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Porknpie
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Do you believe that this is the best way to evangelize or do you believe we not to evangelize certain people?
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KathleenGee
Guest
Thanks, Steve.
Another time here where I live, I was invited to go with my employer who I have known for over 15 years to study Psalm 92. She invited her Protestant friends. They went around introducing themselves…one was a former Jehovah Witness…I know how they think as well…and when she found out I was Catholic, the look on her face…
And then we had no group study. They disbanded.
So I wonder how much time to try to convince someone who is so entrenched…it is so hurtful to me personally at times, like the story I gave. I have to admit I don’t respect people too much when they get like that, so I have to work on more forgiveness and charity.
I would go along with other posters here to disconnect, pray.
John Paul II said truth is what our soul is made of. Our soul is created by God, it is spirit, and it is made of truth and love.
When we share the truth with someone, it may be just a few words…but the truth goes down into the soul, and in God’s time of grace, it touches the soul and begins to open the person up to the truth of the Lord and His Church.
In such cases, I try to say just a few words…after reflecting in the Lord of what I perceive He is trying to teach me to say. Say it, then move on…otherwise, for me to stay in such a dialogue or relationship, is putting myself into abuse and God doesn’t want us to in such when we can easily get out of it.
Another time here where I live, I was invited to go with my employer who I have known for over 15 years to study Psalm 92. She invited her Protestant friends. They went around introducing themselves…one was a former Jehovah Witness…I know how they think as well…and when she found out I was Catholic, the look on her face…
And then we had no group study. They disbanded.
So I wonder how much time to try to convince someone who is so entrenched…it is so hurtful to me personally at times, like the story I gave. I have to admit I don’t respect people too much when they get like that, so I have to work on more forgiveness and charity.
I would go along with other posters here to disconnect, pray.
John Paul II said truth is what our soul is made of. Our soul is created by God, it is spirit, and it is made of truth and love.
When we share the truth with someone, it may be just a few words…but the truth goes down into the soul, and in God’s time of grace, it touches the soul and begins to open the person up to the truth of the Lord and His Church.
In such cases, I try to say just a few words…after reflecting in the Lord of what I perceive He is trying to teach me to say. Say it, then move on…otherwise, for me to stay in such a dialogue or relationship, is putting myself into abuse and God doesn’t want us to in such when we can easily get out of it.
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eddie_too
Guest
I agree with those who say be kind to her and avoid the topic of religion and churches.
instead, if the opportunity arises, ask her to join you in performing works of charity such as feeding the hungry, visiting the sick, clothing the naked. do so without being overtly religious.
perhaps over time she will come to see you first as a person instead of what she was taught is a treacherous and dangerous catholic and at that point religious discussion may prove fruitful.
when she starts asking questions about your faith, you will know the Holy Spirit is vigorously at work in her life.
oh yeah, add her to your daily prayer requests. that should be your first response to her attacks.
instead, if the opportunity arises, ask her to join you in performing works of charity such as feeding the hungry, visiting the sick, clothing the naked. do so without being overtly religious.
perhaps over time she will come to see you first as a person instead of what she was taught is a treacherous and dangerous catholic and at that point religious discussion may prove fruitful.
when she starts asking questions about your faith, you will know the Holy Spirit is vigorously at work in her life.
oh yeah, add her to your daily prayer requests. that should be your first response to her attacks.
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KathleenGee
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Eddie,
Very good response…
Very good response…
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humble_maid
Guest
Hi, I hope it is not to much trouble but what made you change? I don’t want to derail the OP’s thread, but if you can tell me in a few words, I would be interested.
Thanks
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Pythons
Guest
Catholics ( and other Christians who believe in the Trinity ) should be very cautious when conversing with SDA’s over religion…
…And be AWARE that SDA’s practice staunch Arianism - their goal will be to convince you of this.
…Christ, it is taught, could have sinned and lost His salvation and had that happened - God would have annihilated Him eternally.
Signs of the Time April 2, 1940
"It is **VITAL **for every Christian to know that Jesus Christ MIGHT have sinned. The Master was not beyond the clutches of temptation. The Heaven-sent Gift could have been eternally lost and the doom of humanity would have been eternally sealed. Jesus Christ knew the pull of evil. “In that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted.”
