Being fear-centered vs. love-centered

[ready]

I know St. Alphonsus (who was scrupulous) despaired of his salvation at one time. I believe he was able to get over it by telling himself that he would love God in this life even if in the next life he would be in hell. Perhaps St. Alphonsus’ remedy is the best way to overcome fear-centeredness. Any thoughts?

 

[peter26]

Fear and love are not polar opposites (in a Biblical sense at least). “Fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge.” (Proverbs 1:7). But fear in this context means reverence, respect and love. We fear hurting God by not keeping his commandments, and we fear hurting God because of our love for him. (Stedman, Adventures Through the Bible).

 

[Vouthon]

If you wish to overcome fear, I would read the ‘Revelations of Divine Love’ by Julian of Norwich, a 14th century English Catholic mystic

She is an authority quoted in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and Pope Benedict XVI devoted one of his catechesis talks to her life and doctrine. Here it is: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2010/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20101201_en.html

She wrote:

I saw that He is to us everything that is good and comfortable for us: He is our clothing that for love wrappeth us, claspeth us, and all encloseth us for tender love, that He may never leave us; being to us all-thing that is good, as to mine understanding.

Also in this He shewed me a little thing, the quantity of an hazel-nut, in the palm of my hand; and it was as round as a ball. I looked thereupon with eye of my understanding, and thought: What may this be? And it was answered generally thus: It is all that is made. I marvelled how it might last, for methought it might suddenly have fallen to naught for little[ness]. And I was answered in my understanding: It lasteth, and ever shall [last] for that God loveth it. And so All-thing hath the Being by the love of God.

In this Little Thing I saw three properties. The first is that God made it, the second is that God loveth it, the third, that God keepeth it. But what is to me verily the Maker, the Keeper, and the Lover, — I cannot tell; for till I am Substantially oned to Him, I may never have full rest nor very bliss: that is to say, till I be so fastened to Him, that there is right nought that is made betwixt my God and me.

…

And from the time that [the vision] was shown, I desired often to know what our Lord’s meaning was. And fifteen years and more afterward I was answered in my spiritual understanding, thus: ‘Would you know your Lord’s meaning in this thing? Know it well, love was his meaning. Who showed it to you? Love. What did he show you? Love. Why did he show it? For love. Keep yourself therein and you shall know and understand more in the same. But you shall never know nor understand any other thing, forever.’

Thus I was taught that love was our Lord’s meaning. And I saw quite clearly in this and in all, that before God made us, he loved us, which love was never slaked nor ever shall be. And in this love he has done all his work, and in this love he has made all things profitable to us. And in this love our life is everlasting. In our creation we had a beginning. But the love wherein he made us was in him with no beginning. And all this shall be seen in God without end …

And most memorably:

‘All shall be well and all shall be well and all manner of thing shall be well’.

That’s her famous phrase.

One of her strongest insights is that there is no wrath in God. In addition, sin according to her has no “reality” or “substance” in and of itself, rather God is in everything, and everything is therefore good. She believed that ultimately all would be reconciled with God.

She distinguished between a “lower nature” and a “higher nature”. The soul has two aspects which she calls substance and sensuality - generally translated as ‘essential being’ and ‘sensory being’ or as higher nature and lower nature. Both were created by God. As she explains in Chapter 37 of Showings, “…in every soul there is a godly will which never consented to sin and never shall; just as there is an animal will in our lower nature…”.

The substance is the Ground that is directed towards and lifts itself up to God at all times; as distinct from the the sensuality which is our ordinary physical and psychological life.

Our essential reality, our substance, our Ground is eternally united with God though we are not always aware of it. Our sensuality is different, indeed it is very far from always being united with God. Of the Ground/substance she writes:

“…It is a lofty understanding inwardly to see and to know that God, who is our maker, dwells in our soul, and it is a still loftier and greater understanding inwardly to see and to know that our soul, which is created, dwells in God’s substance. From this substance we are what we are, by God. I saw no difference between God and our substance, but saw it as if it were all God.” (pages 179-180)

Human beings judge by the “sensory being”, which is given to turning away from God and erring.

God, however, judges by the “essential being”, which is invisible to man and yet which is “always” united with God and never did nor can “fall” from him or “sin”.

