Being militant while being a good Christian

[Robert_Caritas]

Hello All,

Several months ago I converted back to Catholicism, and this was a huge moral awakening. It pulled me out of the soup that is relativistic doubt, and gave me drive to fight for justice. But, I made sure that this justice started in my daily life, and be anchored in prayer. For me, staying on the past towards sainthood is more important than being an activist.

In the Imitation of Christ it says (I’m translating from my French copy): “Start rather by holding yourself in peace, and then you will be able to give it to others. ] The passionate man makes even what is good evil, and easily believes in evil.” The great Orthodox saint Serpahim of Sarov also said: “Acquire a peaceful spirit, and around you thousands will be saved.”

The problem is that when topics such as abortion, or the morality of the Church are approached, I tend to get very passionate. Maybe I just feel attacked deep in my beliefs. I live in an ultra-liberal environment, where the standard view is to think that Christianity is stupid (but that it has to be respected because some hold it dear). So whenever I speak from a traditional stance, I know that almost everybody around me thinks the opposite, and will probably attack me on this issue. 

So I don't know if I should avoid activist topics and situations altogether, and just try to be the best person I can be, and so teach by example. I'm afraid that I might be causing more harm than good when I take up an argument passionately.

Anyway, I pray for God to guide me, but I would be happy to have your points of view as well. I know that following the footsteps of Christ is the most important thing. Love and humility heal much more than another person shouting. Is there just a time for each of them? Can we be loving in an argument, without wrath and false pride? How can we respond to moral attacks by turning the other cheek in humility -- but standing firm in our beliefs?

 Kindest regards,

  Robert

 

[ProdglArchitect]

I would say that you should not actively put yourself in a position where you will fall prey to the sin of wrath. That said, if you can control your anger and engage in logical discussion with them I would definitely suggest you not try to avoid the topics. If they come up state the Truth, and defend it rationally and intelligently. Do not lose your cool, and never give any ground. The Truth is the truth, their doubt has no affect on it, nor does their belief that you are somehow less intelligent for believing in It. If you feel ridiculed, offer it up to God for the opening of their hearts.

Just keep in mind that if they never hear the Truth, they can never live in it.

 

[Bill_7154]

Hello All,

Several months ago I converted back to Catholicism, and this was a huge moral awakening…needed to cut some of your post so I could make mine fit while quoting you still… The problem is that when topics such as abortion, or the morality of the Church are approached, I tend to get very passionate. Maybe I just feel attacked deep in my beliefs. I live in an ultra-liberal environment, where the standard view is to think that Christianity is stupid (but that it has to be respected because some hold it dear). So whenever I speak from a traditional stance, I know that almost everybody around me thinks the opposite, and will probably attack me on this issue.

So I don't know if I should avoid activist topics and situations altogether, and just try to be the best person I can be, and so teach by example. I'm afraid that I might be causing more harm than good when I take up an argument passionately.

Anyway, I pray for God to guide me, 
  Robert

I, like you, converted back to being Catholic I, also like you, live in a very, very liberal state (MA- prob the most lib in the country). At this point in my life I am not invested in ‘fighting’ for justice, I am trying to keep my head above water and provide for my family the best I can. This takes most all my energy.

I know that Catholics are looked down on in general in this state probably more than most. Since I work all day and stay home all night, I don’t get into many situations where conversations about abortion or whatever would come up. And all of our friends (I am married) are pretty much all church going Christians, so the social events I am involved in pretty much are filled with people who are close to God. I can only think of one who is not, he says he doesn’t believe in religion and thinks it’s a scam to get people’s money. I haven’t had the occasion to have any discussions wiht him since my recent conversion, If it happens I think my priority will be to avoid making a scene, or contributing to one. I pray often now and this helps me. I think, as long as it won’t create disruption, I will feel comfortable sharing this with him and how I am happier and my life is better now that I am back to being an active practicing Catholic who strives to follow the teachings of Jesus Christ.

But if I happen to be in a coffee shop and hear people avocating abortion I think I will mind my own business rather than interupt their conversation and interject my opinion. Now, if someone is being loud and abrasive, WANTING others to hear what they say…I will take that as an invitation to interject my positions.

