Being Obedient to your Husband

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petitsourice

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“Wives, be subordinate to your husbands, as is proper in the Lord.” (St. Paul, Col. 3:18)

This bit has just been a light chuckle for ages when it comes up every few years in the readings at Church.

Until recently…

I am married, we have 4 kids, we do NOT use contraception. On that note although we try to avoid having this many kids… lets just say that that week when you are supposed to abstain b/c of ovulation is “difficult” to get through. She looks at me funny and well, you know the rest. So… Married 6 years, 4 kids, not cafeteria catholics, both converts to the faith, etc. Standard stereotypical Catholic household with the exception that we held different political views until about 2 years ago when one of us changed sides.

I digress.

There you have the background, now a bit of a few of my thoughts on what St. Paul meant.

What he meant:
??? I am honestly, not 100% sure. And in the 15 minutes I have to write this before I have to start work, I am not sure if I can figure it out.

What he did NOT mean:
  • If daddy wants to do something mean to the children, you should be obedient and allow it.
  • Spouse’s word should be considered gospel (either his or hers)
I mention this bc a Protestant I know has 4 of his own kids. He is divorced from the mother of these kids. He recently married the wicked witch of the west - whom I know personally as she is my sister in law who was pregnant with another man’s child when she married him, let him put his name on the birth certificate, and had another kid by yet another man already. These 2 other men are real pieces of work too – think testosterone pumped teenaged idiots who only need a crack habit to complete themselves but who haven’t yet jumped off that bridge.

He has faithfully adopted all of her children (though not on paper). They call him dad and his own kids mother is absent / struggling with a (meth or crack) addiction. He LOVES her children.

Recently I have learned that she has done the following:
  • Left him because he chose to pray with a woman (his Aunt) who was taking care of the kids in the church nursery during a service. What happened is this woman did not bring out one of her crying kids to her when the kid was asking for her. She was gone for about 15 mins and came home.
  • During the fight leading up to this she berated him for at least 2 hours with taunts such as, “Come on [baby’s name] I’ll take you to see your real daddy.” “I’ll call your real daddy to come get you. And he’ll kick HIS *** while he’s here.” etc. Just fighting incredibly dirty. My wife was there for this to pick her up / take her somewhere else and actually threatened to leave her there if she didn’t quit.
  • Consitently puts his kids 2nd (he is out of town a LOT for work so she has the kids alone for ages) Examples of this:
  • His kids have to clean up the house, including 2 4 year olds, a 7 year old, and a 12 year old. But her kid (age 3) gets to sit by the wayside and doesn’t have to help. (yes, 3 yos can help cleaning --all of mine have done so)
  • Buys happy meal at mcdonalds for her kid, but throws a 20 piece of nuggets to the back for his kids. “Only [her kid’s name] gets happy meals Ms. [My WIFE].” --4 year olds to my wife when she was buying the kids something to eat
  • doesn’t let the 7 y.o. eat until he finishes homework, typically without help
  • has told the 7 yo he is stupid when he can’t get a new word – which my wife taught him after seeing this happen in under 15 minutes and then discovered the kid had been trying to learn the word all afternoon and was hungry
  • shows affection to her kid only, even though the others are desperate for motherly attention
  • made his kids change schools for the sake of convenience so she could have them dropped off by bus at a relatives house in another district after school so she doesn’t have to deal with them
  • kept a 12 page journal of everything his kids did wrong while he was out of town once – can you image being nitpicked like this when you are 4???
  • kicked the 12 year old out of the house several times already
  • regularly hits her husband - you know, closed fisted, all out, leaves a nice big nasty bruise wherever she makes contact. Oh, and yea, we know about this bc his kids have mentioned it
  • Tells the kids that gifts they receive from their biological mom were probably stolen even when the kids were exstatic to have gotten something from their mom – remember, these kids are trying to make the best of a really [explicative] situation. So it breaks my heart that they are not allowed to be happy about getting a gift.
  • when its time to buy a toy in the grocery store, only her kid gets one… we know again b/c of what the other kids have said
Reread all of that and think about it from a 4 and 7 year old’s perspective.

All of her kids in my opinion are being psychologically abused.
 