Therefore, God’s judgement is far more merciful and lighter than the judgement of men - because he does not judge by fallen human standards which are incapable of seeing into the true core of man, his divine spirit breathed by God, his Image.

The Bible confirms this in the Book of Sirach:

“…Let us fall into the hands of the Lord,
but not into the hands of mortals;
for equal to his majesty is his mercy…”

***- Sirach 2:18 ***

It should be noted though that the Book of Proverbs of course tells us that the “Fear of the Lord” is the beginning of wisdom. The Catholic Encyclopedia explains that this gift “fills us with a sovereign respect for God.”

Our only fear should be the fear of losing God; the fear that we should lose the Beloved of our soul through attachment to material things and desires. In this light, the fear of the Lord is the fear that we are not doing enough to thank our divine Beloved for his infinite grace. We desire to nurture a loving relationship with Him because in his Presence we have life and to be far from him is to experience true pain.

It isn’t servile fear (ie the fear of getting reprimanded as in the case of a slave) but rather that of “filial” fear - the fear of offending someone that we love, of a sin against love itself, which stems from a heart that is completely self-surrendered to the Divine Will and could not bear to see or do anything contrary to God’s Divine Providence.

Fear in this sense is a “gift” of the Holy Spirit. Fear of punishment is not though.

We should always “fear” God in the sense of “awe” but never in the sense of cowering submission out of fear of punishment which reveals only that we have not “reached perfection in love” as 1 John tells us, for “perfect love casts out of fear” of punishment.

Peter is spot on when he says that the word “fear” also means “awe”. This is exactly the synonym of the word in biblical Greek. Fear of the Lord is thus awe in the presence of the living God that the Scripture talks about, not panic or stress. Charles Wesley (1707-1788) wrote: “On the day you come to fear the Lord, you shall receive your healing and the light and the glory of the Lord rising up in you.”

So the “fear” is expressed by Wesley as something positive that leads us to see the “glory” of God rising up like light from within us, dissipating all anxieties and bringing refreshment and peace to our souls.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

While on Retreat last year, the Retreat Master quoted Julian of Norwich and Pope Benedict XVI, and suggested that at the end of time, even those in hell would end up being saved.

It nearly caused a walkout of retreatants.

Jim

 

[ready]

Fear and love are not polar opposites (in a Biblical sense at least). “Fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge.” (Proverbs 1:7). But fear in this context means reverence, respect and love. We fear hurting God by not keeping his commandments, and we fear hurting God because of our love for him. (Stedman, Adventures Through the Bible).

But I am talking about fear as in despair, not fear of the Lord. Fear of the Lord is a Gift of the Holy Spirit and is very good. Despair is a sin against the virtue of Hope and is very bad.

 

[Vouthon]

While on Retreat last year, the Retreat Master quoted Julian of Norwich and Pope Benedict XVI, and suggested that at the end of time, even those in hell would end up being saved.

It nearly caused a walkout of retreatants.

Jim

Ah yes

Julian was scrupulously faithful to Catholic orthodoxy.

Her theology does not deny that hell is a very real possibility ie that man could be separated from God through sin. She had simply been personally shown that ultimately this would not be the case.

Her revelations showed her that at the end of time God would ultimately reconcile all things to himself through a great deed unknown even to angels and beyond all created imagining. It is the logical conclusion of Saint Paul’s statement that “God will be all in all” - mot “might” be but will be.

She did not deny the eternity and reality of hell, simply that in the end no one will end up in this state because of the mercy of God seeing into our deepest core and working his “great deed” at the end of time.

The Church cannot teach that all will be saved as dogma, even if it is true - and I and Julian believe it is - because some would simply live in disobedience to God. It must teach the very real possibility of losing God.

In life, the Church teaches man according to his sensuality, in order to tame it and re-orient it back to God and therefore teaches the very real reality of hell. It must do so, so as to school us to attain deification.

Nonetheless Julian believed that God would reconcile all men to himself, because he will judge them by their substance rather than their sensuality.

His ways are not our ways, to quote prophet Isaiah.

 

[ready]

Dear Vouthon,

Regarding your last post:

Origen said the same thing (that hell was not eternal) and was condemned by the Church. Jesus does not talk about the fires of hell being something that passes away, but rather he says they are eternal.

 

[Vouthon]

Dear Vouthon,

Regarding your last post:

Origen said the same thing (that hell was not eternal) and was condemned by the Church. Jesus does not talk about the fires of hell being something that passes away, but rather he says they are eternal.