In general I guess my philosophy is to try to do good without making the other peson with the sinful belief dig in their heels more and be MORE likely to be invested in their sinful belief as a result of my conversation with them. I think this takes practice in reading people’s body language and tone of voice, where you can get a sense of when people start to change from neutral/open minded to irritated/annoyed/whatever…

At that point I think it prudent of me to ask myself… am I engaging in this conversation to try to help this other person convert more towards my way of thinking… or am I engaging in this conversation to make myself feel good…to get personal satisfaction and feel justified. Because if it’s the latter IMO that is a mistake. I might feel better, but the other person might become even more invested in whatever sin we were discussing.
This is why I think those types of conversations maybe should have a degree of delecate balance. It’s easy to just spout off what one believes and why they are correct. But if this has a negative impact on the audience, what’s the point?

I would perfer to use a more subtle approach, in particular if I know that I will have regular contact with the person. That way I will have several opportunities to pursuade them to my way of thinking. So for myself, being mindful of what my true motives are (speaking to a sinner with the love of God in my heart, and doing so in such a way so that they pay attention) or (speaking with a sinner with the belief in my mind that I know what he does is sinful and trying to argue my way of seeing things into him) I think the former, for me, is the way to go.

What is of greater value, a man giving a speech to 1,000 people or 100,000 people about the virtues of being Catholic and none of them changing to be less sinful or converting to being Catholic… or…
… speaking to one person about nature, God, the universe, good and bad, the Catholic Faith and how God WANTS sinners to come to him and this makes him HAPPY…and then this man goes to Church and Confession and reconsiliation and starts to change the way they have been living so they sin less?

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

I would say that you should not actively put yourself in a position where you will fall prey to the sin of wrath. That said, *if you can control your anger *and engage in logical discussion with them I would definitely suggest you not try to avoid the topics. If they come up state the Truth, and defend it rationally and intelligently. Do not lose your cool, and never give any ground. The Truth is the truth, their doubt has no affect on it, nor does their belief that you are somehow less intelligent for believing in It. If you feel ridiculed, offer it up to God for the opening of their hearts.

Just keep in mind that if they never hear the Truth, they can never live in it.

Great post and excellent points.
God Bless,
Bill

 

[JerryZ]

Great post and excellent points.
God Bless,
Bill

I think that in the end we should all follow St. Francis advice, to preach the Gospel everyday and sometimes when absolutely necessary we could even use some words.

Let’s pray we get the strenght to follow his advice.

 

[Bill_7154]

I think that in the end we should all follow St. Francis advice, to preach the Gospel everyday and sometimes when absolutely necessary we could even use some words.

Let’s pray we get the strenght to follow his advice.

HiJerryZ,

I have so much to learn as someone who just returned to the Catholic Faith. I do not know anything about the teachings of St. Francis. I have my hands full with praying and trying my best to ‘work’ to have my prayers materialize (which center around getting all negativity out of me and have it replaced with goodness that Jesus would have me filled with) as well as prayers thanking God for answering my prayers in lessening my suffering, giving me hope, etc.

I do my best to follow the teachings of Jesus, as I understand them to be (even when away from the Church I always had faith (with moments of doubt) and prayed and read the bible. I didn’t go to Church or partake in any of the sacrements though. 5 months ago I went to confession for the first time in 17 years (a lot of my sinning stopped 5 years or so before that- lots of sexual sins- but I was still a regular sinner and did not repent my sins until I went to confession recently, and then since then as well.

So I’m sure I have a lot to learn from St. Francis as well as other saints, the Virgin Mary, and from other places as well.

The best part is that I am feeling internal relief from intense anxiety I used to have so quickly after going to confession and beginning to pray often. I never thought it could decrease as quickly or as much as it did as it has become a part of me- a great burden, but one I had come to accept as just something that would always be with me. Now I have hope that through continued prayer, going to Church, confession and reconciliation, partaking in the body of Christ…I can make positive changes in my life rather than mearly existing…as I was doing prior to coming back to the Church.

And I’m glad I have found this website, I used to post on other sites that were not religious as I sort of have a mild social phobia so find it easier to interact with others over the internet. And I feel that doing so here is much better than some random secular websites.

Thanks and God Bless,
Bill

 

[Robert_Caritas]

Thanks for the responses, I’m thinking about them.