Part 2

Now… back to the scripture. For some reason, he is hell bent on believing that its:
  1. God
  2. Wife
  3. Kids
Now that formula IS taught in many circles (including in Catholic ones). However this woman is not above lying to him about what his kids have done. The woman is BAAAAADLY bipolar and the recent outburst happened when she decided to quit taking her medication.

His original marriage has of course not been annulled (he is not Catholic) and my God, is he ever a good man.

But my take on the scripture quoted is that men are indeed leaders of the house, but a GOOD captain knows to listen to his 1st Mate. I consider myself a spiritual leader of the house – I support going to church every week, am the one who leads many of the prayers in the home, and I have to put on a good example of how to treat a woman for my boys and so my girls know how nice love can be. Thats my definition of being the “head” of the family. I expect my wife to tell me when I am out of line, and guess what – she obliges. And when we are out of line (ie. I think child X needs some one on one attention – he/she is not behaving properly and I think what you are doing is not helping).

One horrible heresy is to think that you must ALWAYS put your spouse above your children. I am not saying he needs a divorce. But I think that he could benefit from a clearer head. THey are only in their 1st year or so of marriage and honestly the 1st year is rough compared to year 2… and year 2 is rough compared to year 3… but oh wow… year 3+ is like a VERY fine wine. Having kids early in marriage is a good thing because of these difficulties. Its a lot easier to throw in that towel without your little ones to wrap their arms around daddy / mommy’s neck and cry about them leaving.

And no, there isn’t much we can do legally. Even with his name on that birth certificate, she can get a judge to order a DNA test that will prove he is not the father. We all have had these sort of horrible fights in our marriages where we say hurtful, nasty things. But she is ruining these kids. They CRAVE a decent woman who will treat them decently and who will show them some affection. It [explicative withheld] me off, yes the swearing is warranted… His kids are GOOD kids – and her 3 yo is a GOOD kid when he is around him.

So, my 2 cents. Had to throw it out there lest someone else suffer from the Wicked Stepmother Heresy. Men being the head of a family does NOT mean neglecting the kids for the sake of him. Leaving an abusive spouse is a good thing. Especially when that spouse is destroying kids.
 
This is exactly why I like the Church’s teaching on women.

CBS,ABC,NBC Teaching: Men and Women are identical
Other Teaching: Women are subservient and beneath Man
Church Teaching: Men and women are NOT identical. And each has beautiful qualities and something to contribute in their own way to the world.

Want a list of female Saints? =) I LIKE my daughter knowing how important women are to the Church. I also like that at age 6 she is aware of how girls and boys handle things differently and that she has some cute aspirations of being a mom + getting married one day.
 
petitsourice said:
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All of her kids in my opinion are being psychologically abused.
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a lot of drama and I don’t see the link with the story at the beginning of the thread

if a person in a position to observe thinks a child is being abused and does not intervene or report, he is approving, aiding, and abetting the abuse. If this dad “loved” his kids and his wife he would remove them from the abusive situation and get this woman the help she needs.
 
petitsourice said:
Now… back to the scripture. For some reason, he is hell bent on believing that its:
  1. God
  2. Wife
  3. Kids
Now that formula IS taught in many circles (including in Catholic ones). However this woman is not above lying to him about what his kids have done. The woman is BAAAAADLY bipolar and the recent outburst happened when she decided to quit taking her medication.

His original marriage has of course not been annulled (he is not Catholic) and my God, is he ever a good man.

But my take on the scripture quoted is that men are indeed leaders of the house, but a GOOD captain knows to listen to his 1st Mate. I consider myself a spiritual leader of the house – I support going to church every week, am the one who leads many of the prayers in the home, and I have to put on a good example of how to treat a woman for my boys and so my girls know how nice love can be. Thats my definition of being the “head” of the family. I expect my wife to tell me when I am out of line, and guess what – she obliges. And when we are out of line (ie. I think child X needs some one on one attention – he/she is not behaving properly and I think what you are doing is not helping).

One horrible heresy is to think that you must ALWAYS put your spouse above your children.
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First, I would be interested to see what reference you are using to attest that always putting your spouse before your children is a heresy. I imagine this is your opinion and not Church teaching. I mention that because independent of emotion, this is always true. It is the persons responsibility primarily to bring their spouse to eternal life. If their marriage is valid, he maintains that responsibility, separation or no separation, difficulty or no difficulty. This may not be in the form most people think of, but he should be praying for her and constantly trying to repair the relationship and help his spouse overcome difficulty.