Dearest Ready

Yes, very true but as I explained above Julian did not deny the eternity of hell.

She fully agreed with the Church doctrine, and the condemnation of Apokatastasis (although its disputed by scholars whether Apokatastasis was really condemned by the Fifth Ecumenical Council unequivocally or whether it was simply the form of this belief which taught that hell is not eternal, which it obviously is).

She does not say that the Church should or does teach dogmatically that no one will go to hell, but she personally believed through her revelations that no one would ultimately - and explained why.

For the record, the Church has never declared that any human being is actually in hell, and many theologians (Urs Von Balthasar) and Popes (Benedict) not to mention many cardinals (Schoenborn) believe that Christians can have a fairly reasonable hope that ultimately no one will be in the state of hell.

That doesn’t mean that hell isn’t a very real possibility - but ultimately I agree with Julian, as do many in the Catholic Church today.

BTW Origen has had a rehabilitation and is recognised as a “master of faith” as per Pope Benedict XVI (despite certain clearly heretical views ascribed to him by his followers ie pre-existence of souls, although scholars debate whether Origen himself actually taught these things).

 

[ready]

Taken from CAF New Advent Encyclopedia:

“The Church professes her faith in the eternity of the pains of hell in clear terms in the Athanasian Creed (Denz., nn. 40), in authentic doctrinal decisions (Denz, nn. 211, 410, 429, 807, 835, 915), and in countless passages of her liturgy; she never prays for the damned. Hence, beyond the possibility of doubt, the Church expressly teaches the eternity of the pains of hell as a truth of faith which no one can deny or call in question without manifest heresy.”

It is pure heresy to say that nobody ends up in hell. Christ himself talks about the sheep who will go to his right side (Heaven) and the goats who willl go to His left (Hell). Christ is our Authority and speaks only the Truith. He would not say that some will go to His right and others to His left unless he meant it!

 

[Vouthon]

Taken from CAF New Advent Encyclopedia:

“The Church professes her faith in the eternity of the pains of hell in clear terms in the Athanasian Creed (Denz., nn. 40), in authentic doctrinal decisions (Denz, nn. 211, 410, 429, 807, 835, 915), and in countless passages of her liturgy; she never prays for the damned. Hence, beyond the possibility of doubt, the Church expressly teaches the eternity of the pains of hell as a truth of faith which no one can deny or call in question without manifest heresy.”

It is pure heresy to say that nobody ends up in hell. Christ himself talks about the sheep who will go to his right side (Heaven) and the goats who willl go to His left (Hell). Christ is our Authority and speaks only the Truith. He would not say that some will go to His right and others to His left unless he meant it!

Nowhere in that New Advent passage does it explicitly state that anyone is in hell It simply states that the pains of hell are real and eternal; that hell is a reality - which I have not rebutted at all but fully attest too.

Its a grave possibility that a soul could be lost and experience eternal hell but not a certainity by any means.

Nonetheless, it would appear that my postings in this thread are causing you more distress rather than the comfort which you seek, for which I apologize sincerely.

I bid you good day and hope that someone can provide what you are looking for!

Much love brother/sister in Christ

 

[ready]

Nowhere in that New Advent passage does it explicitly state that anyone is in hell It simply states that the pains of hell are real and eternal; that hell is a reality - which I have not rebutted at all but fully attest too.

Its a grave possibility that a soul could be lost and experience eternal hell but not a certainity by any means.

Nonetheless, it would appear that my postings in this thread are causing you more distress rather than the comfort which you seek, for which I apologize sincerely.

I bid you good day and hope that someone can provide what you are looking for!

Much love brother/sister in Christ

You have misunderstood my original post and my reason for posting. I was not seeking comfort. I know that the way to be love-centered is to live solely to love our Lord and to please HIm, to love him like St. Alphonsus wanted to do. I know that to lived fear-centered is to live a servile existence fearing punishment. I was seeking responses to my post that upheld St. Alphonsus’ good thinking, that’s all.

Here is a passage from the Bible for you:

"Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting."