I don’t get very wrathful (though maybe a little…), but I definitely feel that I might be pushing too hard sometimes, and making people shut down.

I live on campus that is a regular member of the 10 least religious colleges list. We have a very large LGBT community, and ultra-liberal positions are considered the norm. Many people are shocked when I so much as bring up pro-life arguments. So it’s a delicate debating situation.

I have to try to keep my cool. It’s hard to do so when people look at you like some kind of monster as you’re speaking… But it seems like the right thing.

 

[Bill_7154]

Thanks for the responses, I’m thinking about them.

I don’t get very wrathful (though maybe a little…), but I definitely feel that I might be pushing too hard sometimes, and making people shut down.

I live on campus that is a regular member of the 10 least religious colleges list. We have a very large LGBT community, and ultra-liberal positions are considered the norm. Many people are shocked when I so much as bring up pro-life arguments. So it’s a delicate debating situation.

I have to try to keep my cool. It’s hard to do so when people look at you like some kind of monster as you’re speaking… But it seems like the right thing.

Gee, you just reminded me how different it was in college. I went to college in the late 80’s and they were pushing a liberal agenda back then! I can’t even immagine what it’s like now. The impression I got was that professors all were pretty much liberal so for the most part gave their slanted world view perspective when teaching most subjects (math wouldn’t apply). I only had like 1 professor (very old, very wise, taught philosophy) that had the cajones to speak his mind on issues, I remember once he raised abortion for discussion. He was very smart, that is the reason no one wanted to challenge him. He was asking "if it’s not human, what is it? "Is it dead? If it’s not dead, it must be alive, no? And ended by saying "it’s not a cockroach you know.

But I feel bad for college students today (fortunately my nephew is going to a Jesuit College so won’t be subjected to tons of lib nonsense. But for most of you…boy…it’s gotta be tough. Don’t want to **** off the teacher and get a bad grade even if you write great papers…if they are contrary to his/her point of view. It would be nice to think of professors in college being above such petty things, I don’t buy it.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Semper_Zelare]

I think that in the end we should all follow St. Francis advice, to preach the Gospel everyday and sometimes when absolutely necessary we could even use some words.

Let’s pray we get the strenght to follow his advice.

sometimes when absolutely necessary we could even

Wow, I’ve never heard that misquotation with FOUR different qualifiers before! In fact, I normally only hear it with 1 “when necessary use words”, you’ve added “sometimes”, “absolutely”, and “could even”.

St. Francis never said that. St. Francis preached some pretty ballin’ sermons in his day, that nowadays would probably be condemned by that very quote.

Hearing that quote with 4 qualifiers really makes me see what an agenda it has: to stifle preaching. What’s so bad about preaching? You know, some people have the gift of preaching. That is the gift which the Holy Spirit has given to them. And this is how the Church treats them… not as “one part amongst many”… but as disobeying St. Francis.

Well, St. Francis never said that. I should know, he’s my patron Saint. I can’t wait for the day when this myth gets dispelled.

 

[Robert_Caritas]

What’s the real quote?

 

[Graubo3]

What’s the real quote?

The quote “attributed” to St. Francis of Assisi is: Preach the Gospel always, use words when necessary.

I don’t have enough time to devote on the validity of that quote nor do I frankly care. Welcome back to the Faith, the Holy Spirit will guide you in action and in word.

Peace, Graubo

 

[Graubo3]

Wow, I’ve never heard that misquotation…

How can it be a misquotation when you say it is not a quote even to begin with?

 

[Robert_Caritas]

The quote “attributed” to St. Francis of Assisi is: Preach the Gospel always, use words when necessary.

I like this version better in any case.

Welcome back to the Faith, the Holy Spirit will guide you in action and in word.

Thank you!

 

[Robert_Caritas]

How can it be a misquotation when you say it is not a quote even to begin with?

The meaning is slightly different between both “misquotations.” The original insists that we should follow the footsteps of Christ in all of our actions – and that words should only be used when actions cannot (like in evangelization or conversation or debate).

This paraphrase “to preach the Gospel everyday and sometimes when absolutely necessary we could even use some words” still holds similar advice (it certainly spoke to me when I read it – and I thank JerryZ for posting it), but portrays speaking the Gospel with a slightly negative connotation.

