals to me and to me anyway gets it into our contemporary language is Thomas Merton and perhaps specifically in his “Contemplative Prayer” which, though at times I found it harrowing just to read as it begins and continues into The Dark Night, does for me p(name removed by moderator)oint The Dark Night involving the whole of the person and their life. Though Merton writes specifically for monks and contemplatives, he does state at the beginning of the book that even slight application can speak to any life including lay and I found this so. And specifically towards the end of his book when he speaks of ‘dread’.
At the time my own darkness unfolded, I was ill, my marriage had collapsed, my children had been taken from me, my family and friends did not want to know me (‘incompetant mother’) and I was poverty stricken and homeless. In the midst of all this and a feeling that God just ignored me, did not want to know me or cared for me and other spiritual crises, I rang a contemplative prioress I know very well over 25 years and I said to her: “Sister, what is the Dark Night” and she replied “Your are in it, dear” and all I could reply was “Sister, I’m sorry but that’s no real comfort” and she replied “I know”
Teresa of Avila wrote that in The Dark Night there is absolutely no comfort and also “at this time God is want to send illness”. At my own time whatever in reality it was - for I leave that in God’s hands, I was certainly filled with dread. I felt God did not want to have the least thing to do with me and this would fluctuate with thinking God and Heaven do not exist - my life has been a lie. But somehow I clung . . . doubtless due to prayers for me. St. Teresa also wrote that “there is always something of The Dark Night”. Somewhere else I read that it is useless to try to bring the person in the Dark Night back into a happy relationship with God for the person is in God’s Hands alone and there is no human comfort. Was I in the throes of a just depression affecting my whole life (as depression does) with all the problems I had at that time, or was I in the Dark Night. Was I simply mentally ill. For myself, I leave all that to God who knows at every point what is best for me and effects it. Not only this after 30 years of labels (psychiatry) I am tired of them and see them as serving no function at all other than, often, to add to one’s burden or even confuse issues. In spite of that statement, I don’t think sufficient directors are aware of perhaps the dynamics indicating a dark night and just how to be with a directee through it.
This is not to denegrate your own experience or call it into question. If your director told you you were in The Dark Night then you were! . . . as for me at my own darkest time, my director had passed away and not even The Church wanted to know me. The nun of whom I spoke is a contemplative nun and her vocation was not to be my director. She had other pressing duties and concerns connected with her duties as prioress of her monastery. She was however, and still is, a friend, mentor and confidant.
Somewhere else I have read (and how I wish I had retained sources of these statements!!!) that the dark night can take on
factors that could well be diagnosed as mental illness. I can only repeat that I do not with confidence apply these things to my own experience as statemetns about it. Whatever that part of my journey was according to the correct label, I thank God it seems anyway to be over and I am in the place I am, wherever indeed it is - enough that I am in Grace and Faith is lively again . The Lord indeed returned “one hundredfold”. But it was a long slow journey into a living nightmare for me and a long slow journey out again . . . or am I out ? . . . in practise I leave all this to God . . . who knows what tomorrow may bring “today’s problems are enough for today”.
 
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tradcatmel:
IGod sometimes permits us to suffer these crosses in order to bring us closer to Him. He allows it to happen, as it is part of one carrying their own cross - I see it as purifying our selves (maybe due to the sins we have committed in the past).
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Bipolar is a brain disorder. Do you see all physical illness to be a punishment for “sins we have committed in the past”? What does the church say?
 
Dear Tiffse,

I sure can’t speak for what the Church says, but
suffering is a mystery, whether physical or
psychological. When tempted to say: Why me?
I say: Why not me? To say that God allows
suffering in my life does not imply that He causes
the suffering.

I think the key element is trust in God, though that
sometimes takes a heap of doin’ .

In the gospels, didn’t someone ask Jesus, as He
was about to cure a man: Who sinned? He or his
parents? and Jesus says: Neither, but that the
glory of God may be revealed.
[the above requires an understanding of Judaic
theology to be seen in it’s full glory.]

reen12
 
I think possibly the previous post by Tiffse is pretty much in line with what The Church has to say on the subject of suffering. But on another post somewhere I read that The Holy Father has written on the subject of suffering - when I have time, I’ll dig out the website and post it (I haven’t read it yet myself)unless someone else may know the website and post it.

Trust and confidence (perhaps more than any other time)is strengthened by suffering because it does become at times under those conditions . . . hard in the doin . . . It is almost always impossible to discern why suffering comes into our lives as to punishment for sins, or any other reason other than God is continually without fail acting in our bests interests by His Will in the positives in our life and by His Permisssive Will in the negatives. Tho we are sinners, God is always Loving and Merciful - and to harken to St. Paul’s words “all things work together for those that love God”.

I am genuinely curious by ‘judaic theology’ re Christ’s words on guilt/lack of it and the glory of God (Tiffse’s post). Can you enlarge, Tiffse?
 
Hi, brabble,

Actually, I think it was my post [reen12] that you
were reflecting on. It was my response to something
that Tiffse had written.

Let me find a link that explains Judaism’s view
on suffering clearly and succintly, and hopefully
you will see that the response of Jesus: “Neither”
was a stunning saying.

I’ll get back to you shortly,

reen12

I pray to the God of Israel, and hope that Jesus
is the Messiah.
 
Apologies re getting your name wrong, Reen12. Although I can touch type fairly quickly, the computer is still something of a mystery to me and mostly hit and miss and I am still finding out too about posting on Catholic Answers Forums. Thank you for digging up something on Judaic theology for me. I really will look forward to it.

Here is the website which Kepha1 posted on the Sprituality Forum also in Kepha1’s postings, some really great reflections on sprituality/mental illness. The thread title is “Redemptive Suffering/Mental Illness” This website apparently details a letter by The Holy Father on the subject of suffering, which I am yet to read myself:

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici -doloris_en.html
 
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