Jesus does NOT say that everybody is a sheep. He clearly specifies that there exists goats. There are 2 camps of people in this world. And there are a number of passages in Scriptures that talk about these 2 camps of people (the wheat and the cockle, Mary’s progeny against the devil’s progeny, the net that is filled with good things and with garbage to be cast out by the angels, etc.). The Church does not make any official judgments on who is in hell, but many saints have taught about the fewness of souls that are saved and even Our Lady of Fatima describes how souls fall into hell like snowflakes. Do you think the approved Fatima apparitions were a just sham or do we agree they were real and from Our Lady? They were real despite how some people have tried to debunk them. In The Mystical City of God by Ven. Mary of Agreda we learn that Judas went to hell along with others - and this book was approved with the highest approbation by several popes. I know we are dealing with private revelation here, but the Fatima apparitions are approved and Mary of Agreda’s work got the highest approval of several popes. I will not listen to a word about most people being saved because it goes against what many saints have said and I will not believe the crazy idea of the bad angels and people of hell being reconciled to God at the very end of time. It is heretical - hell is eternal punishment, not temporary punishment!

 

[Vouthon]

Ah I see

Apologies, you are speaking solely of the “holy indifference” of certain saints, such as Saint Ignatius of Loyola and Saint Francis Xavier as well.

Saint Catherine-of-Genoa used to say, “If God had Placed me in the Depths of Hell, I would sincerely have said, it is Good for us to be here. I would have said, it is enough for me that I am here by the Will-of Him Whom I Love, Who Loves me more-than all others do, and Who knows what is Best-for me. Sweet is the Rest, of those who Rest-in the Arms-of the Divine-Will”.

“…Oh, my God, I want to love you, not that I might gain eternal heaven nor escape eternal hell but, Lord, to love you just because you are my God. Eternal Word, Teach me true generosity. Teach me to serve you as you deserve. To give without counting the cost, To fight heedless of wounds, To labor without seeking rest, To sacrifice myself without thought of any reward Save the knowledge that I have done your will…May it please the supreme and divine Goodness to give us all abundant grace ever to know his most holy will and perfectly to fulfill it…”

***- Saint Ignatius of Loyola (1491 – 1556), Catholic mystic, Founder of the Jesuits and Doctor of the Church ***

God, I love thee, I love thee—
Not out of hope of heaven for me
Nor fearing not to love and be
In the everlasting burning.
Thou, thou, my Jesus, after me
Didst reach thine arms out dying,
For my sake sufferedst nails, and lance,
Mocked and marred countenance,
Sorrows passing number,
Sweat and care and cumber,
Yea and death, and this for me,
And thou couldst see me sinning:
Then I, why should not I love thee,
Jesu, so much in love with me?
Not for heaven’s sake;
not to be out of hell by loving thee;
Not for any gains I see;
But just the way that thou didst me
I do love and I will love thee:
What must I love thee, Lord, for then?
For being my king and God. Amen.

-St. Francis Xavier

This state is a common manifestation of the mystical path, born of complete resignation to the will of God.

The consequence of it was that, because these souls are wholly surrendered and had renounced self, they expressed - as a literary convention - a desire for God to do with them whatever he wishes, even to cast them into hell. This is because they loved God purely for Himself, rather than for what he could reward (heaven) or punish (hell).

This is a pure love of God above all.

Even if they were to spend eternity in hell, the mystics would still praise God and hell would be as heaven to them.

Saint Alphonsus Ligiouri followed on from this established tradition.

Blessed Henry Suso, Johannes Tauler and many more said much the same.

It is simply about perfect uniformity with the divine will.

The Muslim (Sufi) woman mystic Rabia Basri captured this idea nicely:

“…O God! If I worship You for fear of Hell, burn me in Hell, and if I worship You in hope of Paradise, exclude me from Paradise. But if I worship You for Your Own sake, grudge me not Your everlasting Beauty…”

- Rābiʿah al-Baṣrī (717–801 C.E.), early Sufi

This does not mean that the saints were indifferent to their salvation, far from it, it was rather a literary convention to demonstrate their pure love of God for Himself alone and not for reward or out of fear of punishment.