As Semper Zelare put, if someone has the gift of preaching, guided by Spirit, he should use it!

 

[Semper_Zelare]

The meaning is slightly different between both “misquotations.” The original insists that we should follow the footsteps of Christ in all of our actions – and that words should only be used when actions cannot (like in evangelization or conversation or debate).

This paraphrase “to preach the Gospel everyday and sometimes when absolutely necessary we could even use some words” still holds similar advice (it certainly spoke to me when I read it – and I thank JerryZ for posting it), but portrays speaking the Gospel with a slightly negative connotation.

As Semper Zelare put, if someone has the gift of preaching, guided by Spirit, he should use it!

There’s nothing wrong with the message of that quote. I just think it’s wrong that it’s used SOOOO often. I mean, it’s a good message “practice what you preach, don’t just preach. Your example is very important”. But, I think it’s used soooo often, that a lot of Catholics might think that using words to spread the Gospel is almost wrong.

Anyways… the actual quote, or at least the closest St. Francis gets to this is from his Rule of Life, in Chapter XII: “No brother should preach contrary to the form and regulations of the holy Church nor unless he has been permitted by his minister . . . All the Friars . . . should preach by their deeds”.

So, the brothers would still preach. This is almost a warning not to be like the Pharisees: preach, but make sure it is mirrored by your life as well. Of course, St. Francis would often practice itinerant preaching. Sometimes, he would travel to up to 5 towns in a day, and preach in all of them. So, I hope people don’t form their idea of who St. Francis was off this quote, as opposed to reading his life story and such.

Oh, and Welcome back to the Catholic Church!!!

 

[Bill_7154]

You know, some people have the gift of preaching. That is the gift which the Holy Spirit has given to them. And this is how the Church treats them… not as “one part amongst many”… but as disobeying St. Francis.

First of all let me qualify my post by saying I"m newly back to the Catholic Church, and I know just about nothing of who St. Francis was or what he taught, etc.

My question to you is: What do you think goes into making someone a great preacher? And more importantly, how would you qualify if a sermon werer a success or not, or to what degree of success it had been?

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Robert_Caritas]

I also have a question. When you’re talking about religion with someone and you’re getting to a point that you know will impact them and show that they are guilty, should you avoid it or not?

For example, I am thinking about when I want to talk about the importance of going to mass every week, but I know that the person I am speaking with doesn’t. Or about the importance of chastity, and the person that I am speaking with has given up on it. Etc. It often happens that perfectly normal conversations are going to naturally come around to a point that I feel in my heart is probably going to “slam” them.

I would never permit myself to try to correct someone’s attitude, or tell them how they should live – but what if this is going to happen indirectly? Meaning that the principle that is coming into discussion is something that they fail at. I’d like to insist that I don’t go fishing for people’s faults. These things just pop up in the flow of the conversation. My main way of dealing with it has been to change the flow of the conversation, but could it be a good thing for a Catholic to hear where they are failing (not by pointing a finger at them, but indirectly through conversation)? (I’m going to insist again that I would never go around telling people their flaws. I think that it is a pretty evil and self-gratifying thing to do – unless it is done in pure love and grace, something which is not so common.)
Or else, about the sermon, the sermons that have always touched me are the one's inspired by the Holy Spirit. When I was in France, I heard a few very intellectual sermons and didn't get much from them (though I did hear a life changing one by an African priest in Paris). Too much intellect can sometimes be bad. My personal opinion (humble and not very mature), is that a good sermon relates directly to and clarifies one of the principles laid out by Jesus Christ. When they get too philosophical or too common sensical and stray from the Gospel too far, they tend to be less inspiring -- though they can still be interesting.

 

[Dranu]

I think that in the end we should all follow St. Francis advice, to preach the Gospel everyday and sometimes when absolutely necessary we could even use some words.

Let’s pray we get the strenght to follow his advice.

Or we follow his contemporary St. Dominic and his order (Franciscans are great, just a different calling, and some indeed are called to verbal preaching).