That being said, he does have an obligation to his children. Often times there are ways to work on both simultaneously and sometimes what is best for the wife is a temporary separation from the children but the end should be the benefit of both, not just the children. You cannot just dump the wife because you think she is a lost cause or a terrible person.

Now, in a technicality, he is not actually married to the second woman so some of this does not apply. I know he is protestant, but all that means is that the first marriage is considered valid by the Church and since that marriage is not annulled, he is still married to the first wife in the eyes of the Church. So a lot of what you are talking about is applicable to the first woman, not the second since the second is an adulterous affair on his part (until nullity is proclaimed at which time it just becomes fornication). He may be free from mortal sin on this due to his ignorance, but ignorance does not make his first marriage invalid by default nor does his religious preference. The Church alone has the power to determine a marriage null and since his first marriage would have been considered valid (most likely not knowing the details) it would take an act of nullity, not a piece of divorce paper, to break the responsibility he has for his first and only wife.

Now, again, there are details that cannot be overlooked with his “adopted” children and his girlfriend because as a Christian, he cannot leave them to die but legally he has no right to them nor does he have a legal obligation to them, it is just Christian charity that would oblige him to care for those children which are not his.

If there is really a problem with child abuse, parental rights can be ignored so the fact that he is not the blood father does not mean that he cannot get the children if she is an unfit mother. It makes it near impossible, but not completely impossible. You would have to prove the father’s household is not fit for children and the grandparents and possibly nearest blood relative are all unfit, but it can be done. The thing to do is to adopt the children legally and then work to separate the children from the parent if it is really a harm to be with her. The parent would likely learn something and the children would be protected legally and emotionally. Without legal adoption, it is tough and the government can get to the bottom of what is now hearsay. In my experience, though limited, it is never a one person’s fault situation. There is always something the other party has done to aggravate the situation though it sounds like your friend did nothing wrong except make some bad decision on who to trust.

Prayers are needed first and foremost and the rest will work out. You covered a lot of bases in your post so I apologize for the wandering but there is a lot going on there. Keep in mind I am not a legal expert, but I do have some experience in my family with an unfit mother (my sister) and legal protection of the children (my niece). Your friend has a lot on his plate and “fixing” the girlfriend is likely not going to happen with her in the house but it does not mean his priority does not remain God, spouse, children.

God Bless.
 
OchsFam said:
First, I would be interested to see what reference you are using to attest that always putting your spouse before your children is a heresy. I imagine this is your opinion and not Church teaching.
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True - but a heresy does not have to be defined by the Church to be a heresy.

And all heresies have a thread of truth woven into them.

Correct – his 2nd marriage is invalid (but considering the requirements for annulment are SOOOOO easy, all marriages are invalid these days).

And yea, he has an obligation to protect his kids, but he is putting the marriage above that. It would be best if he could work on both, but not always possible. And the paternity tests could be used to get him off of the birth certificate.

Its a sad situation. Her entire family is pretty upset with her about what she is doing to the kids.

And in terms of the legal system – this is the united states. Moms get custody 99.9% of the time, even in horrible situations. And if a man has no biological claim, he can’t get /her/ kids.

Its just sad.
 
petitsourice said:
Correct – his 2nd marriage is invalid (but considering the requirements for annulment are SOOOOO easy, all marriages are invalid these days).
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Well, it would depend but I think you should talk to someone who is going through the process. I would argue that it is not as easy as you think. Unless there is a major problem with the first marriage (she was Catholic and they married outside the Church, either were drunk, forced to be married, etc.) it is a year long process at which time he would be asked to live with his girlfriend as if they were brother and sister.
petitsourice said:
And yea, he has an obligation to protect his kids, but he is putting the marriage above that. It would be best if he could work on both, but not always possible. And the paternity tests could be used to get him off of the birth certificate.

Its a sad situation. Her entire family is pretty upset with her about what she is doing to the kids.

And in terms of the legal system – this is the united states. Moms get custody 99.9% of the time, even in horrible situations. And if a man has no biological claim, he can’t get /her/ kids.