Meister Eckhart also described well this “surrender” to the will of God and pure love of him without hope of reward, when he said:

“…Some people want to see God with their eyes as they see a cow, and to love Him as they love their cow – for the milk and cheese and profit it brings them. This is how it is with people who love God for the sake of outward wealth or inward comfort. They do not rightly love God, when they love Him for their own advantage. Indeed, I tell you the truth, any object you have in your mind, however good, will be a barrier between you and the inmost Truth…Know that when you seek anything of your own, you will never find God, because you do not seek God purely. You are seeking something along with God, and you are acting just as if you were to make a candle out of God in order to look for something with it. Once one finds the things one is looking for, one throws the candle away. This is what you are doing…The most powerful prayer, one wellnigh omnipotent, and the worthiest work of all is the outcome of a quiet mind. The quieter it is the more powerful, the worthier, the deeper, the more telling and more perfect the prayer is. To the quiet mind all things are possible. What is a quiet mind? A quiet mind is one which nothing weighs on, nothing worries, which, free from ties and from all self-seeking, is wholly merged into the will of God and dead to its own…If the only prayer you say in your entire life is “Thank You,” that would suffice…"

- Meister Eckhart (1260-1327), Catholic mystic & Domincan priest

 

[Vouthon]

Here is a passage from the Bible for you:

"Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.

[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting."

Jesus does NOT say that everybody is a sheep. He clearly specifies that there exists goats. There are 2 camps of people in this world. And there are a number of passages in Scriptures that talk about these 2 camps of people (the wheat and the cockle, Mary’s progeny against the devil’s progeny, the net that is filled with good things and with garbage to be cast out by the angels, etc.). The Church does not make any official judgments on who is in hell, but many saints have taught about the fewness of souls that are saved and even Our Lady of Fatima describes how souls fall into hell like snowflakes. Do you think the approved Fatima apparitions were a just sham or do we agree they were real and from Our Lady? They were real despite how some people have tried to debunk them. In The Mystical City of God by Ven. Mary of Agreda we learn that Judas went to hell along with others - and this book was approved with the highest approbation by several popes. I know we are dealing with private revelation here, but the Fatima apparitions are approved and Mary of Agreda’s work got the highest approval of several popes. I will not listen to a word about most people being saved because it goes against what many saints have said and I will not believe the crazy idea of the bad angels and people of hell being reconciled to God at the very end of time. It is heretical - hell is eternal punishment, not temporary punishment!

The “sheeps and the goats” parable (if it be a parable) is simply a symbolic description of Judgement Day, its true meaning is to show us what a true Christian must act like and how to discern within ourselves whether we are living a Christ-like existence (ie feeding the hungry, nursing the sick, caring for the poor) or not (failing in these things).

Private revelations cannot be used as evidence of Church doctrine. This is because despite their value, and truth, they are subjectively influenced and shaped by the mind of the receiver.

Again, I would view them simply as teachings and warnings on what could be our fate, rather than actual pronouncements/declarations of people being in hell - which only God knows.

The following is from an EWTN article by Colin B. Donovan STL on How should such writings(private revelations) be treated today?:

“…The answer to this is two-fold.
First, as private revelations such writings must not be accorded equal or greater authenticity than the Gospels themselves. Private revelations are not given by God to satisfy curiosity or to fill in the gaps of the historical details left out of the Scriptures. Rather, they occur within the context of the prayer life of an individual. A person who has passed through the initial stage of growth in sanctity, called the Purgative Way, in which they have meditated on the Gospels, on Christ’s life, on Church teaching, and have exhausted what human language can provide them as food for prayer, enter upon an Illuminative Way in which God provides them new food for contemplation, not descriptions of Christ’s life but scenes from it. As the proverb says, a picture is worth a thousand words. The purpose is to bring the intellect to rest in God who is Truth, and to inflame the will to love God who is Good.
As St. Thomas Aquinas and St. John of the Cross make clear, however, although God can give new lights, most private revelation is “constructed” from the building materials of the memory and knowledge of the person. This means that the mystic’s own religious, cultural and educational influences help determine how the visions are presented to them. This accounts, for example, for the variety in the details of the same events among different mystics. Some details may have been supplied by God, others taken from the presuppositions of the mystic. Since God’s purpose is not to improve upon Scripture but to inflame the will with love, the source of the details are ultimately irrelevant to that purpose. In the end, the Church judges the authenticity of such writings not by these details but whether anything is contrary to faith and morals. It does not, therefore, guarantee that every detail is true, only that it is theologically safe…”

ewtn.com/expert/answers/Emmerich.htm

 

[ready]

Ah I see

Apologies, you are speaking solely of the “holy indifference” of certain saints, such as Saint Ignatius of Loyola and Saint Francis Xavier as well.