 

[Franciscanguy]

on Francis- The sermons we have of his he’s pretty…not happy. He usually is directing it at the Brothers and he is not in their corner. Truth is, we don’t really have many of his sermons though. Perhaps the best “sermon” we have is the saying on “True Joy” which goes like this (and the Little Flowers Version is much later. This is the more original version)-

**"One day near St. Mary of the Angels, the blessed Francis called Friar Leo and said, ‘Friar Leo.’
‘Here I am,’ replied the other.
‘Write down what is true joy. If a messenger should arrive from Paris announcing that all the teachers from Paris had come into the Order, write down: true joy is not therein.
If all the prelates, archbishops and even the King of France and the King of England should join the Order, write down: true joy is not therein.
Further if all my friars should go among the infidels and convert them all to the faith, or if I should have so much grace from God that I heal the sick and work miracles, write down: true joy is not therein.
But what is perfect joy? I return from Perugia in the black of night and I come here and it is winter, muddy and so cold that icicles form on the hem of my tunic and strike against my legs without cease and draw blood from my wounds. Thus covered with mud, soaked and frozen I come to the door and after I call out and knock for a long time, a friar comes and asks: ‘Who are you?’ I answer, ‘Friar Francis,’ and he says: ‘Begone! This is not an hour to be wandering around!’ And since I insist and knock further, he answers: ‘Begone! You are a worthless fellow, a simpleton. Don’t come here anymore. We are just so many and have no need of you!’
I still knock on the door, and I say: ‘For the love of God give me shelter for this night.’ And he answers, ‘I will not. Go to the hospital of the Cruciferi and ask there.’

And if I endure all this patiently and without dismay, I say to you, therefore, that therein lies perfect joy, true virtue and the salvation of the soul." **

He did not say the “Preach the Gospel…” line either. That is in none of the sources.

Being passionate about something is fine. Just remember how you approach things will have consequences. If you go into an argument looking to “take someone out” than they will react to that. Also, be aware of language. It is generally a good idea to use language in the way they mean it so you can find common ground to start from. Of course, clarify to better understand. “So you are saying you are an athiest. Do you mean there is no God or that God doesn’t care about us?” Also, trying to convert someone almost never works. It is best to witness, discuss, learn, teach, and live along side someone for them to see the kind of life you life.

Francis met the Sultan of his day and comes back with his head. There is a source that is not franciscan that says that the sultan whispered in Francis’ ear “Pray that you and I may come to believe in the true religion” or something to that effect. Francis was with the Saracans for 2 weeks. We assume he taught, listened, prayed, and lived with. And in 2 weeks the Sultan had recognized the value of the life Francis was living.

That’s evangelizing.

 

[Semper_Zelare]

First of all let me qualify my post by saying I"m newly back to the Catholic Church, and I know just about nothing of who St. Francis was or what he taught, etc.

My question to you is: What do you think goes into making someone a great preacher? And more importantly, how would you qualify if a sermon werer a success or not, or to what degree of success it had been?

God Bless,
Bill

A good sermon would be one in which or through which the Holy Spirit worked. As long as you preach what the Holy Spirit wants you to, then it is successful.

We can’t define success on results. Because we’re not responsible for other people’s conversions, they are ultimately in charge of working out their salvation with fear and trembling- Philippians 2:2.

I think all the questions posed to me were in some way concerned about the person on the “receiving end” as it were, of the preaching. Well, as long as you preach the message of the Gospel, that’s all that matters. The audience shouldn’t be our primary concern, but knowing the Holy Spirit. If you know the Holy Spirit, He will give you the words to move the hearts of every person you preach to (if that’s His will).

When we get into arguments or conversations about religion with people, pray that the Holy Spirit will have equipped you with the words to speak. Our faith shouldn’t hinge on our ability to get a noticeable response or some crazy 180 degree transformation out of someone. If they walk away and will think about something you said, then that’s all that matters.

And, if preaching hasn’t made even one person reflect on anything, if it has fallen only on deaf ears… than praise God anyways, because He heard you, and He enjoyed His name to be glorified even amongst an audience entirely deaf to the Gospel.

I know all of this is theologically sound, because we serve Christ not men. If our faith is utterly consumed by Christ, then there will be fruit (whether we see it or not). But the more our faith worries about what the world thinks, what atheists or whoever thinks… about being politically correct, and not being rejected for what we say… the less fruit we will bear.

Preach the Gospel for the ears of Christ alone. If it’s good enough for Christ, it’s good enough for anyone. And if it gets you rejected, PRAISE GOD that you were rejected for it!!!