Its just sad.
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While I agree that the outlook is bleak, this is the true purpose of what he is called to as a father. He must be willing to fight the battle if it is what would be best for all parties involved which is what it sounds like to me. I am no expert, but I think he needs to work on getting custody of the children through adoption. Once he has a legal right to the children, the rest will fall into place. It would also be helpful for him to contact the child protection agency nearby if there is really a problem of abuse. My mother just received custody of my niece from her mother and father without even being a legal guardian so it is possible but it must be for the welfare of the children and without legal paperwork, it would likely be temporary until the mother was deemed fit by the government.

If it is serious, inaction would be a sin on his part even if it looks hopeless. It is his obligation as a father to his spouse (or girlfriend) and his children.

God Bless.
 
OchsFam said:
Well, it would depend but I think you should talk to someone who is going through the process. I would argue that it is not as easy as you think. Unless there is a major problem with the first marriage (she was Catholic and they married outside the Church, either were drunk, forced to be married, etc.) it is a year long process at which time he would be asked to live with his girlfriend as if they were brother and sister.
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… or in my situation. I was Catholic, married outside of the Church (we eloped), she was /technically/ not baptized – she was baptized in Jesus name only (an acts 2:38 thing), then we went to the local clergy like the next day, and started the process of getting the marriage formally acknowledged by the Church. Creepily, I recently read the canon law on annulment after Pope Benedict clarified some of the wording. That’s a way for us to get an annulment. There are lots of ways that pretty much anyone can get one and I wish the Conf of Catholic Bishops would do something about that. Thats an area that really needs some clarification. Nothing in it is ex cathedra so it should not be too difficult to get some better guidelines.
OchsFam said:
While I agree that the outlook is bleak, this is the true purpose of what he is called to as a father.
Agreed. He has to fight this battle. He knew what he was getting into when he put the ring on her finger as well. And I agree that if he were to get adoptive rights that would HELP their marriage.
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In my opinion, it is serious because we’re dealing with GREAT kids who could easily end up on meth later. Its just sad. Physically serious? No. But oh wow, is it ever destroying those kids. They are begging to leave and go live somewhere else.

Anyway, I think my point is that a woman can be faithful to the marriage and still walk out the front door. And so can a man. Living together is not married. And living in separate houses is not divorced.
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[/QUOTE]
 
I think this is the only verse of the Bible that my husband knows by heart. He pulls it out of the air any time he wants me to do something questionable like cheat on our taxes, not give back the extra change a clerk mistakenly gave us, try to get an older kid into a movie/event at the little kid price, etc. He has yet to use the verse in a context that I don’t find morally objectionable, so I was wondering how I’m supposed to obey this verse without committing a sin.
 
I always love when people try to use that text out of context…how about the second part of it…Husbands LOVE your wives!!
 
Cara_Serrano said:
I think this is the only verse of the Bible that my husband knows by heart. He pulls it out of the air any time he wants me to do something questionable like cheat on our taxes, not give back the extra change a clerk mistakenly gave us, try to get an older kid into a movie/event at the little kid price, etc. He has yet to use the verse in a context that I don’t find morally objectionable, so I was wondering how I’m supposed to obey this verse without committing a sin.
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I would think it should be pretty obvious that there is no need to obey anyone seeking to lead you into sinful behavior.

Usagi
 
Cara_Serrano said:
I think this is the only verse of the Bible that my husband knows by heart. He pulls it out of the air any time he wants me to do something questionable like cheat on our taxes, not give back the extra change a clerk mistakenly gave us, try to get an older kid into a movie/event at the little kid price, etc. He has yet to use the verse in a context that I don’t find morally objectionable, so I was wondering how I’m supposed to obey this verse without committing a sin.
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LOL. You remind me of what my wife and I do to each other. Hehe. We keep each other honest.
 
In my house I am the King! And I have my wife’s permission to say so!

And further, I always get the Last Word! Yes, Dear.
 
Usagi said:
I would think it should be pretty obvious that there is no need to obey anyone seeking to lead you into sinful behavior.

Usagi
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Yes of course it’s obvious I don’t have to obey him when he wants me to sin. I was just hoping there would be some times when I could obey him without sinning.
 
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