Saint Catherine-of-Genoa used to say, “If God had Placed me in the Depths of Hell, I would sincerely have said, it is Good for us to be here. I would have said, it is enough for me that I am here by the Will-of Him Whom I Love, Who Loves me more-than all others do, and Who knows what is Best-for me. Sweet is the Rest, of those who Rest-in the Arms-of the Divine-Will”.

This state is a common manifestation of the mystical path, born of complete resignation to the will of God.

The consequence of it was that, because these souls are wholly surrendered and had renounced self, they expressed - as a literary convention - a desire for God to do with them whatever he wishes, even to cast them into hell. This is because they loved God purely for Himself, rather than for what he could reward (heaven) or punish (hell).

This is a pure love of God above all.

Even if they were to spend eternity in hell, the mystics would still praise God and hell would be as heaven to them.

Saint Alphonsus Ligiouri followed on from this established tradition.

Blessed Henry Suso, Johannes Tauler and many more said much the same.

It is simply about perfect uniformity with the divine will.

The Muslim (Sufi) woman mystic Rabia Basri captured this idea nicely:

This does not mean that the saints were indifferent to their salvation, far from it, it was rather a literary convention to demonstrate their pure love of God for Himself alone and not for reward or out of fear of punishment.

Meister Eckhart also described well this “surrender” to the will of God and pure love of him without hope of reward, when he said:

Yes, St. Alphonsus had the right idea.

 

[ready]

The “sheeps and the goats” parable (if it be a parable) is simply a symbolic description of Judgement Day, its true meaning is to show us what a true Christian must act like and how to discern within ourselves whether we are living a Christ-like existence (ie feeding the hungry, nursing the sick, caring for the poor) or not (failing in these things).

Private revelations cannot be used as evidence of Church doctrine. This is because despite their value, and truth, they are subjectively influenced and shaped by the mind of the receiver.

Again, I would view them simply as teachings and warnings on what could be our fate, rather than actual pronouncements/declarations of people being in hell - which only God knows.

The following is from an EWTN article by Colin B. Donovan STL on How should such writings(private revelations) be treated today?:

Yes, but I do not dismiss approved private revelation as nonsensical fantasy to be disregarded, as some people might like to do. The Church does not obligate us to believe in any given private revelation, but approved private revelation always complements the Sacred Scriptures and the teaching of the Church and can not contradict it. Our Lady told Lucia that many souls go to hell because they do not have people to pray and offer sacrifices for them. She said “many” people, which means many **do go *to hell (note: she did not say many people possibly go to hell. Our Lady showed the three children of Fatima a vision of hell where she said souls go - she did not say "where souls could possibly *go." Plus, our Lady said the Ven. Mary of Agreda that certain souls are in hell (and I believe she even spoke about the fewness of souls that are saved) … and I do not dismiss this private revelation as being nonsensical or false - it has the highest approval of several popes. And Jesus Himseld has told us: “Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.” When Jesus uses the word “many” he is not just speaking of possibilities - he is speaking of a reality that will take place: he will tell many to depart from him as the workers of iniquity that they are. Jesus is not speaking a parable here - he is speaking about what will actually happen to many souls. And when Jesus says: "few enter in the narrow gate and many enter the broad way that leads to perdition he is not speaking a parable, but a reaity. When he says in Matthew 7:13: “Enter ye in at the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat” he is not saying that many enter the narrow gate - he says the opposite: “and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there are who go in thereat.” Christ Himself tells us that few souls enter the narrow gate while many souls enter the broad way that leadest to destruction. Clearly, many souls are in danger of going to hell as hell is where destruction leads. Thus I will not be fooled into thinking that most souls are in good standing before the Lord like some people might like to think. What they think goes against the words of Christ found in the Bible (Mt. 7:13). And just because the Church can not formerly pronounce that any given soul is in hell, this certainy does not mean that nobody is in hell. People have come back from the dead from the fires of hell to tell their friends and loved ones not to pray for them because they are damned. These pious stories are handed down in pious Catholic books which are not condemned at all by the Church. These stories are not to be taken lightly by us either, even though they are not public revelation.

 

[TrueLight]

Am I reading here that some believe that no one will eventually be in hell? That is not Catholic teaching.

