Being "Pastoral"

[Ambrose]

Question for those in the know.

In discussions with friends and from what I’ve seen recently on the internet, there seems to be a emphasis, maybe a new emphasis on ‘being more pastoral.’ Am I wrong to be concerned that this is an out for left wing Catholics who want to excuse the Churches teaching on hot button issues dealing with sexuality in order to make people feel better about themselves, and/or their sin ?

Is there really a change in how this is done ? For many, they seem to claim in the past we’ve, or more precisely, the clergy have been judgmental and overly dogmatic in dealing with people.

I’m suspicious b/c I never knew this was the case & I really feel some are exploiting Pope Francis again.

Thoughts ?

 

[Ambrose]

OK, I can buy that. It seems there may be a subliminal message there that in the past as you see it, we haven’t been as loving ? We’ve just spouted out doctrine and walked away ?

 

[MaryT777]

Good question…

 

[pianistclare]

No, but some people have a take or leave it attitude. And don’t bother to get the know the person and see where they went astray in the first place. Being pastoral means meeting them where they are…not assuming they are beyond redemption.

Others, on the outside of a situation may indeed “think” that priests or Spiritual Directors are giving leeway where there is none, but truly we can’t know the personal scenarios that they are dealing with. They may be assisting a person to work through the corrections and doctrine. It’s a process. Once that can’t be shortened to “well, you’re doing it wrong, so go away and don’t be Catholic anymore.”

We see a lot of this. People always seem to think that others are “getting away” with things.

 

[Ambrose]

No, but some people have a take or leave it attitude. And don’t bother to get the know the person and see where they went astray in the first place. Being pastoral means meeting them where they are…not assuming they are beyond redemption.

Others, on the outside of a situation may indeed “think” that priests or Spiritual Directors are giving leeway where there is none, but truly we can’t know the personal scenarios that they are dealing with. They may be assisting a person to work through the corrections and doctrine. It’s a process. Once that can’t be shortened to “well, you’re doing it wrong, so go away and don’t be Catholic anymore.”

We see a lot of this. People always seem to think that others are “getting away” with things.

Thank you ! I think thats a good answer. I remember reading in I think it was “Witness to Hope” That when JP II would discuss issues as a young priest in Poland with young couples he would present the faith but in the end he would pretty much always say “you have to decide…”

 

[pianistclare]

Thank you ! I think thats a good answer. I remember reading in I think it was “Witness to Hope” That when JP II would discuss issues as a young priest in Poland with young couples he would present the faith but in the end he would pretty much always say “you have to decide…”

:shamrock2:



Happy Feast of St. Patrick!

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

You can use the truth to build a bridge between you and the other person, or you can use the truth to be a club to beat down the other person.

I don’t think its a matter of either being pastoral or being faithful, its a both/and situation.

 

[johnnyc176]

Question for those in the know.

In discussions with friends and from what I’ve seen recently on the internet, there seems to be a emphasis, maybe a new emphasis on ‘being more pastoral.’ Am I wrong to be concerned that this is an out for left wing Catholics who want to excuse the Churches teaching on hot button issues dealing with sexuality in order to make people feel better about themselves, and/or their sin ?

Is there really a change in how this is done ? For many, they seem to claim in the past we’ve, or more precisely, the clergy have been judgmental and overly dogmatic in dealing with people.

I’m suspicious b/c I never knew this was the case & I really feel some are exploiting Pope Francis again.

Thoughts ?

Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you (compassion). Go your way, and from now on do not sin again (conversion).”

Compassion for this life, conversion for the next. Many want to focus on that first part (compassion) while ignoring the second (conversion) but both are pastoral and done out of love.

One of the missions given to the Catholic Church by Christ is the salvation of souls. The identification and condemnation of sin is necessary for that mission. It is, in fact, a spiritual work of mercy.

 

[Sunbreak]

I don’t think it’s an either/or situation. Parish priests ideally will be attentive to church law and pastoral. If it comes down to it, I’ll take the priest who comes to see me in the hospital or takes the time to explain something over the one that acts like it’s what I say or the highway.

 

[Xantippe]

OK, I can buy that. It seems there may be a subliminal message there that in the past as you see it, we haven’t been as loving ? We’ve just spouted out doctrine and walked away ?

Well, yeah.

Being systematically compassionate toward the trials of gay Catholics, for instance, is a relatively new thing. (I’m sure it happened on an individual basis, but it wasn’t addressed at a high level.)

In the not so distant past, there would not have been such a thing as a support group for Catholics with same sex attraction issues. That is a new thing.

There also has to be a bit of overcorrection for the fact that to this day, people who call themselves Christians are often not very good at distinguishing between hating the sin and hating the sinner. In fact, it can often seem like they hate the sinner way more than they hate the sin.

 

[frizzgrig]

Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you (compassion). Go your way, and from now on do not sin again (conversion).”

Compassion for this life, conversion for the next. Many want to focus on that first part (compassion) while ignoring the second (conversion) but both are pastoral and done out of love.