This odd and heretical teaching comes from Ellen White - who the group claims a status of “prophet” for…
…The teaching however is MUCH OLDER than Ellen White - Arius the heretic taught Christ was liable to sin.
…The Idea goes that ONLY God the Father, is God & as such could never sin - Christ however was a creature and could have!
Ellen White gloats over this hypothetical situation pre Christ’s death on the Cross…
…As the SDA quote above affirms - the teaching is indeed VITAL.
…And be AWARE that SDA’s practice staunch Arianism - their goal will be to convince you of this.
…Christ, it is taught, could have sinned and lost His salvation and had that happened - God would have annihilated Him eternally.
Signs of the Time April 2, 1940
"It is **VITAL **for every Christian to know that Jesus Christ MIGHT have sinned. The Master was not beyond the clutches of temptation. The Heaven-sent Gift could have been eternally lost and the doom of humanity would have been eternally sealed. Jesus Christ knew the pull of evil. “In that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succor them that are tempted.”
This odd and heretical teaching comes from Ellen White - who the group claims a status of “prophet” for…
…The teaching however is MUCH OLDER than Ellen White - Arius the heretic taught Christ was liable to sin.
…The Idea goes that ONLY God the Father, is God & as such could never sin - Christ however was a creature and could have!
Ellen White gloats over this hypothetical situation pre Christ’s death on the Cross…
…As the SDA quote above affirms - the teaching is indeed VITAL.
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Porknpie
Guest
Pythons -
The SDA’s are Trinitarians and have a valid Christian baptism. They DO however have some strange beliefs.
CAF Tract here for any lurkers.
We need to need Evangelize them however, teaching them the fullness of Truth as we can. A good place to start is the bible.
We agree with them that the bible is the inerrant and inspired Written Word of God.
One question is: how do they know that it is, that all the books in it are so, and that books outside of the bible have not been left out that should be included?
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Pythons
Guest
The SDA’s “affirm” belief in the Trinity…Pythons -
The SDA’s are Trinitarians and have a valid Christian baptism. They DO however have some strange beliefs.
CAF Tract here for any lurkers.
We need to need Evangelize them however, teaching them the fullness of Truth as we can. A good place to start is the bible.
We agree with them that the bible is the inerrant and inspired Written Word of God.
One question is: how do they know that it is, that all the books in it are so, and that books outside of the bible have not been left out that should be included?
…With all due respect I would appeal to:
Council of Nicea / Synod Letter to the Eqyptians:
"The bishops assembled at Nicaea, who constitute the great and holy synod, greet the church of the Alexandrians, by the grace of God holy and great, and the beloved brethren in Egypt, Libya and Pentapolis.
Since the grace of God and the most pious emperor Constantine have called us together from different provinces and cities to constitute the great and holy synod in Nicaea, it seemed absolutely necessary that the holy synod should send you a letter so that you may know what was proposed and discussed, and what was decided and enacted.
First of all the affair of the impiety and lawlessness of Arius and his followers was discussed in the presence of the most pious emperor Constantine. **It was unanimously agreed that anathemas should be pronounced against his impious opinion **and **his blasphemous terms and expressions **which he has blasphemously applied to the Son of God, ◦saying “he is from things that are not”, and “before he was begotten he was not”, and “there once was when he was not”, saying too that
by his own power the Son of God is capable of :black_medium_small_square:evil and goodness, and calling him :black_medium_small_square:a creature and a work.Against all this the holy synod pronounced anathemas, and did not allow this impious and abandoned opinion and these blasphemous words even to be heard.
If a denomination “goes on record” in affirming that it’s vital for Christians to understand that “The Son of God was capable of evil”…
…And follow that up with affirming that ‘God’ would have eternally annihilated Christ had He sinned.
…Is that not affirming, in a most explicit way, that, “The Son of God WAS capable of evil”?
Can one hold this teaching and be considered a “Trinitarian”?
…I suppose it’s possible but it would be nice to see the mechanics of how that works.
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KathleenGee
Guest
PorknPie and Pythons…these last 2 posts are good and I hope those in SDA will reflect. From what I have been told is that they may come into RCIA…but then leave.
They cannot get beyond text and go into Church.
They cannot get beyond text and go into Church.
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bitznbitez
Guest
Our priest told that to my wife. He saw it many times he said. We were SDA then slowly slid to baptist to lutheran then home to rome.