For the record, the Church has never declared that any human being is actually in hell, and many theologians (Urs Von Balthasar) and Popes (Benedict) not to mention many cardinals (Schoenborn) believe that Christians can have a fairly reasonable hope that ultimately no one will be in the state of hell.

Where does Pope Benedict say this?

I’m not going to derail this thread.

 

[Vouthon]

Am I reading here that some believe that no one will eventually be in hell? That is not Catholic teaching.

Where does Pope Benedict say this?

I’m not going to derail this thread.

I’ll PM you later on today or tommorrow sister TrueLight on this, I’ve derailed brother/sister Ready’s thread already because I misunderstood what he/she desired, so I don’t want to add insult to injury

I did rectify my error though above with that later post which addressed corectly his/her initial purpose in creating this thread

 

[ready]

and many theologians (Urs Von Balthasar) and Popes (Benedict) not to mention many cardinals (Schoenborn) believe that Christians can have a fairly reasonable hope that ultimately no one will be in the state of hell.

I, too, would like to know where you got this information from. I find it scandalous and very disedifying.

EDIT:

BTW, I do not doubt that Von Balthasar, Benedict and Schoenborn said this.

 

[ready]

For the record, the Church has never declared that any human being is actually in hell, and many theologians (Urs Von Balthasar) and Popes (Benedict) not to mention many cardinals (Schoenborn) believe that Christians can have a fairly reasonable hope that ultimately no one will be in the state of hell.

I ask you to please tell me your sources. What you stated may have been said by the three people you mentioned (maybe it wasn’t), but I know it would be delusional for me to “have a fairly reasonable hope that ultimately no one will be in a state of hell.” Why? One reaon is that Jesus Himself in the Bible said that MANY who say: “Lord, Lord …” will be told to depart from Him as workers of iniquity. (I quoted Jesus’ very Words earlier in this thread if you wish to refer back to it).

I mean this as no disrespect to you, but I’m afraid if I was looking for comfort from you (like you thought I was) I would not find it. I’m afraid much of what you have presented to me on this thread is heretical. It would be delusional for me to think that the punishments of hell are not eternal and delusional for me to believe that there is a fairly reasonable hope that untimately no one will be in the state of hell. I will pray that nobody reading this thread gets sucked into heretical thinking.

 

[nuntym]

+JMJ+

Going back on topic, I had just read Vouthon’s post quoting St. Julian of Norwich’s writings, and I was completely struck by the quote from the saint that says (and here I quote from here, which as you can see is quite different from what Vouthon quoted):

**For in every soul that shall be saved is a Godly Will that never assented to sin, nor ever shall. Right as there is a beastly will in the lower part that may will no good, right so there is a Godly Will in the higher part, which will is so good that it may never will evil, but ever good. And therefore we are that which He loveth and endlessly we do that which Him pleaseth. **

Now this reminded me of a few things. First about the theological meaning of heart. The heart is where the will (not the passions, as modern people think) reside.

[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 15:18-20[/BIBLEDRB]

According to Jesus, sins come from the heart. But since it is only the will that can sin, it therefore is obvious that the will resides in the heart.

But if there are two wills, one “Godly” and one “evil”, then it follows that the heart is a battleground between the good will and the bad will.

This seems to be what St. Paul was relating in Romans chapter 7.

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 7:14-25[/BIBLEDRB]

Note what St. Paul said: [BIBLEDRB]Romans 7:22[/BIBLEDRB]

Where did this “inward man” come from? From Baptism.

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 6:3-6[/BIBLEDRB]

I think that’s why St. Julian said, “For in every soul that shall be saved…” and not just “For every soul.”

But what could this “Godly will”, this “new man”, be but that will that loves? And I think here is where I find the answer for the OP’s question, for St. John said

[BIBLEDRB]1 John 4:18[/BIBLEDRB]

If we take into account what I have presented from St. Julian, St. Paul, and St. John’s writings so far, then there is one possible answer for the OP:

Because the old man, the evil will that has no capacity to love, will always be with us until we die, fear will never leave us until we die. BUT, by virtue of our baptism, since we also have this Godly will, this new man that has never consented to sin and thus has never stopped loving God, then there is something in us that never has and never will have fear. It is this new man that we must always give free reign in our heart so that, even though it will never leave us, fear will nevertheless never be the center of our lives, but instead love.