One of the missions given to the Catholic Church by Christ is the salvation of souls. The identification and condemnation of sin is necessary for that mission. It is, in fact, a spiritual work of mercy.

Remember Jesus also said:

John 3:17-18

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

and John 12:44-49

Whoever believes in me believes not only in me but also in the one who sent me, and whoever sees me sees the one who sent me. I came into the world as light, so that everyone who believes in me might not remain in darkness. And if anyone hears my words and does not observe them, I do not condemn him, for I did not come to condemn the world but to save the world. Whoever rejects me and does not accept my words has something to judge him: the word that I spoke, it will condemn him on the last day, because I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and speak.

and finally Matthew 5:19

Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

The sinner already knows his sin. You should see that he also knows the love of God, the compassion of God, and that the mercy of God through Jesus is there for the asking. You should be found holding out your hand in assistance, not using it to push people away from the grace of God.

Being “pastoral” is not about being wishy-washy about the Truth. Being pastoral is about meeting people where they are and helping them get to where the should be as beloved children of God. For most it is a life long struggle.

 

[johnnyc176]

Remember Jesus also said:

John 3:17-18

and John 12:44-49

and finally Matthew 5:19

And He said…

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. John 14:15…love requires obedience.

lol don’t want to get into the protestant game of dueling Bible verses.

The sinner already knows his sin.

Unfortunately we hear all too often of clergy going against the teachings of Jesus Christ to assume that. Not too mention ‘catholic’ politicians and other laity.

You should see that he also knows the love of God, the compassion of God, and that the mercy of God through Jesus is there for the asking. You should be found holding out your hand in assistance, not using it to push people away from the grace of God.

Being “pastoral” is not about being wishy-washy about the Truth. Being pastoral is about meeting people where they are and helping them get to where the should be as beloved children of God. For most it is a life long struggle.

How did you get ‘pushing people away’ from what I said? I said identification and condemnation of sin. Not the sinner. Again, three of the spiritual works of mercy are to instruct the ignorant, counsel the doubtful and.to admonish sinners. Should I assume that you are leading people astray in your failure to instruct,counsel or admonish? Remember in Catholicism…both/and.

 

[frizzgrig]

And He said…

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments. John 14:15…love requires obedience.

lol don’t want to get into the protestant game of dueling Bible verses.

That is addressed in John 12:44-49 - if you don’t love Him you will condemn yourself.

Unfortunately we hear all too often of clergy going against the teachings of Jesus Christ to assume that. Not too mention ‘catholic’ politicians and other laity.

To be fully accountable for mortal sin, the sinner must have knowledge that what they are doing is grave matter, freely chose to do what is sinful, still do the act. From this it is reasonable to say the sinner already knows his sins because if he does not know his actions are sinful he is not fully accountable for the acts. There are those things that are objectively sinful, but a person who is ignorant of that fact, through no fault of his own, at worst commits a venial sin.

How did you get ‘pushing people away’ from what I said? I said identification and condemnation of sin. Not the sinner. Again, three of the spiritual works of mercy are to instruct the ignorant, counsel the doubtful and.to admonish sinners. Should I assume that you are leading people astray in your failure to instruct,counsel or admonish? Remember in Catholicism…both/and.

Combined with the original post, and addressing a wider audience than just you (the forums are read by many) I felt there was a strong possibility people would read your post, particularly the part

The identification and condemnation of sin is necessary for that mission. It is, in fact, a spiritual work of mercy.

and then feel they are justified in treating someone less than charitably because of real or perceived sinfulness. All too often people are quick to point out the speck in their brother’s eye, while forgetting to respect the dignity of the other person who also is made in the image and likeness of God.

Peace,

Deacon Patrick

 

[johnnyc176]

That is addressed in John 12:44-49 - if you don’t love Him you will condemn yourself.

Jesus calls us to follow Him also. Their are many who profess to loving Jesus but have different ways of following Him that are not in accordance to the Truth. That’s why we evangelize.

To be fully accountable for mortal sin, the sinner must have knowledge that what they are doing is grave matter, freely chose to do what is sinful, still do the act. From this it is reasonable to say the sinner already knows his sins because if he does not know his actions are sinful he is not fully accountable for the acts. There are those things that are objectively sinful, but a person who is ignorant of that fact, through no fault of his own, at worst commits a venial sin.

At some point in time though you would have to address the sin, no? If you see your friend not going to Mass and ask him about it and he says no big deal Jesus wouldn’t mind. Assuming you think it is a ‘big deal’ do you leave it at that because he is ignorant of Jesus’s commandments? Wouldn’t it be more loving to inform him he is going against God’s wishes? And if you went that far with it would you not advise him to go to confession?

Combined with the original post, and addressing a wider audience than just you (the forums are read by many) I felt there was a strong possibility people would read your post, particularly the part

and then feel they are justified in treating someone less than charitably because of real or perceived sinfulness. All too often people are quick to point out the speck in their brother’s eye, while forgetting to respect the dignity of the other person who also is made in the image and likeness of God.

Peace,

Deacon Patrick

And hopefully you took the speck out of your eye before that assumption was made.