Being from a particular church (religion) does not save?

  • Thread starter Thread starter chero23
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

chero23

Guest
I hear people here and in life say “Well a church wont save you it’s what the person does”. I understand that the Catholic Church teaches that you don’t have to be Catholic to be saved, that what matters is that your a good person in action and heart.

But this is my question. Your in Bible study group, your Catholic and your friend is from X church. They teach that abortion is ok, as you go through the Bible and show him, hey here are these Bible verses that 1 should not kill innocent people, and that a babu in the womb is somebody already. Can that person be saved still even though you showed them that what they teach at their Church goes against the Bible?

I think that if somebody from another Church or religion, sees that, Jesus is God, or that the Holy Spirit is the 3rd person of the Trinity, or that a person is not saved by faith alone, or that God is truly present in the Eucharist just to name a few things. If a person sees that what they are being taught is wrong, they have the Biblical proof to show that what they teach is not right, are they still “saved” (I hope that’s the correct word). I ask bc now they know the truth and are not willing to take it.
 
If they die in a state of grace, they are “saved” - will go to heaven. Willingly and knowingly denying the truth about God is one way to lose that state of grace, but just because a person has heard it and is not convinced does not mean that they willingly and knowingly denied it.
 
The Catholic Church does not teach that one only must be a “good” person to be saved. A man could never sin and attain to perfect natural goodness, and that would still not suffice for salvation (“Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God”, John 3:5). On the contrary, the Catholic Church teaches that one must be a member of the Catholic Church to be saved, since the Catholic Church is the only means of salvation.

“[The holy Roman church, founded on the words of our Lord and Saviour] firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church.”
ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM#5

This does not necessarily mean that God could not save someone outside the visible communion of the Church. The Catholic Encyclopedia article on the “Church” talks about this possibility.

"The doctrine is summed up in the phrase, Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. This saying has been the occasion of so many objections that some consideration of its meaning seems desirable. It certainly does not mean that none can be saved except those who are in visible communion with the Church. The Catholic Church has ever taught that nothing else is needed to obtain justification than an act of perfect charity and of contrition. Whoever, under the impulse of actual grace, elicits these acts receives immediately the gift of sanctifying grace, and is numbered among the children of God. Should he die in these dispositions, he will assuredly attain heaven. It is true such acts could not possibly be elicited by one who was aware that God has commanded all to join the Church, and who nevertheless should willfully remain outside her fold. For love of God carries with it the practical desire to fulfill His commandments. But of those who die without visible communion with the Church, not all are guilty of willful disobedience to God’s commands. Many are kept from the Church by ignorance. Such may be the case of numbers among those who have been brought up in heresy. To others the external means of grace may be unattainable. Thus an excommunicated person may have no opportunity of seeking reconciliation at the last, and yet may repair his faults by inward acts of contrition and charity.

It should be observed that those who are thus saved are not entirely outside the pale of the Church. The will to fulfill all God’s commandments is, and must be, present in all of them. Such a wish implicitly includes the desire for incorporation with the visible Church: for this, though they know it not, has been commanded by God. They thus belong to the Church by desire (voto). Moreover, there is a true sense in which they may be said to be saved through the Church. In the order of Divine Providence, salvation is given to man in the Church: membership in the Church Triumphant is given through membership in the Church Militant. Sanctifying grace, the title to salvation, is peculiarly the grace of those who are united to Christ in the Church: it is the birthright of the children of God. The primary purpose of those actual graces which God bestows upon those outside the Church is to draw them within the fold. Thus, even in the case in which God saves men apart from the Church, He does so through the Church’s graces. They are joined to the Church in spiritual communion, though not in visible and external communion. In the expression of theologians, they belong to the soul of the Church, though not to its body. Yet the possibility of salvation apart from visible communion with the Church must not blind us to the loss suffered by those who are thus situated. They are cut off from the sacraments God has given as the support of the soul. In the ordinary channels of grace, which are ever open to the faithful Catholic, they cannot participate. Countless means of sanctification which the Church offers are denied to them. It is often urged that this is a stern and narrow doctrine. The reply to this objection is that the doctrine is stern, but only in the sense in which sternness is inseparable from love. It is the same sternness which we find in Christ’s words, when he said: “If you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sin” (John 8:24). The Church is animated with the spirit of Christ; she is filled with the same love for souls, the same desire for their salvation. Since, then, she knows that the way of salvation is through union with her, that in her and in her alone are stored the benefits of the Passion, she must needs be uncompromising and even stern in the assertion of her claims. To fail here would be to fail in the duty entrusted to her by her Lord. Even where the message is unwelcome, she must deliver it."
newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm
 