As to the previous two posts or so about Arianism. As a former SDA they are trinitarian today officially. That is what they teach today. You will still find pockets of individuals among them who hold to arian beliefs. The easiest example is to pull their 1941 hymnal. The song Holy Holy Holy they changed the words of the last line of the first verse to get rid of Trinity
God in three persons, blessed Trinity!
reads
God over all who rules eternally
Second verse edits remove saints from “all the saints adore thee” and replaces with angels, not a big deal it is still a wonderful song that way, but just showing they are making changes to make it doctrinally suitable for them at the time.
The hymnal was replaced in the mid 80s and that revision returned to the “God in three persons blessed trinity”.
The shift of SDAs from Arian to Trinitarian is discussed very succinctly in an article in their own Ministry magazine in Feb 2009 by Merlin Burt. It brackets, I believe correctly, the anti trinitarian period to the 1890s, an emergence of trinitarian thought fro 1890 to 1900, a period of conflict from 1900-1931, and finally large acceptance from 1931-1957.
Naturally pockets of resistance existed and I still ran into the occasional openly arian member in the 1980s to 1990s but they were certainly the exception.
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Porknpie
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Bitz,
Thank you for the post above. As a former SDA, what is your evangelization advice for Catholics when they are greeted at the door by a SDA doing missionary work (happens by me at least once a year)?
PnP
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bitznbitez
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Not trying to be flippant I truly do not know.
Just be nice I suppose.
I used to go door to door like that as a kid. I recall our big thing was being so proud of our knowledge of scripture and how ignorant everyone else was. Of course if you tried to impress us with your scripture knowledge it wouldn’t help I wouldn’t think. I dunno.
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Pythons
Guest
bitznbitez, thanks for sharing this! I have a question.
I have heard SDA’s over at Christian Forums maintain with velocity that Christ was “fully capable of evil”…
…& that had He sinned - ‘God’ would have forever annihilated Christ.
…So that Christ would become as if He never was & it would be eternal.
Ellen White repeatedly affirmed this to the point of claiming that Christ would have rotted in the tomb…
…Were the SDA’s affirming this teaching back when you were still with them?
…Have they repudiated these specific prophetic affirmations made by their prophet?
The reason I ask this is because I understand that Ellen White came from a Methodist background & was a believer prior to her involvement with SDA…
…I’ve asked Methodists IF this hypothetical is possible within their theology and they looked at me like I was crazy.
…I’ve found the direct opposite in fact in the Methodist Creed.
This leads me to believe Ellen would have had to reject her former beliefs on the Trinity…
…So that she could promulgate the teaching that Christ was capable of Evil.
…Do you have any information on this?
Thanks man!
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bitznbitez
Guest
I believe that the teaching Christ could have sinned is still very much common among them. Personally, and I’ll leave the theological ramifications to others, I don’t see how someone who could not sin could be tempted, and since he was tempted he could have sinned. Now yes that heads right into the nature of Christ and rapidly turns into could God have sinned since Christ is said to be God. But its the way I still tend to think when looking at the “fully human” part of “fully god and fully human”. I make no attempt to resolve it as its beyond my pay grade.
As to your underlying question, yes Ellen White changed a lot of her beliefs over time and consequently what she declares God to have told her changes a lot over time too.
As to what formed the core of early SDA thought early as in the company after 1844 and into the 1860’s and 1880s ] its a simplification to say it was “methodist” on the basis Ellen and her family were formerly methodist. Within Methodism at that time there was the start of the rise of modern pentecostalism. The shouting methodists and all the rest not having formally seperated from their host denominations to form pentecostalism yet. The early group came from this sort of group of methodists, some christian connection, and some of this and that. Added to this is their own internal original ideas. Keep in mind that, in the present day this would be the analouge of the Harold Camping supporters who despite the failed predictions would be trying to find a way for scripture to still say Harold was Right and you begin to understand the early founders situation. Within the early SDAs you would find not only arianism, you would find some tounge speaking, slain in the spirit, a few other prophetesses, and so on. This was all temporary and what emerged in the early to mid 1900s was a lot closer to fundamentalism than it was to anything. So there have been some significant shifts over time, and in the main it has tended back towards the mainstream though naturally it has a very long way to go before it arrives.
As to your underlying question, yes Ellen White changed a lot of her beliefs over time and consequently what she declares God to have told her changes a lot over time too.