If they die in a state of grace, they are “saved” - will go to heaven. Willingly and knowingly denying the truth about God is one way to lose that state of grace, but just because a person has heard it and is not convinced does not mean that they willingly and knowingly denied it.
But you see I don’t think that can always be the case. I ask bc of this. My gf belongs to a church that accepts contraception, allows abortion, believes the Eucharist is a symbol, that the Virgin Mary is asleep, and had more Kids, just to name a few things. We have read the Bible together we just finished Jeremiah. And we have written stuff down where it states that one should not kill, and that 1 should defend the innocent. That’s of course seen as babies in the womb. She knows that what her Church teaches is wrong but, like I told her, the Bible says to not support those who kill innocent ppl. That’s why I think that people like my gf, and other denominations that accept abortion, contraception, homosexuality, if they see that what their Church teaches is against the Bible and for them to stay in a Church like that after seeing the Truth in the Bible but basically ignoring it, is a grave sin
 
I hear people here and in life say “Well a church wont save you it’s what the person does”.
It is not either/or, it is both/and.
I understand that the Catholic Church teaches that you don’t have to be Catholic to be saved, that what matters is that your a good person in action and heart.
Well, no, that is not exactly what the Church actually teaches.
But this is my question. Your in Bible study group, your Catholic and your friend is from X church. They teach that abortion is ok, as you go through the Bible and show him, hey here are these Bible verses that 1 should not kill innocent people, and that a babu in the womb is somebody already. Can that person be saved still even though you showed them that what they teach at their Church goes against the Bible?
Maybe. Firstly because they have the whole of their life to repent, secondly because ignorance can run deep. We cannot know what is in their mind or heart-- God can. I would suggest that invincible ignorance is a pretty high hurdle, for the reasons you outline.
I think that if somebody from another Church or religion, sees that, Jesus is God, or that the Holy Spirit is the 3rd person of the Trinity, or that a person is not saved by faith alone, or that God is truly present in the Eucharist just to name a few things. If a person sees that what they are being taught is wrong, they have the Biblical proof to show that what they teach is not right, are they still “saved” (I hope that’s the correct word). I ask bc now they know the truth and are not willing to take it.
What the Church actuallly teaches:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. **Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.**336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
 
I hear people here and in life say “Well a church wont save you it’s what the person does”. I understand that the Catholic Church teaches that you don’t have to be Catholic to be saved, that what matters is that your a good person in action and heart.
This is not the teaching of the Church (it’s heresy). The doctrine, extra ecclesiam nulla salus (outside the Church, there is no salvation), is still the teaching of the Church.
But this is my question. Your in Bible study group, your Catholic and your friend is from X church. They teach that abortion is ok, as you go through the Bible and show him, hey here are these Bible verses that 1 should not kill innocent people, and that a babu in the womb is somebody already. Can that person be saved still even though you showed them that what they teach at their Church goes against the Bible?
If a person seeks the Lord with all their heart, they will find Him. This is taught in scripture. Jesus is not an abstract idea. Jesus is a person- objectively God and objectively man and teaching objective truth. If a statement is true, then the opposite statement must be false. (wow…just had a flashback to learning theorems in high school geometry…who’d have thought they’d come in handy someday?)
I think that if somebody from another Church or religion, sees that, Jesus is God, or that the Holy Spirit is the 3rd person of the Trinity, or that a person is not saved by faith alone, or that God is truly present in the Eucharist just to name a few things. If a person sees that what they are being taught is wrong, they have the Biblical proof to show that what they teach is not right, are they still “saved” (I hope that’s the correct word). I ask bc now they know the truth and are not willing to take it.
If someone, fully knowing the truth, willfully rejects the truth of Christ, and of His Church, and God is not one to force Himself on us, how can a person be saved who does not want to be? If a person sincerely seeks God, but for whatever reason doesn’t make it to the point where they are formally Catholic, we hope that God, in His mercy will somehow call to Him in death those who earnestly searched for Him in life. It is written in scripture that those who search for God with all their hearts will surely find Him.
 
It was given to the Apostles to hold bound or to release sins.

The apostles passed that on to their Heirs, the bishops of the Church.

The heirs of the Apostles have decreed that sufficient desire to do God’s will, coupled with a lack of understanding of the Church’s role in salvation, is sufficient not to be an automatic condemnation for those not united to the visible church.

Likewise, it has been revealed by God to and through them that some martyrs who were not yet baptized were taken up to heaven despite not having been baptized with water before their death.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top