As to what formed the core of early SDA thought early as in the company after 1844 and into the 1860’s and 1880s ] its a simplification to say it was “methodist” on the basis Ellen and her family were formerly methodist. Within Methodism at that time there was the start of the rise of modern pentecostalism. The shouting methodists and all the rest not having formally seperated from their host denominations to form pentecostalism yet. The early group came from this sort of group of methodists, some christian connection, and some of this and that. Added to this is their own internal original ideas. Keep in mind that, in the present day this would be the analouge of the Harold Camping supporters who despite the failed predictions would be trying to find a way for scripture to still say Harold was Right and you begin to understand the early founders situation. Within the early SDAs you would find not only arianism, you would find some tounge speaking, slain in the spirit, a few other prophetesses, and so on. This was all temporary and what emerged in the early to mid 1900s was a lot closer to fundamentalism than it was to anything. So there have been some significant shifts over time, and in the main it has tended back towards the mainstream though naturally it has a very long way to go before it arrives.
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Pythons
Guest
I’ve always understood it that because Scripture promised that Christ would not fail there would obviously be no possibility of His failure. True, Christ was tempted “of the Devil” but as Scripture so clearly tells us - to say someone was tempted can mean externally:
“A man sins when he is drawn away by his own lust”
A child molester can be tempted by a fellow pedophile to perform sexual acts on a child…
…Because this desire or lust is already IN the child molester he was tempted externally AND internally.
…If someone who isn’t a molester is offered a child they will be repulsed by the offer.
In other words it’s true that Jesus was tempted OF or BY the Devil…
…But Christ did not yearn or lust for these things.
…I.E. Christ was tempted by the Devil - Christ was not tempted within Himself because He didn’t yearn for them.
I’ve got somewhere around a 100 Scriptures to back up the teaching that Christ was eternally the Christ and that there was never, in Eternity, a possibility He might sin and loose His Salvation. Perhaps a Catholic Staff Member here can weigh in on this, especially in light of the Synodal Letter I quoted.
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KathleenGee
Guest
BitzandBites…
Thanks for explaining the transition within the SDA’s…yes we have had some on here…
And yes again…that no matter what we share about scripture…and these go for others in sects…they totally disregard…then it is a matter of wisdom when to just pull out. I think the ambient and sense…makes me think personally…that lurkers can go find someplace else to seek the truth of our faith.
I refer the most close minded to come here…and they come back wanting to argue…and invalidate…and in the meantime, they don’t reveal what kind of Christian branch or association they are in…protecting theirs while attacking ours…so I think the devil is in the details…and pray whether or not to stay…I usually let them go…don’t want to lose charity and I have lost it at some times with them, I must admit…
The Mormons are transitioning…I don’t know about the other 1800’s sects that are basically anti Catholic…
Thanks again!..so glad you are in Christ’s Church…key to find Christ and keep our eyes on Him…
Thanks for explaining the transition within the SDA’s…yes we have had some on here…
And yes again…that no matter what we share about scripture…and these go for others in sects…they totally disregard…then it is a matter of wisdom when to just pull out. I think the ambient and sense…makes me think personally…that lurkers can go find someplace else to seek the truth of our faith.
I refer the most close minded to come here…and they come back wanting to argue…and invalidate…and in the meantime, they don’t reveal what kind of Christian branch or association they are in…protecting theirs while attacking ours…so I think the devil is in the details…and pray whether or not to stay…I usually let them go…don’t want to lose charity and I have lost it at some times with them, I must admit…
The Mormons are transitioning…I don’t know about the other 1800’s sects that are basically anti Catholic…
Thanks again!..so glad you are in Christ’s Church…key to find Christ and keep our eyes on Him…
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ptisme
Guest
Here is the correct answer to your question:
Luke 6:29
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SammyV09
Guest
So, what changed your mind in the end? Just out of curiosity… Maybe it will be helpful to me
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KathleenGee
Guest
Yes…that would be interesting…and I also picked up two Jehovah Witness magazines at an ER in the hospital and no mention of any anti Catholicism.
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epan
Guest
Find out what her objections are, and address them one by one, if you can. If you can’t then move on. Also, be open to her POV. If you aren’t, then you as culpable as she is. Who knows? Maybe you will end up becoming a 7th Day Adventist.
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